Posted on 06/19/2005 9:33:26 PM PDT by Lady In Blue
"The Most Holy Trinity is not limited to working through Mary, but rather has chosen to do so."
What of Saint Faustina? If I understand correctly, Our Lord appeared to her directly.
What of her? What does an apparition of Our Lord have to do with the manner of distributing graces, the intercession of the saints and angels in this, most especially of St. Mary?
Well, it might appear that Saint Faustina received Graces directly from Our Lord. I don't see where the mediation of Our Lady enters in there.
Unless there is a choir, they would have to. At many of the Eastern Catholic Church Liturgies I have been too, especially among the Ruthenians, there is no choir, and the congregation was able to sing all the responses. In fact, there were two full years where I went daily on weekdays to Mass at an Eastern Church - Ruthenian in Pittsburgh and then later Ukranian in Wilmington, and being generally the only one in attendance on a weekday, made up the choir and congregation. Boy did I learn Slavonic chant quickly - both in Slavonic and English translation!
What is probably most common, at least in America is a mix of choir, solo chanters, and congregation.
As well it should be if possible. In the Roman Rite, the choir (St. Pius X calls them, "The Choir of Levites" to remind us it is really a clerical function) is to sing the proper Antiphons, and the lead the laity in singing the Ordinary.
The key to having the congregation sing along on the responses (and we have a lot of them), is that the fixed portions of the Orthodox Liturgy never change in text (that's just how our liturgies work) -- and wise chanters/choir directors stick to simple chant melodies and don't change them. That way, over time, those who regularly attend learn text and melodies alike by heart. I am personally of the opinion that having books for the congregation actually interferes with this process of memorization.
The Roman Mass is the same. The ordinary is fixed and doesn't change (other than the Creed and Gloria not being sung on weekdays except feasts), and the tones for responses are simple and unchanging. The tones for the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei are around 16 in number (although not all are used very often, some being proper only to Masses of the dead, or of the Blessed Virgin). There is a series of tones for Sundays, i.e. 1 for Easter, 1 for Sunday's after Pentecost, 1 for Advent, 1 for Christmastide, 1 for Lent, etc., and these one quickly learns from repition.
The books are only helpful when one is first learning to follow along. Otherwise, they should only be used for the following the readings and proper (changing) prayers.
For the variable material, this is either sung by the choir, or by a solo chanter. This material is best prayed by the congregation via active and attentive listening. Over time, even some of the variable material is learned by heart (especially troparia).
The learning of this material would be near impossible in the Roman Rite, where every Mass has its own individual chants. Only the most memorable parts, such as the Sequences (Victimae Paschali, Laud Sion, Stabat Mater, etc.), or a handful of commonly used antiphonal chants (such as Gaudeamus Omnes on many feasts of Our Lady), lend themselves to ready memorization.
Ideal liturgies involve a balance of priest(s), deacon (if you're lucky enough to have one), tonsured reader, choir, solo chanter(s), and congregation. It is very natural and fluid.
I don't disagree. For us, Priest, Deacon, Subdeacaon, Lector (for Masses with more than two readings), Cantor(s), Acolytes, Congregation.
A Clown Mass would induce grave doubts in my mind as to whether the "Priest" was truly "intending to do what the Church does" in celebrating the Sacrament. Thus, I could not participate, but would have to leave.
I've been to several "Masses" like this. Once, the "Priest" had two laywoman come up from the congregation and "concelebrate" with him, including holding their hands over the "oblations" and saying the "consecration" with him. I left.
Another time, the "Priest" decided to use a sweet bread for the "Host", made up the "Offertory" and "Canon" as he went along in front of a congregation that seemed obvlious to the concept of praying or of the real presence. I left once they started butchering the Agnus Dei chant.
These aren't "personal Calvaries" but sacrileges.
You're welcome. I plan to be in the area for Midnight Mass next year. Look for me. I'll be in the back: Gospel side of the Church. I'll be the one with the halo.
We disagree. But, that's fine. The Christian Church is a large family. There are bound to be differences of opinions. However, I think you are getting a bit pedantic and are missing the larger point. Or, maybe I just framed it the wrong way; especially citing the Clown Mass.
In any event, I am enjoying your posts and learning a lot from you.
No, they wouldn't -- a reader or solo chanter can do the responses in the absence of a full choir. In the Byzantine tradition, this became fairly common during the Ottoman era, since the training of full choirs was very difficult. The association of Byzantine chant with solo psalti grew out of this, but the tradition of Byzantine chant sung by choirs (very beautiful, and by necessity, very un-ornamented) is making a strong come-back.
As to the memorization of variable material, this really only occurs for the troparia and kontakia of the Octoechos on Sundays (they repeat every 8 weeks), and for troparia and kontakia of festal seasons, since these are repeated many times during the services of the feast and during the post-festal season. Some of the Resurrectional stichera for Vespers from the Octoechos becomes memorized by those who attend Vespers regularly, but this is less common.
On a given day, between Vespers, Matins, and Liturgy, there are usually 4 - 8 folio-sized pages of closely spaced text that contain the variable material. This obviously would be very difficult to memorize, even for chanters who were in a monastic setting.
This, incidentally is why Eastern-tradition parishes that claim that the congregation sings "everything" are usually not telling the whole story. In most parishes where this is supposedly the case, the real story is that only Liturgy is being served, and not the other services -- and/or large amounts of variable material are being omitted. It is virtually impossible to do the services with completeness without much of the material being done either by a choir, solo chanters, or both.
In any event, God willing, traditional Western chant will make a comeback in the Catholic church. Most of the Gregorian chant recordings that I have are very sterile and academic -- hardly chants that people could learn and memorize, and it seems that the continuous living tradition of Western chant has been largely broken. Are you aware of recordings that have the kind of simpler Gregorian chant that congregations could sing? And what about in English? (And here's the "hard to please" part -- good English?...)
I'm not sure what it means for sacraments to be 'valid' or 'invalid'. Sometimes I know that those who are critical of modern innovations in the liturgy are accused of Donatism, but it is important to recall that Donatism involved saying that the personal worthiness or sinfulness of the priest affected whether or not grace was present, even when the forms were those of the Church.
It is quite another matter when the forms themselves are altered -- how much is too much? Luckily for me, the Orthodox don't go in too much for deciding on 'validity' of this or that. We draw the line back quite a bit further. There is a sense in Orthodoxy that while the Body and Blood of Christ may certainly be present, it is entirely possible for them to be "contaminated," if you will. This also goes for us being able to do the contaminating, when we examine ourselves to see if we are truly prepared to received communion. All too often, I am not -- so I don't.
I don't think that amongst Orthodox who travel a lot that it would be particularly uncommon to decide not to commune at that particular parish that they are visiting, if sloppiness in the serving of the Liturgy were to be obvious. It would be rare for someone to leave (although a "Clown Liturgy" would do it. :-) I know you were being tongue in cheek, but it is just too ripe to resist!)
It's not so much a sense of passing judgment on priest or parish as of personal caution in the reception of the Mysteries.
Yes it was, and it is why the Roman Church did not use the Kiss of Peace on Holy Thursday until Paul VI's lamentable revisions.
Some of us are trying very hard for this.
Most of the Gregorian chant recordings that I have are very sterile and academic -- hardly chants that people could learn and memorize, and it seems that the continuous living tradition of Western chant has been largely broken.
I quite agree. Most of them are focused on over elaborate vocalizations of the proper chants of various Masses.
Are you aware of recordings that have the kind of simpler Gregorian chant that congregations could sing?
Well, if you can find one for an ordinary of the Mass in plainchant, it should have it. All to frequently though, these type of recordings have some outlandish concert hall style music from Mozart or some such, and completely ethereal proper tones. Otherwise, you would need to visit somewhere it still lives, such as St. Boniface Church in Pittsburgh, Corpus Christi in New York City, or Most Holy Family Monastery in Harvard, MA.
And what about in English? (And here's the "hard to please" part -- good English?...)
For this, you are best off looking around at what the more liturgically correct Anglo-Catholics have to offer. They also have some beautiful Elizabethan Polyphony. I have one I love called "All the Vales Rejoice" put out by the Choir of St. Mary's of the Hills (Episcopal), but recorded in St. John's Church (Episcopal) in Valle Crucis, NC.
Your best bet might be visiting one of the Churches listed on the "Forward in Faith" website and seeing what they can steer you towards.
LOL I do tend to get myself in trouble sometimes. Well, I will can the clown liturgy ref in the future as it obscured my major point.
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