The "World" of John 3:16 Does Not Mean "All Men Without Exception

http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/calvinism/full.asp?ID=277 ^ | 6/15/04 | David J. Engelsma

[MarMema]

God's love indeed extends to all mankind.

More than that. God is love.

[redeemed_by_His_blood]

The verse just can't be interpreted that way!

It can, and should, when read within the context of the whole of Scripture.

[MarMema]

What we need,when these calvinist articles are posted are inputs by those who understand the greek, aramaic and latin texts from which these verses including the passages of predistination have been translatied into English. When I read the surrounding contextual verses in John and the predistination passages as well, I don't see how hypercalvinists can justify what they are saying. So what does the greek actually say?

Ask and you shall receive. I hope. :-)

[redeemed_by_His_blood]

Psalm 5
4For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness,
Nor shall evil dwell with You.
5The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;
You hate all workers of iniquity.
6You shall destroy those who speak falsehood;
The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

Why do you find it so distasteful that God doesn't love everybody, but hates the workers of iniquity as God's Word says?

I suggest that you read into Scripture your own philosophy which reflects your own feelings.

[MarMema]

we are determined, out of love for the truth, to oppose the lie of a love of God in Jesus Christ for all men without exception

Mom, if God is perfect and is love, then His love is also perfect. Perfect love means it would extend to anyone and everyone.

Indeed the closer we are to God, the more able we are to love everyone, not just those we like. This is because we are putting on/exhibiting the perfect love of God.

[MarMema]

Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God.

He who does not love does not know God; for God is love.

In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent His only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him.

In this is love, not that we loved God but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the expiation for our sins.

Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and His love is perfected in us.

By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His own Spirit.

And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son as the Savior of the World. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

So we know and believe the love God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

In this is love perfected with us, that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as He is so are we in this world.

There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love.

We love, because He first loved us.
(I John 4:7-19)

[JohnnyM]

"I suggest that you read into Scripture your own philosophy which reflects your own feelings."

The irony is fascinating.

JM

[P-Marlowe]

I don't appreciate you stirring the pot -

Interesting. Someone posts an article about how God has no love whatsoever for the un-elect. You disagree strongly with that article (as, I would suspect, do most of the GRPL members). I simply point out how you, as member #55 of the GRPL do not agree with Engelsma's EXTREME position (defined by Philip Johnson as a hyper-Calvinist position) and you rag on me for stirring the pot.

I was just being observant. Seems to me that you were the one stirring the pot against Engelsma and his position (either that or the person who posted the article was attempting to stir the pot against those who believe that God has a love for all mankind.)

I suspect that more members of the GRPL agree with you than agree with Engelsma. But then I've been wrong before.

Carry on.

<><

Marlowe

GRPL reject #2

[redeemed_by_His_blood]

Seems there are a lot of folk that believe God's Word contradicts itself.

Psalm 5 says God hates the workers of iniquity and they are destined for destruction.

But the semi-Pelagians here still insist that God loves everyone without exception when God says He doesn't.

I guess they think God was lying when He said He hated Esau before he was born or did anything too.

Malachi 1
1 The burden[1] of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.

2 "I have loved you," says the LORD.
"Yet you say, "In what way have You loved us?'
Was not Esau Jacob's brother?"
Says the LORD.
"Yet Jacob I have loved;
3But Esau I have hated,
And laid waste his mountains and his heritage For the jackals of the wilderness."

Romans 9

[MarMema]

"If You Only Had One Sweet Son
And You Gave His Life To Save Ten Wicked Men.
And They Returned And Denied That You Gave Your Only Son For Them
And Said You Child Never Exist No One Died For Us."
"Please Go Right Now And Call You Child To You
And Measure You Love For Him
And Turn And Look At The Most Sinful Man You Know
And Think If You Would Trade Your Presus Son For Him.
God Is Love."

Howard Finster

[jude24]

No one ever said that the gospel was easy to hear or ordained to tickle the ears of everyone .

Calvinism is not the Gospel. If it were, there could be no Christian non-Calvinists, and anyone who rejected the 5 points would be rightly termed heretics.

[Frapster]

Your posting history precedes you.

[jude24]

If you want to talk about "stirring the pot," this very article, with its provocative title and content, does precisely that.

[P-Marlowe]

Your posting history precedes you.

What history is that?

[dangus]

The word in question is "Kosmos." It means all that is, in totality.

The article makes quite a sleight of hand. Even if one were to take up the straw man position, that "the world" means simply, "everyone," than look how well that fits into the passages provided:

"For God so loved [everyone], that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

"Behold the lamb of God, who takes away the sins of [everyone]."

"I do not pray for [everyone], but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

Of course, Kosmos does not mean everyone, and even non-Calvinists are rarely universalists. The Catholic Church condemnes universalism, for instance. But Kosmos does mean "the world," in totality, even if not each and every part of the world.... we know He does not love evil. Jesus can love the world, without promising universal salvation.

And he orders us to do likewise. We are told, "Love thy neighbor." Not, "love thy neighbors who are just" or "love thy neighbors who accept the gospel" or "love thy nieghbors who shall become Christians later on." Rather, he tells us to "love thy enemies"... as *he* did.

[Frapster]

I don't disagree - my original post was edited significantly and I decided to keep my commentary on the motivations for these kinds of postings out of it for the time being.

[walden]

Uh-huh. Right.

[dangus]

And just to clarify:

"God loved the world in this way: that He sent his only son, so that those (of the world, which he did love) who believe shall not perish, but have eternal life."

Notice also that the sentence DOES place a qualification on salvation: belief. But notice that the condition belongs to the human, and not (directly) to God. (Of course, the human belongs to God, and does not do what God does not ordain him to do.)

Now, I'm not advocating the heresy that man is the agent of his own salvation: it is true that no man can believe unless the Holy Spirit moves him to faith. But this verse, and many, many others present believers as making a decision, not being inert receivers.

The verse could say, "...so that those to whom faith has been given..." It does not. It says, "...so that whosoever believes..."

[dangus]

No, Colleen, you take it too far.

"All," as used in Timothy does not refer to each and every individual, but to every portion of the whole. IOW: "All people" people of every categorization, not each and every individual. The bible says, "then went all of Judea to be baptized." There were over a million people in Judea. Did John Baptise each and every one of them? Did Caiaphas and Annas get baptised by John? Of course not.

[jude24]

The verse could say, "...so that those to whom faith has been given..." It does not. It says, "...so that whosoever believes..."

Actually, it says neither.

The Greek says, i/na pas o/ piste/uwn eis au/ton m/h apo/letai . (ina pas o pistenon auton me apoletai). A literal rendering would be "that all that believe in him might not be destroyed." The sense of Jn. 3:16 in the literal Greek, as I understand it, is that who believe will not perish. Universality does not really enter into the equation in Jn. 3:16 in the Greek.