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To: dsc; ninenot; sittnick
He would be the Holy Father and he just has to understand this stuff better than I. That he is the Holy Father is dispositive. He has the Keys. I don't. Neither do the schismatics nor will they ever.

There would be an obvious problem that I would not understand. Was JP II right and B-16 putatively wrong? Therefore, I really do not expect B-16 to suggest in that fashion that JP II was wrong. This is especially true in this case since B-16 headed the Holy Office at the time of the excommunication of Marcel and the Econe 4. B-16 cannot very well undermine JP II's authority and judgment without impairing his own authority and judgment. B-16 is far too wise for that.

Second obvious problem. Marcel and at least one of the Econe 4 have died, apparently unrepentant. Their final disposition was up to God but they are no longer on earth to repent their sins of disobedience and there is no evidence whatsoever that they ever did repent.

We may study history. We may prospectively create history. We are not entitled to change history retroactively.

I would join you on the barricades in cheering a universal indult or, better yet, a declaration that no indult was ever necessary or ever would be. Likewise, a flat out declaration that the Tridentine is the normative Mass of the Church (without Pope St. Pius V's ultra vires pretense of binding his successors as to every jot and tittle of the liturgy) would be welcome and perhaps a decree that no Church be built in the future in Novus Ordo style, that Tridentine Masses be offered in EVERY Catholic Church on each and every day, that Novus Ordo altars be portable and high altars restored in every Church at diocesan expense if necessary "with all deliberate speed." Remove recalcitrant bishops. Abolish all bishops' conferences. AND a whole lot more.

I was awake, aware and alive as a former Tridentine altar boy when the Tridentine Mass was effectively ripped away from us. I feel sure that I was not the only Catholic nauseated by the low rent rubrics of Bugnini, et al., to the point of considering defection to the Eastern Orthodox Church. I got over it. I even got over Paul VI ignorantly calling the Vietnam War as waged by the USA as an exercise in "racist genocide." No one ever guaranteed that popes have special gifts in inernational affairs of governments.

I don't want those who are genuinely wedded to the Novus Ordo treated as were Tridentine Catholics four decades ago.

I am skeptical as to the value of "freeing" "all clergy from any obligation ever to celebrate the Novus Ordo. Many posts by SSPXers indicate the belief that only the Tridentine Mass is valid. Thus, we would be merely formally inviting the schismatic termites into the Church woodwork. Nevertheless, it is the pope's call and not mine. I suspect that the Holy Ghost will see to it that no such imprudence will become papal policy without more.

I suspect that a restoration of Pope St. Pius X's anti-modernism campaign is in order with a modification or two. First, make it even MORE rigorous. Second, annual loyalty oaths by each and every member of the clergy or of vowed lesser orders or of those purporting to be "Catholic" educators, the oaths to be comprehensive and orthodox. Third, add to the oath an affirmation that the Novus Ordo is and was a valid Mass and that the Tridentine Mass is and was a valid Mass. Fourth, IF the oath has been taken, no one should force a priest to say a Novus Ordo Mass. Ultimately, the Novus Ordo should be suppressed as an uninspiring liturgy with little sense of the sacred and little else to recommend it but take this goal somewhat slowly in deference to people led into Novus Ordodum by the eccentric behavior of the hierarchy. Also, each of the surving members of the Econe 4 and their consecratees and ordained SSPX leaders should be required to resign and enter cloistered monasteries for life. The equivalent was imposed on Lucia of Fatima. Let her be their example. She suffered unjustly unlike them.

See #341. What are your answers?

344 posted on 06/22/2005 9:22:54 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: BlackElk

An annual oath would be wunnerful, wunnerful...IF and ONLY IF there were consequences for 'failure to uphold.'

It's demonstrated that there is a sizeable minority of Ordained who would be happy to swear to anything...and mean nothing.


355 posted on 06/22/2005 11:32:34 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, Tomas Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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