Posted on 08/18/2004 7:43:12 AM PDT by Stubborn
The following list of words and phrases are typically used by modernist theologians and lay people, in reference to Catholic theology/practice/attitude/concepts. Most of them are inherently vague and for that very reason are used by the modernists -- it is not clear just what they mean or when their meaning applies.
(Excerpt) Read more at cathinsight.com ...
That was one of the reasons. But you said a bishop's permission was needed to celebrate the Novus Ordo in Latin, and that is false.
Ok, so you just confuse Consecration with Mass - got it.
No I didn't.
I don't mind being labeled as a Traditionalist - do you mind being labeled as a novus ordo?
Certainly not. I prefer "Catholic." Do you prefer "Catholic", or do you insist on separating yourself from Catholics who attend the Novus Ordo?
I mentionned that the Orthodox are merely in schism, not apostasy, and in so doing recognized that other non-Catholics were merely schismatic. But most Protestantism, while still Christianity, is more grave than merely withdrawing from submission to the Supreme Pontiff, or communion with members of the Church subject to him. Most Protestantism denies the objective reality of Christ in the Eucharist. Or maybe it's to do with specific issues within Protestant faiths; for instance, Baptist converts must repudiate the baptism they received in the Catholic Church.
Yes, but Derksen specifically singles out the use of evolution in reference to the origin of species as "Modernist" - Pius XII certainly would not have allowed belief in it if that were so. (Evolution of doctrine is different, and condemned by St. Pius X)
The Latin word for "active" is not used in Sacrosactum Concilium.
What do you think it is?
14. Valde cupit Mater Ecclesia ut fideles universi ad plenam illam, consciam atque actuosam liturgicarum celebrationum participationem ducantur,
actuosus , a, um, adj. [actus], full of activity, very active (with the access. idea of zeal, subjective impulse; diff. from industrius, which refers more to the means by which an object is attained, Doed. Syn. 1, 123) ... (Lewis & Short, A Latin Dictionary)
Regardless, "active" participation for some people can mean silently meditating or comtemplating the Sacred Mysteries OR simply contemplating Christ's life through use of the rosary.
Pius XI says in Divini Cultus:
In order that the faithful may more actively participate in divine worship, let them be made once more to sing the Gregorian Chant, so far as it belongs to them to take part in it. It is most important that when the faithful assist at the sacred ceremonies, or when pious sodalities take part with the clergy in a procession, they should not be merely detached and silent spectators, but, filled with a deep sense of the beauty of the Liturgy, they should sing alternately with the clergy or the choir, as it is prescribed. If this is done, then it will no longer happen that the people either make no answer at all to the public prayers -- whether in the language of the Liturgy or in the vernacular -- or at best utter the responses in a low and subdued manner.
This appears to me to indicate that actively participating in the Mass implies singing the chant when proper, and that not giving the responses is not desirable.
To say nothing of a boatload of saints, who used the word "love" as much as they breathed.
Poor Mother Teresa. Never knew she was a closet modernist.
She went to a modernist Mass. Did you know that Mother Teresa was a modernist?
Did you know she went to Viet Nam?
O, yeah... this is the religion thread, not politics.
LOL, as a matter of fact, and sadly, I have heard that claim about her before.
"This appears to me to indicate that actively participating in the Mass implies singing the chant when proper, and that not giving the responses is not desirable."
I have no problem with this--those parts proper to the people--but this says "should," not "must." And sitting "detached and silent" could infer one is not even paying attention nor know what is going on vs. a silent and reflective contemplation--which would also be "actively" participating. Either Leo XIII or Pius X said that praying the rosary during Mass was to be commended. Each person will subjectively have a different level of participation. Paul VI issued a book after Vatican II of simple plain chant for the ordinaries for the people. He asked the bishops and priests to ensure the people knew their parts in Latin. Where did that go?
And, as a Latin Mass attendee who has had a makeshift schola with only 3 or 4 voices for the past 2 years, with no one really trained to teach us, I sincerely dounbt this ideal goal of Pius XII is going to happen any time soon. I have seen it as SOME Traditional Latin Mass centers, but not most--and they have access ALL THE TIME. I have NEVER seen it at a Novus Ordo, except for the Anglican-type "reform of the reform" liturgies where the people can sing the Misa de Angelis (which is really intended for a funeral Mass)Sanctus and Agnus Dei, and perhaps the Kyrie--that is all.
I would add that perhaps the dialogue Traditional Latin Mass is preferred by Pius XII, but is not necessarily mandatory.
I will address "active" in another response. My initial responses about the use of these terms by modernists (or overuse of them) to mean something totally different than what is Catholic still stand.
Modernists also avoid the term "Holy Communion" and call it "Eucharist" instead, and substitute the word "grave sin" for "mortal sin".
"Reconciliation" instead of "penance" or "confession". Nobody sins anymore, right? Hey, do the N.O. priests order penance anymore after "reconciliation"???
"Holy Spirit", instead of "Holy Ghost", as in "the Spirit of Vatican II". Yeah, we get it, all too well.
MMJ
Catholic theology must point out the so-called "negative" errors of ideas alien to Catholicism. I am speaking of "positive" and "negative" in psychological terms. There is no place for them in theological language. "Positivism" does not mean "hope." They are distinctly different. It is also misleading to be overly positive, as it is not objective nor realistic.
Pope JPII's Ad Limina Visit to U.S. Bishops October 9, 1998
Active participation certainly means that, in gesture, word, song and service, all the members of the community take part in an act of worship, which is anything but inert or passive. Yet active participation does not preclude the active passivity of silence, stillness and listening: indeed, it demands it. Worshippers are not passive, for instance, when listening to the readings or the homily, or following the prayers of the celebrant, and the chants and music of the liturgy. These are experiences of silence and stillness, but they are in their own way profoundly active. In a culture which neither favors nor fosters meditative quiet, the art of interior listening is learned only with difficulty. Here we see how the liturgy, though it must always be properly inculturated, must also be counter-cultural.
Conscious participation calls for the entire community to be properly instructed in the mysteries of the liturgy, lest the experience of worship degenerate into a form of ritualism. But it does not mean a constant attempt within the liturgy itself to make the implicit explicit, since this often leads to a verbosity and informality which are alien to the Roman Rite and end by trivializing the act of worship. Nor does it mean the suppression of all subconscious experience, which is vital in a liturgy which thrives on symbols that speak to the subconscious just as they speak to the conscious. The use of the vernacular has certainly opened up the treasures of the liturgy to all who take part, but this does not mean that the Latin language, and especially the chants which are so superbly adapted to the genius of the Roman Rite, should be wholly abandoned. If subconscious experience is ignored in worship, an affective and devotional vacuum is created and the liturgy can become not only too verbal but also too cerebral. Yet the Roman Rite is again distinctive in the balance it strikes between a spareness and a richness of emotion: it feeds the heart and the mind, the body and the soul.
What an obtuse paragraph that says absolutely nothing. "Glass half full" is actually a term used to describe a certain type of person, a positive, upbeat individual who sees the best in everything.
"Glass half empty," OTOH, describes you.
If one can become a saint by "buying into" modernism, then the trad use of it as an epithet rings pretty hollow.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you affiliated withe the diocese of Dallas, and wasn't there just recently a controversy in that diocese over a pastor who lost his parish for saying the New Mass in Latin?
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