The "World" of John 3:16 Does Not Mean "All Men Without Exception

http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/calvinism/full.asp?ID=277 ^ | 6/15/04 | David J. Engelsma

[RnMomof7]

GOL | |
	The "World" of John 3:16 Does Not Mean "All Men Without Exception" - David J. Engelsma It is now common among Reformed people that, when one confesses God’s election of some persons to salvation, God’s particular love for the elect, and God’s exclusive desire to save the elect, his confession is immediately contested by an appeal to John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Indeed, this is almost the rule. The one who thus appeals to John 3:16 intends to assert that God loves all men without exception and that God desires to save all men without exception. The basic assumption underlying this appeal to John 3:16, as an argument against election, is that the word, world, in John 3:16 means ‘all men without exception. We do here announce, declare, and proclaim that this assumption is false. It is unbiblical. It commits one to a teaching that deviates from the gospel, fundamentally. The word, world, in John 3:16 does not mean ‘all men without exception.’ We plead with our Reformed brothers and sisters who insist on understanding "world" in John 3:16 as ‘all men without exception’ and on using this text against the confession of God’s particular love for the elect to face up to the doctrinal position that they are taking. This, now, is their position: God loves all men without exception, with a love that gives His only begotten Son for their salvation, that is, with the (saving) love that desires their salvation from sin and their eternal life in heaven. God gave His only begotten Son for all men without exception, that is, Jesus died for all men without exception. Nevertheless, many people whom God loves, whom God desires to save, and for whom Jesus died perish in hell, unsaved. Therefore, 1) many persons are separated from the love of God; 2) God’s desire to save is frustrated in the case of many persons; and 3) the death of Jesus failed to save many for whom the Son of God, in fact, died. The reason for this sad state of affairs is that those persons refused to believe in Jesus, although they were able to do so by virtue of their free will. On the other hand, the reason why the others are saved is not that God loved them, desired their salvation, and gave His Son to die for them (for He also loved those who perish, desired their salvation, and gave His Son for them), but that they, by their free will, chose to believe. In conclusion, the damnation of the wicked is the defeat and disappointment of God, whereas the salvation of the believers is their own work. When the all-men-without-exception-people quote John 3:16, this is how they are reading it: "For God so loved all men without exception, that he gave his only begotten Son to die for all men without exception, with the desire that all men without exception be saved, so that whosoever believeth in him, of his own free will, should not perish, but have everlasting life." Whenever anyone challenges the confession of God’s particular, exclusive love for His elect by quoting John 3:16, we must regretfully conclude that he holds the doctrinal position set forth above and wishes to confess it publicly, in order thus to overthrow the Reformed doctrine of predestination, limited atonement, total depravity, effectual grace, and the preservation of saints (which is only an elaborate way of saying, salvation by grace alone — the gospel). The word, world, in the gospel of John does not mean ‘all men without exception.’ Proof: John 1:29: "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." Did Christ by His death take away the sin of all men without exception? If He did, all men without exception shall be saved. John 6:33: "For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world." Does Jesus give life (not, ineffectually offer life, but, efficaciously give life) to all men without exception? If He does, all men without exception have eternal life. John 17:9: "I (Jesus) pray not for the world." Does Jesus refuse to pray for all men without exception? This last text points out that the word, world, in the gospel of John does not always have the same meaning. In John 3:16, the world is loved by God, with a love that gives the Son of God for its sake; in John 17:9, the Son of God refuses to pray for the world. The saints must not come to an understanding of the world of John 3:16 by a quick assumption, but by careful interpretation of the passage in the light of the rest of Scripture. What then is the truth about the world of John 3:16? Loved by God with Divine, almighty, effectual, faithful, eternal love, the world is saved. All of it! All of them! Redeemed by the precious, worthy, powerful, effectual death of the Son of God, the world is saved. All of it! All of them! The salvation of all the persons included in the world of John 3:16 is due solely to the effectual love of God and the redeeming death of Christ for them; whereas the persons who perish were never loved by God, nor redeemed by Christ, that is, they are not part of the world of John 3:16. The world of John 3:16 (Greek: kosmos, from which comes our English word, cosmos, referring to our "orderly, harmonious, systematic universe’s) is the creation made by God in the beginning, now disordered by sin, with the elect from all nations, now by nature children of wrath even as the others, as the core of it. As regards its people, the world of John 3:16 is the new humanity in Jesus Christ, the last Adam (I Corinthians 15:45). John calls this new human race "the world" in order to show, and emphasize, that it is not from the Jewish people alone, but from all nations and peoples (Revelation 7:9). The people who make up the world of John 3:16 are all those, and those only, who will become believers (whosoever believeth"); and it is the elect who believe (Acts 13:48). This explanation of John 3:16 is not some strange, new interpretation dreamed up by latter-day hyper-Calvinists, but the explanation that has been given in the past by defenders of the Faith we call Reformed, that is, by those who confessed the sovereign grace of God in the salvation of sinners. This was the explanation given by Frances Turretin, Reformed theologian in Geneva (1623-1687): The love treated of in John 3:16. .. cannot be universal towards all and every one, but special towards a few... because the end of that love which God intends is the salvation of those whom He pursues with such love.. . If therefore God sent Christ for that end, that through Him the world might be saved, He must either have failed of His end, or the world must necessarily be saved in fact. But it is certain that not the whole world, but only those chosen out of the world are saved; therefore, to them properly has this love reference... Why then should not the world here be taken not universally for individuals, but indefinitely for anyone, Jews as well as Gentiles, without distinction of nation, language and condition. that He may be said to have loved the human race, inasmuch as He was unwilling to destroy it entirely but decreed to save some certain persons Out of it, not only from one people as before, but from all indiscriminately, although the effects of that love should not be extended to each individual, but only to some certain ones, viz, those chosen out of the world? (Theological Institutes) About the word, world, in Scripture, Abraham Kuyper, the Dutch theologian (1837-1920) wrote: For if there is anything that is certain from a somewhat more attentive reading of Holy Scripture, and that may be held as firmly established, it is, really, the irrefutable fact, that the word, world, in Holy Scripture, means "all men" only as a very rare exception and almost always means something entirely different. In explanation, specifically, of the "world" of John 3:16, Kuyper went on to say that the reference is to the "proper kernal" of the creation, the elect people of God, "which Jesus snatches away from Satan." out of this kernal, out this congregation, out of this people, a "new world," a "new earth and new heaven," shall one day appear, by a wonder-work of God. The earth does not merely serve to allow the elect to be saved, in order then to disappear. No, the elect are men; these men form a whole, a collection, an organism; that organism is grounded in creation; and because now this creation is the reflection of God’s wisdom and the work of His hands, God’s administration of it may not come to nothing, but in the Great Day God’s will with this creation shall be perfectly realized. (Dat De Genade Particulier Is (That Grace is Particular). My translation of the Dutch.) Essentially the same is the interpretation of Arthur W. Pink (1886-1952): Turning now to John 3:16, it should be evident from the passages just quoted that this verse will not bear the construction usually put upon it. "God so loved the world." Many suppose that this means, The entire human race. But "the entire human race" includes all mankind from Adam till the close of earth’s history: it reaches backward as well as forward! Consider, then, the history of mankind before Christ was born. Unnumbered millions lived and died before the Savior came to the earth, lived here "having no hope and without God in the world," and therefore passed out into eternity of woe. If God "loved" them, where is the slightest proof thereof? Scripture declares "Who (God) in times past (from the tower of Babel till after Pentecost) suffered all nations to walk in their own ways" (Acts 14:16). Scripture declares that "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient" (Rom. 1:28). To Israel God said, "You only have I known of all the families of the earth" (Amos 3:2). In view of these plain passages who will be so foolish as to insist that God in the past loved all mankind! The same applies with equal force to the future . . . But the objector comes back to John 3:16 and says, "World means world. "True, but we have shown that "the world" does not mean the whole human family. The fact is that "the world" is used in a general way.. . Now the first thing to note in connection with John 3:16 is that our Lord was there speaking to Nicodemus, a man who believed that God’s mercies were confined to his own nation. Christ there announced that God’s love in giving His Son had a larger object in view, that it flowed beyond the boundary of Palestine, reaching out to "regions beyond." In other words, this was Christ’s announcement that God had a purpose of grace toward Gentiles as well as Jews. "God so loved the world," then, signifies, God’s love is international in its scope. But does this mean that God loves every individual among the Gentiles? Not necessarily, for as we have seen the term "world" is general rather than specific, relative rather than absolute. . . the "world" in John 3:16 must, in the final analysis refer to the world of God’s people. Must we say, for there is no other alternative solution. It cannot mean the whole human race, for one half of the race was already in hell when Christ came to earth. It is unfair to insist that it means every human being now living, for every other passage in the New Testament where God’s love is mentioned limits it to His own people — search and see! The objects of God’s love in John 3:16 are precisely the same as the objects of Christ’s love in John 13:1: "Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that His time was come, that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved His own which were in the world, He loved them unto the end." We may admit that our interpretation of John 3:16 is no novel one invented by us, but one almost uniformly given by the Reformers and Puritans, and many others since them. (The Sovereignty of God) We can only marvel that Reformed men and women are so soon removed from the truth of God’s sovereign, particular, electing love in Jesus Christ, which truth has not only been confessed "by the Reformers and Puritans" before them, but has also been confessed by the Reformed church herself in her Creed, the Canons of Dordt. Who hath bewitched them? As for us, we are determined, out of love for the truth, to oppose the lie of a love of God in Jesus Christ for all men without exception; to try to rescue those who have been taken captive by this doctrine; and to preach and testify, near and far, in season and out of season, a love of God for the world that saves the world, a death of the Son of God that redeemed the world, a purpose of God for the saving of sinners that is accomplished, and a salvation of enslaved sinners by the sovereign power of the grace of God alone — for the comfort of every believer and the glory of God. ### This article was printed from Grace Online Library - www.graceonlinelibrary.org Please note that every attempt has been made to obtain the proper permission to use all of the material posted on our site. If you intend on reproducing this printed article, you may need to obtain the proper permission.

[dangus]

>>A literal rendering would be "that all that believe in him might not be destroyed."<<

The KJV translation is not problemmatic. I see no reason not to use it, particularly when dealing with an audience that may or may not consider it special.

>>Universality does not really enter into the equation in Jn. 3:16 in the Greek.<<

Neither party said it did. I only brought it up to point out that neither party did.

[HarleyD]

Actually, I was just reading an article by John Calvin, the man himself, on 1 Timothy 2:3-5. He explains this quite well but the style is a tad bit hard to read. If you're interested here's the link.

The Salvation of All Men by the one, the only John Calvin

applauses, applauses

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for the ping! And thank you oh so very much for including 1 John 4 in the thread!!!

we are determined, out of love for the truth, to oppose the lie of a love of God in Jesus Christ for all men without exception

This statement is very troubling to me as well, for the same reason you have given. God is love:

He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. – 1 John 4:8

And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. – 1 John 4:16

The suggestion that He chooses to love one and not love another makes no sense. IMHO, we ought to remember that even those who are made for His wrath and the dignities who are set against His will, in doing so serve His purpose:

Likewise also these [filthy] dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. – Jude 8-9

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, - Romans 9:21-23

It is true that the mysteries of the kingdom of God are not revealed to everyone, but it is also true that the creation itself declares His glory and man has no excuse for not seeking Him:

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:42-43

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. – Matthew 13:10-16

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. – Psalms 19:1

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. – Romans 1:18-21

Being able to hear, spiritually, is not an occasion for pride. It is a gift of God. We can ask for, and He will grant us, even greater spiritual hearing:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. – Ephesians 2:8-9

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? – Luke 11:13

Nor is the failure to hear an occasion to blame God, since it begins within the ego of the man – according to the above passage, with that cold heart - the polar opposite of love. God is love.

Thus is my objection, it is not that God does not love every man, but that not every man gives space to the spark of love to seek Him. And thereby, they become a vessel of His wrath.

But laying aside the subject of love, IMHO, the overarching theme of this author’s assertion is predestination. We have mulled the subject of time on various threads around here so I won’t repeat the various arguments except to say this:

Time is a part of creation. It is geometric in that it cannot be decoupled from space, hence it is called space/time. As Creator and the only person to pre-exist creation, God is not subordinate to time either as a line or a plane. What we experience frame by frame, He sees all at once. Therefore, He speaks of the future as if it is already past.

Thus, predestination is not only correct according to the Scripture, it is logical according to geometric physics. However – and this is a really big however – to presume inevitability denies the power of God. That which He creates, He can change.

So although one may be predestined to believe in Jesus Christ, he may also willfully turn away. And although one is predestined not to believe, he may yet willfully ask for grace to believe. This is the functioning of our free will and His righteousness that He permits us to have a part in His creation by choice and by deed.

My two cents…

[DoorGunner]

ALL,

Please look at these verses, which demonstrate the use of the Greek word kosmos, within the Gospel of John:

Greek Word: Kovsmoß
Transliterated Word: kosmos
Book to Display: John
Verse Count: 57

Joh 1:9
There was the true light which, coming into the
world, enlightens every man.
Joh 1:10
He was in the world, and the world was made
through Him, and the world did not know Him.
Joh 1:29
The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and
said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the
sin of the world!
Joh 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only
begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should
not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to
judge the world, but that the world should be
saved through Him.
Joh 3:19
"And this is the judgment, that the light is come into
the world, and men loved the darkness rather than
the light; for their deeds were evil.
Joh 4:42
and they were saying to the woman, "It is no longer
because of what you said that we believe, for we
have heard for ourselves and know that this One is
indeed the Savior of the world."
Joh 6:14
When therefore the people saw the sign which He
had performed, they said, "This is of a truth the
Prophet who is to come into the world."
Joh 6:33
"For the bread of God is that which comes down out
of heaven, and gives life to the world."
Joh 6:51
"I am the living bread that came down out of
heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live
forever; and the bread also which I shall give for the
life of the world is My flesh."
Joh 7:4
"For no one does anything in secret, when he
himself seeks to be known publicly. If You do these
things, show Yourself to the world."
Joh 7:7
"The world cannot hate you; but it hates Me
because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil.
Joh 8:12
Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am
the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not
walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life."
Joh 8:23
And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I
am from above; you are of this world, I am not of
this world.
Joh 8:26
"I have many things to speak and to judge
concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and
the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to
the world."
Joh 9:5
"While I am in the world, I am the light of the
world."
Joh 9:39
And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this
world, that those who do not see may see; and
that those who see may become blind."
Joh 10:36
do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and
sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,'
because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
Joh 11:9
Jesus answered, "Are there not twelve hours in the
day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not
stumble, because he sees the light of this world.
Joh 11:27
She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that
You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who
comes into the world."
Joh 12:19
The Pharisees therefore said to one another, "You
see that you are not doing any good; look, the
world has gone after Him."
Joh 12:25
"He who loves his life loses it; and he who hates his
life in this world shall keep it to life eternal.
Joh 12:31
"Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of
this world shall be cast out.
Joh 12:46
"I have come as light into the world, that everyone
who believes in Me may not remain in darkness.
Joh 12:47
"And if anyone hears My sayings, and does not
keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to
judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh 13:1
Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus
knowing that His hour had come that He should
depart out of this world to the Father, having loved
His own who were in the world, He loved them to
the end.
Joh 14:17
that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot
receive, because it does not behold Him or know
Him, but you know Him because He abides with you,
and will be in you.
Joh 14:19
"After a little while the world will behold Me no
more; but you will behold Me; because I live, you
shall live also.
Joh 14:22
Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, what then
has happened that You are going to disclose
Yourself to us, and not to the world?"
Joh 14:27
"Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not
as the world gives, do I give to you. Let not your
heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.
Joh 14:30
"I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of
the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;
Joh 14:31
but that the world may know that I love the Father,
and as the Father gave Me commandment, even so
I do. Arise, let us go from here.
Joh 15:18
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated
Me before it hated you.
Joh 15:19
"If you were of the world, the world would love its
own; but because you are not of the world, but I
chose you out of the world, therefore the world
hates you.
Joh 16:8
"And He, when He comes, will convict the world
concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment;
Joh 16:11
and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this
world has been judged.
Joh 16:20
"Truly, truly, I say to you, that you will weep and
lament, but the world will rejoice; you will be
sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned to joy.
Joh 16:21
"Whenever a woman is in travail she has sorrow,
because her hour has come; but when she gives
birth to the child, she remembers the anguish no
more, for joy that a child has been born into the
world.
Joh 16:28
"I came forth from the Father, and have come into
the world; I am leaving the world again, and going
to the Father."
Joh 16:33
"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you
may have peace. In the world you have tribulation,
but take courage; I have overcome the world."
Joh 17:5
"And now, glorify Thou Me together with Thyself,
Father, with the glory which I had with Thee before
the world was.
Joh 17:6
"I manifested Thy name to the men whom Thou
gavest Me out of the world; Thine they were, and
Thou gavest them to Me, and they have kept Thy
word.
Joh 17:9
"I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the
world, but of those whom Thou hast given Me; for
they are Thine;
Joh 17:11
"And I am no more in the world; and yet they
themselves are in the world, and I come to Thee.
Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, the name
which Thou hast given Me, that they may be one,
even as We are.
Joh 17:13
"But now I come to Thee; and these things I speak
in the world, that they may have My joy made full in
themselves.
Joh 17:14
"I have given them Thy word; and the world has
hated them, because they are not of the world,
even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:15
"I do not ask Thee to take them out of the world,
but to keep them from the evil one.
Joh 17:16
"They are not of the world, even as I am not of the
world.
Joh 17:18
"As Thou didst send Me into the world, I also have
sent them into the world.
Joh 17:21
that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art
in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us;
that the world may believe that Thou didst send
Me.
Joh 17:23
I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be
perfected in unity, that the world may know that
Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as
Thou didst love Me.
Joh 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast
given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they
may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me;
for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the
world.
Joh 17:25
"O righteous Father, although the world has not
known Thee, yet I have known Thee; and these
have known that Thou didst send Me;
Joh 18:20
Jesus answered him, "I have spoken openly to the
world; I always taught in synagogues, and in the
temple, where all the Jews come together; and I
spoke nothing in secret.
Joh 18:36
Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world.
If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants
would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to
the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this
realm."
Joh 18:37
Pilate therefore said to Him, "So You are a king?"
Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a
king. For this I have been born, and for this I have
come into the world, to bear witness to the truth.
Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."
Joh 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus
did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose
that even the world itself would not contain the
books which were written.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=joh&number=2889&count=57&version=nas

DG

[american colleen]

Therefore, seeing it is the will of God that all men should be partakers of that salvation which He hath sent in the person of His only begotten Son, we must endeavor to draw poor, silly, ignorant creatures to us, that we may all come together to this inheritance of the kingdom of heaven, which hath been promised us. But we must observe that St. Paul speaketh not of every particular man, but of all sorts of men, and of all people. Therefore, when he saith that God will have all men to be saved, we must not think that he speaketh of them individually, but his meaning is this: that whereas in times past He chose a certain people to Himself, He meaneth now to show mercy to all the world: yea, even to them that seemed to be shut out from the hope of salvation.

Sorry, John Calvin has twisted "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" and "Who gave himself a ransom for all" into something that fits with his personal biblical interpretation of Total Depravity and No Free Will. If the passages sited read "some" instead of "all" then I could agree with him somewhat.

[redeemed_by_His_blood]

Tell us what this means:

Psalm 5

4For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness,
Nor shall evil dwell with You.
5The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;
You hate all workers of iniquity.
6You shall destroy those who speak falsehood;
The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

************************************************************

Then this:

Malachi 1

1 The burden[1] of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.

2 "I have loved you," says the LORD.
"Yet you say, "In what way have You loved us?'
Was not Esau Jacob's brother?"
Says the LORD.
"Yet Jacob I have loved;
3But Esau I have hated,
And laid waste his mountains and his heritage For the jackals of the wilderness."

*********************************************************

Since you believe that God loves everyone unconditionally, with no exceptions, then obviously you believe God's Word contradicts itself, which leaves you in the precarious position of interjecting your own philosophical position into and over God's Word.

[ksen]

We love, because He first loved us.
(I John 4:7-19)

You forgot a word:

• We love HIM, because He first loved us. - I John 4:19 (KJV)

[redeemed_by_His_blood]

I suggest that you read into Scripture your own philosophy which reflects your own feelings."

The irony is fascinating.

JM

It's not only fascinating but it's scary.

Proverbs 3:8

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding.

It's amazing that the two passages I posted from Psalm 5 and Malachi 1, that clearly state that God hates the workers of iniquity, and does NOT love them are totally tossed aside so they can interject their own subjectivist(own understanding) philosophy in favor of God's plain Word.

[redeemed_by_His_blood]

We love, because He first loved us.
(I John 4:7-19)

The "us", there, is the Elect.

Psalm 5
"For You hate the workers of iniquity."

Now tell me that God loves everyone unconditionally without exception, and you are doing nothing more than reading into God's Word your own subjective feelings.

[Kolokotronis]

"What we need,when these calvinist articles are posted are inputs by those who understand the greek, aramaic and latin texts from which these verses including the passages of predistination have been translatied into English. When I read the surrounding contextual verses in John and the predistination passages as well, I don't see how hypercalvinists can justify what they are saying. So what does the greek actually say?"

"Ask and you shall receive. I hope. :-)"

In haste. The word "kosmos" as used here means "humanity" as in the sense of humankind. It is an undifferentiated term and usage. There are older ancient Greek meanings relating to order, or the ordering of creation. That particular type of usage also shows up in verb form in a few place's in the koine greek of the New Testament meaning to order things, like a room. Today we often use the word in the context of "people" as in "There are a lot of people here." (Einai poloi kosmos etho).

In the meantime, for a sort of long read,the Father, St. John of Damascus had the following to say on predestination:

"We ought to understand that while God knows all things beforehand, yet He does not predetermine all things. For He knows beforehand those things that are in our power, but He does not predetermine them. For it is not His will that there should be wickedness nor does He choose to compel virtue. So that predetermination is the work of the divine command based on fore-knowledge. But on the other hand God predetermines those things which are not within our power in accordance with His prescience. For already God in His prescience has prejudged all things in accordance with His goodness and justice.

Bear in mind, too, that virtue is a gift from God implanted in our nature, and that He Himself is the source and cause of all good, and without His co-operation and help we cannot will or do any good thing, But we have it in our power either to abide in virtue and follow God, Who calls us into ways of virtue, or to stray from paths of virtue, which is to dwell in wickedness, and to follow the devil who summons but cannot compel us. For wickedness is nothing else than the withdrawal of goodness, just as darkness is nothing else than the withdrawal of light While then we abide in the natural state we abide in virtue, but when we deviate from the natural state, that is from virtue, we come into an unnatural state and dwell in wickedness.

Repentance is the returning from the unnatural into the natural state, from the devil to God, through discipline and effort.

Man then the Creator made male, giving him to share in His own divine grace, and bringing him thus into communion with Himself: and thus it was that he gave in the manner of a prophet the names to living flyings, with authority as though they were given to be his slaves. For having been endowed with reason and mind, and free-will after the image of God, he was filly entrusted with dominion over earthly things by the common Creator and Master of all.

But since God in His prescience knew that man would transgress and become liable to destruction, He made from him a female to be a help to him like himself; a help, indeed, for the conservation of the race after the transgression from age to age by generation. For the earliest formation is called ‘making’ and not ‘generation.’ For ‘making ‘ is the original formation at God’s hands, while ‘generation’ is the succession from each Other made necessary by the sentence of death imposed on us ‘on account of the transgression.

This man He placed in Paradise, a home that was alike spiritual and sensible. For he lived in the body on the earth in the realm of sense, while he dwelt in the spirit among the angels, cultivating divine thoughts, and being supported by them: living in naked simplicity a life free from artificiality, and being led up through His creations to the one and only Creator, in Whose contemplation he found joy and gladness.

When therefore He had furnished his nature with free-will, He imposed a law on him, not to taste of the tree of knowledge. Concerning this tree, we have said as much as is necessary in the chapter about Paradise, at least as much as it was in our power to say. And with this command He gave the promise that, if he should preserve the dignity of the soul by giving the victory to reason, and acknowledging his Creator and observing His command, he should share eternal blessedness and live to all eternity, proving mightier than death: but if forsooth he should subject the soul to the body, and prefer the delights of the body, comparing himself in ignorance of his true dignity to the senseless beasts, and shaking off His Creator’s yoke, and neglecting His divine injunction, he will be liable to death and corruption, and will be compelled to labor throughout a miserable life. For it was no profit to man to obtain incorruption while still untried and unproved, lest he should fall into pride and under the judgment of the devil. For through his incorruption the devil, when he had fallen as the result of his own free choice, was firmly established in wickedness, so that there was no room for repentance and no hope of change: just as, moreover, the angels also, when they had made free choice of virtue became through grace immovably rooted in goodness.

It was necessary, therefore, that man should first be put to the test (for man untried and unproved would be worth nothing), and being made perfect by the trial through the observance of the command should thus receive incorruption as the prize of his virtue. For being intermediate between God and matter he was destined, if he kept the command, to be delivered from his natural relation to existing things and to be made one with God’s estate, and to be immovably established in goodness, but, if he transgressed and inclined the rather to what was material, and tore his mind from the Author of his being, I mean God, his fate was to be corruption, and he was to become subject to passion instead of passionless, and mortal instead of immortal, and dependent on connection and unsettled generation. And in his desire for life he would cling to pleasures as though they were necessary to maintain it, and would fearlessly abhor those who sought to deprive him of these, and transfer his desire from God to matter, and his anger from the real enemy of his salvation to his own brethren. The envy of the devil then was the reason of man’s fall. For that same demon, so full of envy and with such a hatred of good, would not suffer us to enjoy the pleasures of heaven, when he himself was kept below on account of his arrogance, and hence the false one tempts miserable man with the hope of Godhead, and leading him up to as great a height of arrogance as himself, he hurls him down into a pit of destruction just as deep."


I bet his Greek was better than Calvin's!

[Alamo-Girl]

Er, if I may … with regard to Proverbs and Malachi (and Psalms 139 btw)…

Evidently you see love and hate as mutually exclusive. Although it may seem logical, it is not exclusive in Scripture.

Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.

And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. – Matthew 22:36-40

God is love (1 John 4) and love is the method of the indwelling Spirit:

If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. – John 14:15-21

So how do we understand the above and the Great Commandments and 1 John 4 in Light of this commandment?:

If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. – Luke 14:26

The answer here is the same as with Esau and all kinds of evil-doers whether mortal or immortal: We are to love God absolutely and above all else, including parents, spouse, children. In that respect we are “hating” all who are not God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) in that we love them infinitely less. Nevertheless, we are to love everyone unconditionally – like we love ourselves, even if they are an enemy:

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. – Matthew 5:43-48

IOW, we are not to love anyone else less because they are our enemy – or more because they are our family. And we are to love all of these as we love ourselves, infinitely less than we love God.

Therefore, when I read that God hates Esau I remember that He also loves Esau, but because of Esau’s heart and behavior, He hates him, has judged him to be lesser and has made him a vessel of His wrath.

The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? [Was] not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. – Malachi 1:1-3

But we ought not try to imitate God in this. IOW, we ought never to be judging the beings themselves, only their fruits (Matthew 7, Galatians 5) and other such matters (I Corinthians 6):

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: - Luke 6:37

IOW, the Great Commandments are that we must love everyone (including our enemies) unconditionally as we love ourselves - but above all else, infinitely higher, we must love God with every fiber of our being.

[Frapster]

Bravo! Great post.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for the encouragement! Hugs!!!

[MarMema]

Thank you both for your excellent contributions.

[mdmathis6]

He also "takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked"...which is why he sent his son!

[HarleyD]

"Sorry, John Calvin has twisted "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" and "Who gave himself a ransom for all" into something that fits with his personal biblical interpretation...

Well, at least you made it to the third paragraph.

[Alamo-Girl]

You're quite welcome, MarMema! Thank you for the ping!

[RnMomof7]

Interesting. So, that IS the objective-- to be avoided by non-Calvinists. Hmmmm.

I made a point to address it to all the Calvinists. I like discussion , so if a non Calvinist has an observation or wants to discuss it, we welcome all comers.

That was not the case with you. You posted

I didn't finish this piece, but I've read a few of these Calvinist screeds and I just have to say that the more I read about Calvinism the less attractive I find it. What is your purpose in posting this stuff?

You did not like it, you did not read it all, you had no scriptural or doctrinal rebuttal ...only your "feelings"

Arminians like to discuss "feelings" Calvinists like to discuss the word or theology .

You asked why I posted it? I ask why you read it. No one is forcing you too.

.Just "pass over it

[HarleyD]

You're right on. Another verse I came across yesterday:

"All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." Luke 10:22

How on earth could anyone explain this sentence from a "Jesus died for everyone" perspective. (And, yes, by all means look at the context.)

[RnMomof7]

We are not discussing Hyper Calvinism . Please keep to the discussion of the opening post and don't bait a fight OK?

I trust our regular posters will stick to the topic and nut be led back to the smokey back room