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To: ThinkPlease
Clearly what you are implying with this and other quotes here is that one person speaks for an entire group with his statements. Does Arlen Specter speak for the entire Republican Party? Does Ken Ham speak for all of the creationists? You are a walking logical fallacy my friend, and you need to re-evaluate your entire argument, because it suffers from many holes (not just this, but also the fact that you obviously haven't checked your sources). You say you have, but if you had read the talk.origins webpage on Patterson's quote, you would have found it was incorrectly quoted. So did you REALLY check all of your sources? Or was that a lie?

PatrickHenry asked for one quote to examine, and I provided several quotes by one person. William Provine was one of the most highly respected sources in biology until his demise. Furthermore, I have examined the quotes, and posted the sources. If you want to disputre them, then feel free to post your arguments regardins each and every one.
263 posted on 11/29/2004 9:18:52 AM PST by GarySpFc (Sneakypete, De Oppresso Liber)
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To: GarySpFc
I did provide an argument regarding the Provine post. I can only assume that since you didn't address it that you think it is valid.

Note that there isn't any room for God in science, nor is there room for an invisible Purple People Eater that created the universe either. The fact is that science is a naturalistic explanation of the universe, and the idea of any supreme creator is simply not naturalistic. Nor is it repeatable. Provine's statements are an extension of that argument, but are simply his opinion, and I don't consider that it speaks for anyone but himself, considering that he doesn't logically explain himself (unless you would care to provide some sort of context).

See science can't say anything about a creator, at least at this time, because there never has been any evidence pointing to a creator, and because of the logical difficulties in have someone or something creating the universe (i.e. who created the creator, the "Its turtles all the way down" argument).

281 posted on 11/29/2004 9:31:11 AM PST by ThinkPlease (Fortune Favors the Bold!)
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To: GarySpFc; ThinkPlease
Correct. Because so many "quotes" were posted, I asked for his best shot so I could deal with it. He hasn't yet provided it. No doubt he's pouring over the texts. It should be interesting. I've found a book review by his favorite source, William Provine. It's here. It's a good article. It should be interesting examining Privine's alleged quotes against evolution, as in his own words, from the linked site:
I concur with Bird [the author he's reviewing] on two of his major controversial arguments. I agree with him that evolution and other prevalent theories of biological and cosmological origins properly belong in science classrooms. [Later in the article he explains why, and it's most definitely not because he sees any value in creationism.] I teach an evolution course for non-majors in biology at Cornell University, and I begin the course advocating creationism in lecture and in the readings. Later, I advocate theistic evolution along the lines of so many religous thinkers from the time of Darwin to the present. Only later in the course do I become a modern evolutionist arguing that the evolutionary process exhibits no sign of purpose whatsoever.

[skipping]

How can Bird dismantle the basic truth of evolution by descent? Darwin was able to convince most of his contemporary biologists and educated persons who read his Origin of Species that evolution by descent had occurred. He was far less successful in convincing them that evolution had occurred primarily by his mechanism of natural selection. Since his death, the evidence for evolution by descent has accumulated at a rapid rate until at, the present, the rational evidence for evolution by descent is overwhelming.

[skipping more]

Another element of Bird's intellectual dishonesty is the way he uses citations from evolutionists. He quotes Stephen Jay Gould more often than any other person, so we can take him as an example. Gould has written more about evolution for a wide audience than any other evolutionist of recent times. And he has been wildly successful in attracting attention to the issues in modern evolutionary biology. Bird tries to skewer evolution by descent with quotes from Gould (what delightful irony for the creationists). The problem is that to achieve this end, Gould must be cited in such a way as to distort his meaning about evolution. No one reading Gould would ever come away with the impression that he had, in any of his writings, said anything that cast doubt upon evolution by descent.

That last paragraph is especially wonderful in this context.
293 posted on 11/29/2004 9:40:23 AM PST by PatrickHenry (The List-O-Links for evolution threads is at my freeper homepage.)
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