Returning to Dover [evolution trial in Dover, PA: week 2]

York Daily Record [Penna] ^ | 03 October 2005 | TERESA MCMINN

[Doctor Stochastic]

[RightWhale]

I see the pattern. Funny thing, though, they say no two snowflakes are alike. Might be so, and likewise no two quartz crystals are alike. The specific shape and composition of the crystal indicates each crystal forms to a different pattern. The pattern disappears unless the reference is to an ideal pattern. A pattern in the mind.

Anyway, back to evolution, the science of taxonomy.

[VadeRetro]

You know, you're right, that last one isn't absolutely identical to this one.

For all that, there's a consistency in nature. A pattern. It's out there to be seen.

I don't like semantics and I don't like "It's all in the mind" unless something really IS all in the mind. Some things are all in the mind, but not everything.

Taxonomy is somewhat arbitrary, yes. It tends to fail as you go back in the fossil record to the divergence point between branches. The taxons tend to be based on specimens from farther up the branches where the distinction is clearer.

That wouldn't happen so much if evolution were false. That it does happen quite reliably points to evolution having happened.

[b_sharp]

What? You don't have a head lamp?

[VadeRetro]

Another version--can we hope this one is real?--of the Byrn Mawr thing:

If all the young ladies who attended the Yale prom were laid end to end, no one would be the least surprised.

[RightWhale]

the world has patterns and processes whether there is an intelligence to understand them

Change whether to where. Two letters and we are in substantial agreement. 2500 years ago the sun went around the earth, but it wasn't the sun as we know it. It was a chariot or a phoenix bird. Then came a change in pattern. 500 years ago the sun went around the earth. Then came a change in pattern and the earth goes around the sun. 500 more years could bring another pattern and they will wonder how we could possibly not see reality as it really is. You are right the world has patterns and processes, but in addition we create this world in our minds, and no two minds agree completely. Nor should they says Emerson.

For a bad idea, Paley's metaphor sure has stuck around.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

" Change whether to where. "

No. The world has patterns and processes whether there is an intelligence to recognize it or not. There could be no intelligent being and the universe would still be what it is.

"2500 years ago the sun went around the earth, but it wasn't the sun as we know it. "

No, it didn't. People were wrong. The world existed as it is whether we knew it or not.

"You are right the world has patterns and processes, but in addition we create this world in our minds, and no two minds agree completely. Nor should they says Emerson."

The universe cares not what we think. It is.

" For a bad idea, Paley's metaphor sure has stuck around."

That is not evidence it is right. Lot's of false ideas persist.

[RightWhale]

Oh, evolution is as real as anything. It's not understood properly, nor is it used properly. I don't like semantics much either, too many amateurs and dilettantes in the arena, but semiology is another matter. Evolution was created by a committee, a constantly evolving committee, and evolution itself is evolving. Semantics is a problem when it comes to the meaning of words; for example, Liberals equate Progress to Evolution as if evolution means improvement always. But, progress can be around and around a circular track.

As the Red Queen said, words mean what I intend them to mean. Progress means to step forward, that is, in the direction you happen to be facing. Evolution means to turn out--like kneading bread dough.

[VadeRetro]

We need to understand and deal with that which is real. Indeed, too many people are trying to obfuscate, but I'm not at all sure you and I are talking about the same people.

Out for the night.

[RightWhale]

There could be no intelligent being and the universe would still be what it is.

The old place just wouldn't be the same without us.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

" The old place just wouldn't be the same without us."

Sure it would. It wouldn't know we left.

[RightWhale]

It wouldn't know we left.

That's right. That's our job.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

" That's right. That's our job."

The point is, the regularity of the universe exists regardless of what intelligence is aware of it or not.

[js1138]

Astrology has been around longer than Paley.

[furball4paws]

Isn't his first name Calvin?

[furball4paws]

You guys are getting desperate.

PH we need a new thread.

[connectthedots]

Who's the first witness scheduled for tomorrow?

[MHalblaub]

Vienna Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn?

[VadeRetro]

Given your ideas on "bullet," I hate to ask for whom you were suggesting "diapers."

[RightWhale]

The two million year old man. Finally we will get some answers. Unfortunately, he remembers only his childhood, but, fortunately, as if it happened yesterday.