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I’m in!

excellent post, sky.

Joyce is in my prayers.

I do understand that you feel attacked. And I do recognize that some others can be a bit harsh.

However, let me relate something to you.

While I was at BYU, I would go down to center street and “window shop”. There was, at that time, a Christian bookstore whose owner would come out every time he saw me, even crossing the street if necessary (he knew I was at BYU b/c I had ordered a KJV Apocrypha and a BHS study guide that I could not get through Deseret books) to ask me questions.

It did not feel like “love”, it felt like an attack, and it was part of the reason I set out to prove the “anti’s” wrong. But it DID make me think.

Am I perfect? Yes and No. I am perfect, in the sight of God, because I am washed in the blood of His Son, Jesus. God sees me through that blood, and therefore I am perfect in the sense that I am worthy to be in His presence again, regardless of my failings. This is called Justification.

However, I, in my mortal, fleshly self, am still a sinner. I have feelings, I get angry, I am discourteous at times. IOW, I am still a “work in progress”. But my works are not going to get me into the presence of God, but the work God is doing in me, through is Holy Spirit, helps me to better reflect Christ in me. This is called Sanctification and is ongoing.

Hope this helps.

placemarker

Yes, I did. It is asked as a “yes or no”, in my mind I was following the WoW. Only now, do I see that VERY FEW LDS ever really follow the whole thing.

That is what happened to the RLDS, they have changed a lot since the 1970’s. Many of the Rank and file no longer even accept JS as a prophet. Perhaps you are correct.

I will still follow this thread and if anybody here is willing to show me their faith and the light that Christ has given them, I try to jump back in, but if it’s only going to be a “Kill the damn Mormon” love fest, I’ve got better things to do.

Luke 18
9 And he spake also unto certain who have been trusting in themselves that they were righteous, and have been despising the rest, this simile:
10 ‘Two men went up to the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee, and the other a tax-gatherer;
11 the Pharisee having stood by himself, thus prayed: God, I thank Thee that I am not as the rest of men, rapacious, unrighteous, adulterers, or even as this tax-gatherer;
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all things — as many as I possess.
13 ‘And the tax-gatherer, having stood afar off, would not even the eyes lift up to the heaven, but was smiting on his breast, saying, God be propitious to me — the sinner!
14 I say to you, this one went down declared righteous, to his house, rather than that one: for every one who is exalting himself shall be humbled, and he who is humbling himself shall be exalted.’

Are we the pharisee or are we the tax-gatherer/publican?

- - - - - - - - -
We have tried many times, yet you fail to acknowledge that. How can we discuss the differences between Christianity and Mormonism if all you do is claim we “attack” you.

I thank God, I am the publican. I look to God’s mercy alone to save me by the precious blood of Christ.

The point is SALVATION is not in what DO, IT IS IN WHAT YOU BELIEVE.

Christ said “By their fruits ye shall know them.”

- - - - - - -
Yes He did, but it is not talking about Christians.

The context of the verse (remember context is VERY important) shows that he was talking about false prophets.

Matthew 7:15-20:

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Now if you wish we can discuss the “fruits” of the Prophet Joseph Smith, but I fear you will consider that an attack as well.

You said: “Okay, I will QUOTE something that the FOUNDER of your religion: ‘If You be the Son of God, change these stones into bread.’ Once again, I can play this little game that your side plays so well of attempting to dehumanize, demonize, and ‘stupidize’ the other side.”

Umm... Satan is the one you quote above (Luke 4:3). You are saying that Satan has founded Christianity? I do find that offensive, and wonder if you are sincere in finding out why Christianity is correct. But you are not correct in claiming that this offensiveness has a moral equivalence to Elsie’s ‘offensiveness’ (nor were Communism and Capitalism morally equivalent, as suggested in another post).

True, Elsie had been ‘beating up on’ Mormonism rather than trying to show where Christianity is right. You claim, “It’s the old ‘I want to show you why you are wrong and by doing that, I don’t have to show that I am right, because you must assume that I am right if you are wrong’ logical fallacy.” Why is this our logical fallacy? If Mormonism is right, then Christianity is not (and Satan really is the founder of our religion). If Mormonism is false, yes, Buddhism or Islam might be true rather than Christianity, but this is not your position: you believe the Church (of Latter-Day Saints) to be true. The fallacy you describe is actually your own position in this argument.

But you asked, “Show me out of the scriptures why you are right,” then ignored the posts that do quote the Bible. You have quoted scholarly work on Psalm 82 that is from a “top Evangelical scholar” to prove the Mormon multiplicity of gods must be true, and a “Methodist minister” to show the unreliability of the scriptures we have: that is, that the Bible is only the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly (the LDS 8th article of faith). If I respond with another scripture, will you attack me for failing to address your arguments? If I address your posts, will you attack me for ‘attacking’ your faith rather than showing why I am right?

I’ll take the second risk: Psalm 82 is a poetic way of denouncing other gods as false; if the LORD were in a council of gods, as the non-Hebrew peoples believed, He would have to immediately condemn them as failing in their duties. They fail because they “know not, neither do they understand,” being imaginary. They will “die like Adam, and fall like one of the Shining Ones” not because they have an actual independent existence, but because, being poetic figures, they cannot survive the end of the trope.

On the reliability of Scripture, I’ll also have to risk ‘attacking’ your faith. Your position as a Mormon is the correctness of the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible, and the corresponding falseness of any other version of the Bible. Yes, I do know the Church also claims it to be unfinished, but the purpose of your link is not about the sufficiency of the JST, but rather the falsity of any other translation. In your own words, “It’s the old ‘I want to show you why you are wrong and by doing that, I don’t have to show that I am right, because you must assume that I am right if you are wrong’ logical fallacy.” This is not intellectual honesty, as you demand from other posters. Mormonism will not be proved true even if Christian or Hebrew scriptures are proved faulty. I will also point out that we cannot prove the truth of Christianity to you out of the Bible when you say, “Also, don’t expect my interpretation of those scriptures to agree with yours.” You will not learn the good if you refuse to hear it. You seem to want to attack the faith of others rather than prove what’s right with your own beliefs.

How can we prove Christ’s love for you? You have preemptively disclaimed personal testimony: “The argument of ‘I’m happier now than I use to be’ doesn’t hold much water since both sides say it.” This variation on the old ‘moral equivalence’ theme shows your unwillingness to listen, and is part of a larger pattern. If we cannot personally testify, and cannot use the Bible, then perhaps Elsie is right and the only way to show the love of God to you is to deny the testimony of Joseph Smith, the heart of your logical fallacy.

Godzilla is right to point out your ‘projection’ onto others. You are guilty of all the faults of which you complain, including vitriolic attack. I do not say this to ‘spew hate,’ but to show love: this “little game that your side plays so well” is in your own head. This was not a thread on ‘Is Mormonism inferior to Christianity?’ but one on a minor sports incident - your defensiveness made it a theological discussion. Is your own testimony weak, so that attacking non-BYU supporters bolsters it?

He did a finished work when He shed His blood on the cross for us to save us...

And He did it without help...

- - - - - - -
I read something interesting about this and why the Atonement COULD NOT have take place in the Garden.

Luke 22:43 An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him.

There were no angels ministering to Jesus on the Cross.

IF the atonement had been in the Garden, then the presence of a ministering angel would have “eased” the anguish of Him taking upon himself the sins of the world. Therefore, the “sacrifice” would have been incomplete, since God eased the burden with the presence of an angel.

However, with the atonement taking place on the Cross instead, with no comfort, the Atoning sacrifice was complete.

I think the rank and file Mormons do risk temple recommends and such for certain types of transgressions that other “more devout” proven full blown invested and hard core members could get away with.

- - - - - -
Thank you. You know, I hadn’t thought of that but it makes sense.

Well, I don’t think he found the final set of questions so easy to lie about.

BZZZT. Nice try but incorrect.

I apologize if my manner and methods are not up to YOUR standards, but then again, I do not go by YOUR standards. I go by God’s.

I does not matter what I say or how I say it, you have an agenda and you will twist anything to fit your agenda. Isn’t that exactly what you accused me of doing?

Mind reading again, which BTW, is against FR religion forum rules. I get no joy out of doing this. I do it because I am called to it. In fact, being insulted on a daily basis is tiresome. Yet I press on, for if only one Mormon will examine their faith, discard it and look to Jesus alone to save them, it is worth it. BTW, it has already happened twice here on FR.

Say what you want about me and the other “inmans”, there have been results and for that we give ALL glory to God.

One of the most interesting tid-bits in this story is that the man went unpunished. He maintained his community standing, his marriage, his temple recommend. Of course, he knew how to lie.

Seven years later the man’s failing business burned to the ground. An electrical accident, the insurance company pronounced. His brother and father were electricians.

Thirteen years later, he died of a prescription drug overdose at the age of 55. Still he was a member in good standing and a Recommend holder. Lot of good it did him.

Excellent, thoughtful post.

Indeed. And yet we are the ones spewing hate. It is terrible that the ones she thought were surrounding her with love were quite the opposite.

I would have included the lines, for context, if you had not parroted LDS teachings that Satan is the founder of us “apostate Christians”. So, no I do not believe that it was taken out of context.

I am assuming since you mentioned “fifty years” that you have taken out your Endowments and did so prior to the March, 1990 changes.

If so, then you are familiar that the protestant minister was portrayed as a “hireling of Satan”.

But for your edification, and to prove that the LDS leaders HAVE taught that Christianity is evil (and even of the devil - the Catholic church was equated with the Church of the Devil AKA “the great and abominable church”), here are some quotes for you:

My favorite is when JT states that modern Christianity was “hatched in hell”.

2nd LDS President Brigham Young - “when the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness” (Journal of Discourses 5:73).

“The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God” (Journal of Discourses 8:171).

“With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world” (Journal of Discourses 8:199).

“Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked on to the earth” (Journal of Discourses 6:176).

The “Brother Taylor” Young refers to is John Taylor, who after Brigham’s death in 1877, became the third president of the LDS Church. Here are some of his feelings toward Christianity:

“We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense…the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century” (Journal of Discourses 6:167).

“What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast.” (Journal of Discourses 6:25).

“What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing….Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest of fools; they know neither God nor the things of God” (Journal of Discourses 13:225).

LDS Apostle Orson Pratt - “…all other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who receives Baptism or the Lord’s supper from their hands highly offend God, for he looks upon them as the most corrupt of all people” (The Seer, pg. 255).

First Counselor (to Brigham Young) Heber C. Kimball - “Christians - those poor, miserable priests Brother Brigham was speaking about - some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth….” (Journal of Discourses 5:89).

How does it make me feel? It does NOT make me angry at you.
It makes me feel sorry for you. Sorry that you are so blinded. As far as wanting to know more about LDS beliefs, remember I was a faithful, active, member of the LDS for years. I studied, researched, read everything I could get my hands on. I was consistently told that I knew more about the LDS doctrine than many who were BIC.

My “tactics” have been quite calm and reasonable, a review of my posts show a concern, an address of your questions and much more politeness than you have shown. But hey, that is alright. I do what I do because I believe it is a calling from God. If it makes you feel better to insult me then go ahead. My posts have not been full of “anger” and “hate” as you so claim.

As far as half-truths and duplicity goes, the LDS are masters.

When I was preparing for my LDS mission, I was disturbed by the Missionary Discussions and how they ignored doctrines and teachings or just glossed over them. When I questioned why “if we have the whole truth, why can’t be be honest about our beliefs?” I was told by my BYU prof that “if we told the whole truth, no one would join”.

It is common for the LDS to accuse “anti’s” of lying or only telling half the story. I did it when I was LDS. I set out to PROVE the anti’s were doing just that. What I found out, through using ONLY LDS sources, what that the Church was lying and covering up, not the anti’s.

How do you think that made me feel? I poured everything I had into the LDS, all of my time, talents, everything “to the building up of the Kingdom of God” only to find out *I* was the one being lied to.

Losing your faith is not easy. Especially when you have family, friends, a culture included with it.

Trusting Christians after that was even hard. I was so afraid that the SAME thing would happen again. So instead, I didn’t put my faith in any “church”, or trust what anyone told me. Instead, I compared what I was told with the Bible, I researched and what I came to discover was that I only NEEDED to trust ONE Person, Jesus.

LOL. My “agenda” is the Glory of God, and the spreading of the Gospel of Grace. I do not need to “twist” anything. The Bible contains the “full Gospel”, all I need to do is “Return and report”. Although I do giggle at your attempt at reading my mind.

As Newton’s third law states “Every action has an equal and opposite reaction”. You cannot give positives, without creating a negative. It is simple, either Christianity is “true” and Mormonism false, or Mormonism is “true” and therefore Christianity is false.

I really do not care if you believe I am happy or at peace. I can tell you how Jesus has changed my life, how He enables me to forgive those who offend me (including you), how He has washed me clean from my sins and given me eternal life. Yet if I do not adopt an attitude of “live and let live” with the LDS, then I suspect it will not be enough for you.

You have kept insisting that I only give negatives, yet a review of my posts will show quite the opposite. I share my faith with the LDS (as I have above with you), so that they too may have the peace and joy that only Jesus can bring.

BTW, I HAVE found Christ. Or more precisely, Christ found me. “I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see.”

I will pray that someday you too will see that God will open your eyes.

Yes. The fact that the Mormon Times has a resident apologist-columnist-calmist on board (Michael Ash), who does his umpteen "how not to intellectually panic" series shows that "it came to pass that Salt Lake City desireth the day of internet darkness."

They tore her to shreds. She is now an atheist - 20 years later she has never recovered. Pray for her, please. Her name is Joyce.

Help me out here, but what is unclear about this?

Romans 1:17 "The just shall live by faith."

John 3:16 "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Ephesians 2:8 "By grace are you saved through faith."

Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ."

I must confess, sometimes I feel that talking to an LDS member leaves me with the same feelings of exasperation as when talking to a liberal Obama supporter. Facts mean nothing, and when even more facts are introduced, it is time to change the subject, switch gears, throw lots of dust in the air, grasp at straws, and then shoot the messenger.

I have heard that there is nothing we can do, that only God chooses those whom He wants saved and the rest go to Hell and there isn’t anything they can do about it, while I have also heard that we help in our salvation by doing God’s will. These two views are in absolute conflict with each other.

There is nothing we can do. What are you going to do? Are you going to argue with God on Judgment Day? Do you have Johnnie Cocharan on your payroll?

Are you going to shove all your good works in front of Him, with documentation and footnotes, and demand He take that in account? Do you think there is this little court reporter next to God's throne that is going to add up your works, subtract your sins, and hand the balance sheet to the Almighty?

Reaganaut already told you. I'll repeat it - it is Christ alone that saves. Good works are a manifestation of being saved, and they please God. You and I have zero negotiating power for our eternal destiny because of them.

As to the concept of election, the bible says God has mercy upon those He will have mercy upon. It isn't up to you or me to tell Him what to do.

Matthew 22:14"For many are called, but few are chosen."

I ask, how do you know that I have already fearlessly explored the facts and have already discovered

Because you don't know Jesus Christ. If you did, you would not accept the false teachings of Joseph Smith and the LDS church. A tree is known by its fruit. You are openly professing a belief in a false prophet, in a false gospel, in false doctrine, and in a false god.

Now, I am not condeming you. I didn't know Him either, and to be honest, I really didn't want to. But, He wouldn't let me go.

My experience was similar to that of C.S. Lewis when he said, "You must picture me alone in that room at Magdalen, night after night, feeling, whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. That which I greatly feared had at last come upon me. In the Trinity Term of 1929 I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England. I did not then see what is now the most shining and obvious thing; the Divine humility which will accept a convert even on such terms. The Prodigal Son at least walked home on his own feet. But who can duly adore that Love which will open the high gates to a prodigal who is brought kicking, struggling, resentful, and darting his eyes in every direction for a chance of escape? The hardness of God is softer than the softness of men." (C S Lewis)

I am all for the open debate and dialogue. One of the men I admire most, in the entire world today, is Dr. Ravi Zacharias. He addressed the LDS church in Salt Lake, and he spoke the truth in love. You can see the entire video here:

Ravi Zacharias in LDS Tabernacle

He spoke about his visit by saying this:

To the critics who objected to my being there, I say that all my life as an apologist I have spoken across wide chasms of thought and virtually to every major religious group, sometimes at the risk of threats and violence. Differences ought not to keep us from carrying the truth to everyone. Must we not graciously build one step at a time in communicating our faith with clarity and conviction? Is it really necessary at the early stages of such openness to “dump the whole truckload of goods,” rather than first gaining a hearing and respect? I have no doubts about the differences between the LDS faith and the historic Christian faith, differences that are deep and foundational in terms of authority. But the proclamation of the living Christ can break down hearts all over the world that we might see ourselves as He sees us and call upon Him and no one else for our salvation. Must not our methods be in keeping with our message? There are numerous instances in Scripture where Jesus went to those of a contrary view and with grace, sowed one small seed at a time. I must also add that the courtesy and graciousness extended to me by every Mormon leader or professor that I came into contact with cannot be gainsaid. My earnest prayer is that the Lord was honored in what happened and that the opportunities that come from this event will multiply. There is no other name given under heaven whereby we may be saved. How we communicate that name is equally important as the message itself if we are to be persuaders of men and women under the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

I asked this in post #43 in response to what you posted to reaganut: Tell me, which specific biblical passages tell us that the foundations of Christian doctrine are not true. Please don't provide some glossy generalization. Tell me specifically.

I ask again, can you tell me?

Grace brought me such sweet relief!

All those years I looked at that long list of things I MUST do and I could never get them all checked off. I couldn’t lie to myself - and I knew very well I wasn’t worthy. How was I to know when I had “done all I could do?”

When I finally came to Christ, he covered me.

Psalm 27:1 The LORD is my light and my salvation—
whom shall I fear?
The LORD is the stronghold of my life—
of whom shall I be afraid?

2 When evil men advance against me
to devour my flesh, [a]
when my enemies and my foes attack me,
they will stumble and fall.

3 Though an army besiege me,
my heart will not fear;
though war break out against me,
even then will I be confident.

4 One thing I ask of the LORD,
this is what I seek:
that I may dwell in the house of the LORD
all the days of my life,
to gaze upon the beauty of the LORD
and to seek him in his temple.

5 For in the day of trouble
he will keep me safe in his dwelling;
he will hide me in the shelter of his tabernacle
and set me high upon a rock.

Thanks cc, hoped you would. Your real life example goes to show just how judgemental lds are to their owns - to the point of destroying them. There is no grace, no effort to assist one who is having difficulties - just drop the hammer because they weren't worthy enough anyway.

Most Christian churches I know who have someone fall into a sin problem would offer help to them to overcome the issue. Removal from fellowship would only occur if the person was actively acting against the church or had committed a serious crime such as murder, rape, etc.

Since the whole town 'knew' about this woman, almost sounds like something from Lord of the Flies as they circle in on one who is weak.

(...countdown...til a Mormon tells me it was for her own good...9...8...7...6...)
__________________________________________________

(...countdown...til a Mormon tells CC she is a liar..that would never happen....9...8...7...6...)

cc,
You must have felt a HUGE weight lifted off your shoulders
when you found out that nothing you could ever do would
be good enough to try to earn salvation! When you learned
that Christ has already paid the full price for your salvation.

And when you learned that in Him you are made holy from
the inside out!

I can only imagine the relief.

best,
ampu

I'll answer your rhetorical question anyway....Yes it is THAT important.

A young man was called on his mission, and his mother didn't attend the Temple with him when he took out his endowment. Instantly the small town gossip exploded. Why hadn't his mother attended? She was active in Church, held many positions, and had held a recommend for at least 20 years.

The gossip never died down. Eventually she was called in to a Bishops court where they would access her "worthiness." The whole town knew she was having "issues" with the commandments and eventually she was excommunicated. It was a blight on her whole family. All eight of her children were put through a tremendous amount of shame and judgment. She didn't learn how to lie either.

(...countdown...til a Mormon tells me it was for her own good...9...8...7...6...)

“PS, before telling soemebody they are full of filthy rags, I hope we can follow the advice of the Bible and clean up our own house first before pointing an accusing finger at another.”

Even if everyone who has posted to you on this thread was
as sinful as could be, it would not change the truth that
salvation does not come through your works, which indeed
are just filthy rags, but through faith in the gracious
work of the Savior.

All your post does is substitute character attacks for dealing with objective truth. A simple Ad Hominem attack,
which is a logical fallacy.

“In fact, they refuse to even acknowledge his [horndog joseph smith] past and even go so far as to promulgate revisionist history with his life.

Not only that, they even hire or use lds artists to
draw representations of him that make him look handsome -
to match the sanitized revisions they put out of his life.

In fact, he was a con man, as he admitted himself and a
horndog - not qualified on either score to even hold the
Church office of Deacon (though, since the LDS isn’t
a Christian Church, that may not matter to them...).

It is a fabrication built on a lie, built on a con man.

It was partially tongue in cheek, but it doesn’t suprise me. I suspect that wow gets a lot less attention than say the tithing question.

Since you couldn’t lie like that - is the recommend that important to lie for (rhetorical question).

urrrrer,

“You (not you specifically, but to those who do this) dictate to me my beliefs and you make them sound as bad as possible and some of what you said, if not most or all of it, is half-truths or very duplicitous. So, I’ll tell you what I do, I do what you have done and see how you react.”

No one is “dictating to you what you believe”.

We are simply using the writings of mormonitism to
demonstrate what it teaches. We do not know if you
individually believe the entire false teaching creed
of mormonism.

Unfortunately, since mormonism teaches that members
should “lie for the lord” under the guise of “milk
before meat”, it must be done. If not for your personal
sake, then for the sake of those who read these threads
who may be sucked into the cult themselves.

Best,
ampu

You learn how to lie.

My mom went in to renew her Temple Recommend with her Bishop and was turned down over her admission that she had partaken of some tea.

When she got home, she was disappointed and told my dad she didn’t get a recommend.

“Oh hell,” said my dad. “Even I know the right answers.”

If you lie to your Bishop, he never knows how “worthy” you are. You get the prerequisite recommend and you go to the Temple - no one wiser. You get to maintain your status as a TBM and do whatever you want to.

I never could live like that. I guess that’s why I’m an ex-Mormon.

hadn’t thought of that. :)

was that directed at me?

So, if you were the no caffine group and your bishop was a no hot drinks group - did you get a check for following wow or not?

Yes, I did go to BYU and I know a thing or two about logic within a discussion.

Well, there is hope yet isn’t there.

- - - - - - -
One of my Grad advisors, when finding out I had gone to BYU said, “Don’t put that on your CV”.

When I was LDS, there were 2 schools of thought regarding the WoW. There was the no caffiene group (that was me, but I did drink hot HERBAL teas) and then the no “hot drinks” group (no coffee and tea). However, both groups allowed for Hot Chocolate and the like.

But your post made me realize something. NO LDS I know, could say they follow the WoW honestly, because the D&C section specifially says “HOT DRINKS”, which would include Hot Coffee and Tea (Herbal and otherwise), Hot Chocolate, Postum (LDS fave for a while), Hot apple cider, etc, and even soup (soup is classified as a beverage in Culinary circles).

Also, then ICED coffee and tea would be allowed since the prohibition is against HOT drinks.

Further, very few LDS I know limit their intake of meat, which is also part of the WoW.

Finally, WINE is ALLOWED, as long as it is “by your own make”. Something that modern LDS forbids.

I can see how some would answer that they follow it, but in reality do not.

Doctrine and Covenants 89 (in full):

1 A aWord OF Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—
2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the aword of wisdom, showing forth the order and bwill of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—
3 Given for a principle with apromise, adapted to the capacity of the bweak and the weakest of all csaints, who are or can be called saints.
4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of aevils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of bconspiring men in the last days, I have cwarned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—
5 That inasmuch as any man adrinketh bwine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, apure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.
7 And, again, astrong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.
8 And again, tobacco is not for the abody, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.
10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome aherbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—
11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with aprudence and bthanksgiving.
12 Yea, aflesh also of bbeasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used csparingly;
13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be aused, only in times of winter, or of cold, or bfamine.
14 All agrain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;
15 And athese hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.
16 All grain is good for the afood of man; as also the bfruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—
17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.
18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, ashall receive bhealth in their navel and marrow to their bones;
19 And shall afind bwisdom and great ctreasures of dknowledge, even hidden treasures;
20 And shall arun and not be bweary, and shall walk and not faint.
21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the adestroying angel shall bpass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

Re: Why is Y. ignoring Hall’s spew of hatred?
From urroner | 12/04/2009 1:02:36 PM PST new

I’m glad to see that Jesus exited his judgment seat so you can sit in it and decide that Joseph Smith is damned to Hell. That is a fine Christian attitude, if a person doesn’t agree with the Christian, that person is going to Hell, even before Christ has judged him. The Christian has already decided the person’s eternal fate and the scripture that tells us not to judge is null and void for true believing Christian.

And we Mormons are condemned for being so judgmental.

I’m not angry at anybody on the thread, I just have other, more important things to do.
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Grasshopper, I never like to see a unsolicited FReepmail to me go unexposed and unshared ...

I like to get them out into the light of day and into the thread...

If its good enough for you to whisper into my ear, its good enough to shout to the world...

Didnt they tell they that about me over at FARMS ???

Dont send me any more...

If you have something to say to me have the guts to put it in the thread...

Intellectual honesty time James Talmage, a Mormon Apostle, said Psalm 82 is not about becoming gods.

"In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called 'gods.' To this scripture the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon's Porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted title 'gods.' Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Exo. 4:16; 7:1). Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of God transmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute. The inconsistency of calling human judges 'gods,' and of ascribing blasphemy to the Christ who called Himself the Son of God, would have been apparent to the Jews but for their sin-darkened minds." (James Talmage, Jesus the Christ, page 501)

Is there a double standard here - you require Christians to only deal with the Bible and not make reference to mormonism, yet you willing do it here.

I have read the Bible and studied it. I have read all sorts of anti-Mormon material and my faith still holds in Christ.

Define "Christ" here for the gathered lurkers.

Alas, it just boils down to, when all the cards are showing, is just feeling that what that person believes is the truth.

Truth is absent from the picture? All the cards - do you believe smith is a prophet given he has yet to produce a reputable prophecy that has come to pass.

All the cards on the table - do you believe in Smith's first vision, even though there are at least 6 others from him that contradict the official story.

All the cards on the table - where is all the archaeological support here in the americas for an advanced society of hebraic peoples (both in language, culture and worship)? What theory put forth by mormons is there to believe? Malaysia, all western hemisphere, North America only, and a tiny little spot in Central America.

All the cards on the table - why did smith mangle the translation of the papyrus used for the book of abraham?

Alas, it just boils down to, when all the cards are showing, is just feeling that what that person believes is the truth.

Alas, this is similar to the AGW scientists - they just 'feel' AGW is true, contrary to the factual evidence.

“Kill the damn Mormon” love fest

Ah, the victim card played again. Please point to anyone here wanting to 'kill' a mormon - crickets.

PS, before telling soemebody they are full of filthy rags, I hope we can follow the advice of the Bible and clean up our own house first before pointing an accusing finger at another.

Oh, we wouldn't call you filthy rags, we would call your works filthy rags - and to be more precise urroner - they are like menstrual cloths - as ALL our WORKS. That is why Paul, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any many should boast.”—Ephesians 2:8-9

You desire to work for your grace. I prefer to rely upon what the bible stated above.

Are we the pharisee or are we the tax-gatherer/publican?

Which sounds closer to what a mormon will say?
I thank Thee that I am not as the rest of men, rapacious, unrighteous, adulterers, or even as this tax-gatherer;
. . I fast twice in the week. .
. . I give tithes of all things . .

The pharisee was relying upon his works for God's favor. Sounds like the mormon trying to complying with the “laws and ordinances” of the gospel, in order to do "all you can do” to pay your sin-debt to Jesus

The publican relied upon God's mercy without works - God granted him righteousness because he relied upon God and not his works.

Have a nice weekend anyway.

good grief, they bug me, but not that much! Although after this I bet the increase requests. LoL thank you!!

:)

Thank you for showing us your fruits.

Temple recommend questions when I was LDS (and still are from all reports):

6. Do you affiliate with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or do you sympathize with the precepts of any such group or individual?

— - - - - - - -
MY bishop specifically asked if I associated with “apostates”.

An apostate, by definition, opposes the teachings and practices of the LDS church.

So, either you are lying to the bishop, someone is giving you a pass on this part, or they are failing to uphold the standards of temple worthiness.

Grasshopper stick around...

You are lucky to be here amongst Christian men and women who can teach you about the REAL Jesus ...

Jesus came to save us...

God the Father loves us so much that He sent Him to shed His blood on the cross and die for us in our place...

All we have to do is believe and accept what Jesus did for us...

There’s nothing hard about that and theres no work involved...

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

I’m a whosoever and so are you...

What Jesus will do for me, He will also do for you...

Feel free to continue to do so. My “feelings” won’t get hurt.

I’m not as thin-skinned as some might think.

SZ

In comparing the two figures, Forbes noted that Mitchell and LeBaron were both raised in LDS environments; were later excommunicated from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints but continued to maintain a belief in church founder Joseph Smith and his teachings; and controlled those around them by using their own interpretations of revelations and threats of death.

- - - - - - - - - -
There are many LDS splinter groups who believe the LDS church (SLC) has fallen into apostasy, either over changes in the temple, allowing blacks to have the priesthood, or polygamy.

The “one mighty and strong” is a recurring theme among these groups.

These cases also show just how rotten the “fruit” of Joseph Smith is.

I’m sending this in with the next RNC donation letter I receive (which ought to be soon considering they bug us about every other week with a donation request!)

Christ said “By their fruits ye shall know them.” Okay, can anybody here tell me what type of fruits have the true Christians been showing me here.
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If you dont like us kid...

No wonder you dont like our Jesus ...

Jesus didnt go around gathering friends...

He told people the truth...that they needed a savior...

He said He was God and that savior...

He told them how to get saved...

Jesus said mnothing about having to work for salvation...

he did say He had done it all and there was nothing more necessary for Nana and the Flyoing Inmans to have to do to be saved...

“It is finished” John 19:30

What was finished ???

Everything that jesus came to do to win our redemption from the death penalty for our sins...

Jesus died right then went down into Hell walked up to Satan ordered him to hand over the keys and got the keys to death, Hell and the grave..

which Jesus has kept ever since...Jesus was and is the only one worthy to have those keys...He has never given them to anyone...

Jesus is the one who judges us...

Jesus has always been God...He was the word in the beginning and He became flesh and dwelled amongst us as Jesus...that Name above all names means SALVATION...

Anyone who would think a mere pagan adulterous, murdering, con artist like the criminal Joey Smith would sit in the place of the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ the Lord, in Heaven ...

That person has their mind sucked out and is listening to demons...

It is the Jesus of the Christian Bible who sits at the right hand of God the father...not that sniverling wimp Joey Smith...

Joey Smith has nothing to do with whether or not anyone gets into Heaven...

Joey Smith has never been not will he ever be a judge over the people of God...

Joey Smith right now is in Hell, screaming for Lazarus to come and dip his finger in some water for him...

Have to follow LDS Inc. SOP. It’s in the contract...

You keep demanding “intellectual honesty” yet have failed to provide any yourself.

Several of us have told you what we believe, and our experiences, and even quoted scripture, yet all you do is whine that there is no “intellectual honesty” in our posts and you keep playing the ‘victim card’ by claiming all we are doing is “attacking” your faith.

Well, if the scriptures we post disagree with LDS doctrine or with your subjective “testimony”, then we are not ‘attacking’ your faith, we are showing you what the BIBLE says. It is not our problem that the Bible disagrees with LDS doctrine.