What Are Creationists Afraid Of?

The New Individualist ^ | 1/2006 | Ed Hudgins

[Retain Mike]

Your idea that the snowflake is more complex is a value judgement. The water was water before and it is water afterwards. The snowflake is formed by hydrogen bonding. How you get to the double helix from methane is another matter.

[Elsie]

I think it was mostly because they had no important rivals. The Persian empire had been tamed several centuries earlier, by Alexander. The Roman Republic took over the Greeks, wiped out Carthage, and absorbed Egypt (which was a Greek-ruled shadow of its ancient self). Rome was the only superpower in its part of the world when the once-virtuous Republic was devoured by the Imperial form of government.

 

Like this:

 

Daniel 2

 

 1.  In the second year of his reign, Nebuchadnezzar had dreams; his mind was troubled and he could not sleep.
 2.  So the king summoned the magicians, enchanters, sorcerers and astrologers to tell him what he had dreamed. When they came in and stood before the king,
 3.  he said to them, "I have had a dream that troubles me and I want to know what it means. "
 4.  Then the astrologers answered the king in Aramaic,  "O king, live forever! Tell your servants the dream, and we will interpret it."
 5.  The king replied to the astrologers, "This is what I have firmly decided: If you do not tell me what my dream was and interpret it, I will have you cut into pieces and your houses turned into piles of rubble.
 6.  But if you tell me the dream and explain it, you will receive from me gifts and rewards and great honor. So tell me the dream and interpret it for me."
 7.  Once more they replied, "Let the king tell his servants the dream, and we will interpret it."
 8.  Then the king answered, "I am certain that you are trying to gain time, because you realize that this is what I have firmly decided:
 9.  If you do not tell me the dream, there is just one penalty for you. You have conspired to tell me misleading and wicked things, hoping the situation will change. So then, tell me the dream, and I will know that you can interpret it for me."
 10.  The astrologers answered the king, "There is not a man on earth who can do what the king asks! No king, however great and mighty, has ever asked such a thing of any magician or enchanter or astrologer.
 11.  What the king asks is too difficult. No one can reveal it to the king except the gods, and they do not live among men."
 12.  This made the king so angry and furious that he ordered the execution of all the wise men of Babylon.
 13.  So the decree was issued to put the wise men to death, and men were sent to look for Daniel and his friends to put them to death.
 14.  When Arioch, the commander of the king's guard, had gone out to put to death the wise men of Babylon, Daniel spoke to him with wisdom and tact.
 15.  He asked the king's officer, "Why did the king issue such a harsh decree?" Arioch then explained the matter to Daniel.
 16.  At this, Daniel went in to the king and asked for time, so that he might interpret the dream for him.
 17.  Then Daniel returned to his house and explained the matter to his friends Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah.
 18.  He urged them to plead for mercy from the God of heaven concerning this mystery, so that he and his friends might not be executed with the rest of the wise men of Babylon.
 19.  During the night the mystery was revealed to Daniel in a vision. Then Daniel praised the God of heaven
 20.  and said: "Praise be to the name of God for ever and ever; wisdom and power are his.
 21.  He changes times and seasons; he sets up kings and deposes them. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the discerning.
 22.  He reveals deep and hidden things; he knows what lies in darkness, and light dwells with him.
 23.  I thank and praise you, O God of my fathers: You have given me wisdom and power, you have made known to me what we asked of you, you have made known to us the dream of the king."
 24.  Then Daniel went to Arioch, whom the king had appointed to execute the wise men of Babylon, and said to him, "Do not execute the wise men of Babylon. Take me to the king, and I will interpret his dream for him."
 25.  Arioch took Daniel to the king at once and said, "I have found a man among the exiles from Judah who can tell the king what his dream means."
 26.  The king asked Daniel (also called Belteshazzar), "Are you able to tell me what I saw in my dream and interpret it?"
 27.  Daniel replied, "No wise man, enchanter, magician or diviner can explain to the king the mystery he has asked about,
 28.  but there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries. He has shown King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen in days to come. Your dream and the visions that passed through your mind as you lay on your bed are these:
 29.  "As you were lying there, O king, your mind turned to things to come, and the revealer of mysteries showed you what is going to happen.
 30.  As for me, this mystery has been revealed to me, not because I have greater wisdom than other living men, but so that you, O king, may know the interpretation and that you may understand what went through your mind.
 31.  "You looked, O king, and there before you stood a large statue--an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. 
 32.  The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze,
 33.  its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay.
 34.  While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them.
 35.  Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.
 36.  "This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king.
 37.  You, O king, are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory;
 38.  in your hands he has placed mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds of the air. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.
 39.  "After you, another kingdom will rise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth.
 40.  Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron--for iron breaks and smashes everything--and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others.
 41.  Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay.
 42.  As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle.
 43.  And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.
 44.  "In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.
 45.  This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands--a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces.   "The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and the interpretation is trustworthy."
 46.  Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell prostrate before Daniel and paid him honor and ordered that an offering and incense be presented to him.
 47.  The king said to Daniel, "Surely your God is the God of gods and the Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, for you were able to reveal this mystery."
 48.  Then the king placed Daniel in a high position and lavished many gifts on him. He made him ruler over the entire province of Babylon and placed him in charge of all its wise men.
 49.  Moreover, at Daniel's request the king appointed Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego administrators over the province of Babylon, while Daniel himself remained at the royal court.

 

 

Daniel 5

 22.  "But you his son,  O Belshazzar, have not humbled yourself, though you knew all this.
 23.  Instead, you have set yourself up against the Lord of heaven. You had the goblets from his temple brought to you, and you and your nobles, your wives and your concubines drank wine from them. You praised the gods of silver and gold, of bronze, iron, wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or understand. But you did not honor the God who holds in his hand your life and all your ways.
 24.  Therefore he sent the hand that wrote the inscription.
 25.  "This is the inscription that was written: MENE, MENE, TEKEL, PARSIN
 26.  "This is what these words mean: Mene : God has numbered the days of your reign and brought it to an end.
 27.  Tekel : You have been weighed on the scales and found wanting.
 28.  Peres : Your kingdom is divided and given to the Medes and Persians."
 29.  Then at Belshazzar's command, Daniel was clothed in purple, a gold chain was placed around his neck, and he was proclaimed the third highest ruler in the kingdom.
 30.  That very night Belshazzar, king of the Babylonians,  was slain,
 31.  and Darius the Mede took over the kingdom, at the age of sixty-two.

 

 Daniel 6

 28.  So Daniel prospered during the reign of Darius and the reign of Cyrus  the Persian.

 

 Daniel 8

 19.  He said: "I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.
 20.  The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia.
 21.  The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king. (Alexander)
 22.  The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.

 

 

[Elsie]

The last hopeful resort of someone who rejects evolution and has lost the argument cares about those who do: Start quoting scripture.

[Creationist]

I don't "presume" a multibillion year old earth, I know it. Though the thought of man living with dinosaurs is cute.

Who was there to record this historical event. Because fossils are only dead bones, man is the only one who can take a pigs tooth and say it was a man construct what he looks like and even know what his wife looked like.

Man is the only one that thinks that two different set of bones are related, there is no way on God's green earth that you could tell if one gave birth to the other. Dating of rocks with all the dating methods has flaws. The human race has not been dating rocks with radioactive decay long enough to know if the rate of decay are not effected by all the worldly variables. Every thing you believe in is faith based as much as Christian religion.

[Elsie]

"Don't ping me to a homo thread."

PH to Elsie a couple of days ago.

[Elsie]

The concept of liberty comes straight from the Christian Bible. (See post #1091)

Note that this fact has no bearing on any argument about the existence of God.

2 Corinthians 3:17

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[Coyoteman]

The human race has not been dating rocks with radioactive decay long enough to know if the rate of decay are not effected by all the worldly variables.

Here are some good links on radiocarbon dating. The principal is the same as radiometric dating (but I don't know as much about that field).

(By the way, most of these links are by religious organizations, so that should provide some credence, as many creationists won't believe a thing evolutionists say.)

ReligiousTolerance.org Carbon-14 Dating (C-14): Beliefs of New-Earth Creationists

The American Scientific Affiliation: Science in Christian Perspective Radiometric Dating: A Christian Perspective by Dr. Roger C. Wiens.

This site, BiblicalChronologist.org has a series of good articles on radiocarbon dating.

Are tree-ring chronologies reliable? (The Biblical Chronologist, Vol. 5, No. 1)

How does the radiocarbon dating method work? (The Biblical Chronologist, Vol. 5, No. 1)

How precise is radiocarbon dating?

Is radiocarbon dating based on assumptions?

Has radiocarbon dating been invalidated by unreasonable results?

Tree Ring and C14 Dating

Radiocarbon WEB-info Radiocarbon Laboratory, University of Waikato, New Zealand.

[RunningWolf]

man is the only one who can take a pigs tooth and say it was a man construct what he looks like and even know what his wife looked like

That is a good example.

I saw all the exhibits at the largest museums too. I could say they were full of audacity, but more to the truth I think they were totally seduced by the illusion as some are now.

Wolf

[CarolinaGuitarman]

[From many - one.]

Unhuh.

From the time of Adam to the time of Noah....no rain.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

Coward.

[PatrickHenry]

That didn't work out quite as expected.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

We'll see.

[little jeremiah]

I'll say it to your face. You are puerile, vengeful, disgusting and you have no arguments except throwing excrement just like your supposed ancestors. Your fixation with simian ancestors illustrates that you will likely inhabit such lowly life forms in your next lifetime; since you are not utilizing your human form wisely.

Since pictures of dogs crapping is your method of debate, you deserve whatever you get.

I hope visions of your comments fill your nightime dreams.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

I disagree. :)

[longshadow]

"Puerile, vengeful, & disgusting" placemarker!

[PatrickHenry]

O horrible man! I'm going to hit the abuse bu--
[*poof*]

[Heartlander]

Do you believe that "colorless green ideas sleep furiously?"

That is actually mindless in a zen-like way… Is green actually green and what is ’furiously’ in the world that spawns consciousness from mindlessness? Ideas are not material - or are they?.

Ignorance is what I’m trying to expose and stupidity is what evolution proclaims in regard to purpose and direction. A world void of design and intelligence is a world of stupidity and those who believe stupidity to be the cause of there existence may ask, "colorless green ideas sleep furiously?"

I direct these ’stupid’ people to stupid garage sales - - -

For Sale: Rare and unique glass figurines. Different shapes and sizes. Made from broken beer bottles. All most go – please bring broom and pan.

-Enjoy!

[Elsie]

 

Even the Ten Commandments don't oppose lying, just bearing false witness.

 

Yup; it sure appears that way...

 

Exodus 20: 16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

 

also...

 

Deuteronomy 5:20  "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

 

There's also:

 

NIV Joshua 2:1-6

 

 1.  Then Joshua son of Nun secretly sent two spies from Shittim. "Go, look over the land," he said, "especially Jericho." So they went and entered the house of a prostitute  named Rahab and stayed there.
 2.  The king of Jericho was told, "Look! Some of the Israelites have come here tonight to spy out the land."
 3.  So the king of Jericho sent this message to Rahab: "Bring out the men who came to you and entered your house, because they have come to spy out the whole land."
 4.  But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, "Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from.
 5.  At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, the men left. I don't know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them."   <-- Big, Fat LIE!!!!
 6.  (But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.)

 

NIV Joshua 6:17
   The city and all that is in it are to be devoted  to the LORD. Only Rahab the prostitute  and all who are with her in her house shall be spared, because she hid the spies we sent.

 

NIV Joshua 6:23
   So the young men who had done the spying went in and brought out Rahab, her father and mother and brothers and all who belonged to her. They brought out her entire family and put them in a place outside the camp of Israel.

 

NIV Joshua 6:25
   But Joshua spared Rahab the prostitute, with her family and all who belonged to her, because she hid the men Joshua had sent as spies to Jericho--and she lives among the Israelites to this day.

 

NIV Matthew 1:1-17

 1.  A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
 2.  Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
 3.  Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar, Perez the father of Hezron, Hezron the father of Ram, 
 4.  Ram the father of Amminadab, Amminadab the father of Nahshon, Nahshon the father of Salmon,
 5.  Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab, Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth, Obed the father of Jesse,
 6.  and Jesse the father of King David. David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah's wife,
 7.  Solomon the father of Rehoboam, Rehoboam the father of Abijah, Abijah the father of Asa,
 8.  Asa the father of Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram, Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
 9.  Uzziah the father of Jotham, Jotham the father of Ahaz, Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
 10.  Hezekiah the father of Manasseh, Manasseh the father of Amon, Amon the father of Josiah,
 11.  and Josiah the father of Jeconiah  and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
 12.  After the exile to Babylon: Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel, Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
 13.  Zerubbabel the father of Abiud, Abiud the father of Eliakim, Eliakim the father of Azor,
 14.  Azor the father of Zadok, Zadok the father of Akim, Akim the father of Eliud,
 15.  Eliud the father of Eleazar, Eleazar the father of Matthan, Matthan the father of Jacob,
 16.  and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
 17.  Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ.

 

NIV Hebrews 11:31
   By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

 

NIV James 2:25
   In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?

 

There seems to be no condemnation for what SHE did: but what about lying in general???

NIV John 8:43-45
 43.  Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.
 44.  You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
 45.  Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

 

NIV Leviticus 6:2-5
 2.  "If anyone sins and is unfaithful to the LORD by deceiving his neighbor about something entrusted to him or left in his care or stolen, or if he cheats him,
 3.  or if he finds lost property and lies about it, or if he swears falsely, or if he commits any such sin that people may do--
 4.  when he thus sins and becomes guilty, he must return what he has stolen or taken by extortion, or what was entrusted to him, or the lost property he found,
 5.  or whatever it was he swore falsely about. He must make restitution in full, add a fifth of the value to it and give it all to the owner on the day he presents his guilt offering.

 

 

KJV Leviticus 19:11
  Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.

 

KJV Numbers 23:19
 19.  God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

 

NIV Joshua 7:11-12
 11.  Israel has sinned; they have violated my covenant, which I commanded them to keep. They have taken some of the devoted things; they have stolen, they have lied, they have put them with their own possessions.
 12.  That is why the Israelites cannot stand against their enemies; they turn their backs and run because they have been made liable to destruction. I will not be with you anymore unless you destroy whatever among you is devoted to destruction.

 

NIV Psalms 5:6
   You destroy those who tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors.

 

NIV Psalms 10:6-7
 6.  He says to himself, "Nothing will shake me; I'll always be happy and never have trouble."
 7.  His mouth is full of curses and lies and threats; trouble and evil are under his tongue.

 

NIV Psalms 12:2
   Everyone lies to his neighbor; their flattering lips speak with deception.

 

NIV Psalms 34:12-13
 12.  Whoever of you loves life and desires to see many good days,
 13.  keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking lies.

 

NIV Psalms 58:3
 3.  Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.

 

NIV Psalms 119:69-70
 69.  Though the arrogant have smeared me with lies, I keep your precepts with all my heart.
 70.  Their hearts are callous and unfeeling, but I delight in your law.

 

NIV Psalms 144:11
   Deliver me and rescue me from the hands of foreigners whose mouths are full of lies, whose right hands are deceitful.

 

NIV Proverbs 6:16-19
 16.  There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him:
 17.  haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood,
 18.  a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil,
 19.  a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.

 

NIV Proverbs 12:17
  A truthful witness gives honest testimony, but a false witness tells lies.

 

NIV Proverbs 29:12
  If a ruler listens to lies, all his officials become wicked.

 

NIV Proverbs 30:7-8
 7.  "Two things I ask of you, O LORD; do not refuse me before I die:
 8.  Keep falsehood and lies far from me; give me neither poverty nor riches, but give me only my daily bread.

 

NIV Isaiah 28:14-15
 14.  Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scoffers who rule this people in Jerusalem.
 15.  You boast, "We have entered into a covenant with death, with the grave  we have made an agreement. When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by, it cannot touch us, for we have made a lie our refuge and falsehood  our hiding place."
 

NIV Jeremiah 5:12
   They have lied about the LORD; they said, "He will do nothing! No harm will come to us; we will never see sword or famine.

 

 

NIV Jeremiah 9:4-5
 4.  "Beware of your friends; do not trust your brothers. For every brother is a deceiver, and every friend a slanderer.
 5.  Friend deceives friend, and no one speaks the truth. They have taught their tongues to lie; they weary themselves with sinning.

 

NIV Acts 5:3-5
 3.  Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?
 4.  Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."
 5.  When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened.

 

 

NIV Romans 1:25
   They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.

 

NIV Galatians 1:20
  I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.
 

 

NIV Colossians 3:9-10
 9.  Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices
 10.  and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

 

NIV 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
 11.  For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 
 12.  and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

 

NIV Titus 1:1-4
 1.  Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness--
 2.  a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,
 3.  and at his appointed season he brought his word to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,
 4.  To Titus, my true son in our common faith:   Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

 

NIV Hebrews 6:17-18
 17.  Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath.
 18.  God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged.

 

NIV 1 John 1:6
   If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.

 

NIV 1 John 2:21
  I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.

---

 

 

Even the Ten Commandments don't oppose lying, just bearing false witness.