Free Republic

“Where do you think you got that Bible you worship? Do you think it just dropped from heaven? Nope. It was collated by the Catholic Church. Sola Scriptura? Phui.”

I haven’t met anyone who worshiped the Bible. However, respect ought to be shown to what the word of God says, and all scripture is “God-breathed”.

It was also used as scripture for hundreds of years before the Catholic Church drew up a list of books. No one waited 400 years before citing the letters of Paul or the sayings of Jesus as authoritative!

“mr. rogers thinks he’s s theological scholar...I’m just becoming very tired of self promoting “theologians” attacking my individual walk with Christ and the specific tenets of my Church.”

I suggest you get a refund from your mind reading school. As I have pointed out a number of times, including to the person (NYer) who pinged me to this thread, I think I’m a retired Electronic Warfare Officer. The ping inviting my comment suggested that this affair in the Episcopal church in some way shows that the Reformation was wrong. I have responded.

I don’t know of any Christian who denies Jesus instituted the Eucharist at the Last Supper. All Protestants, in some form, deny transubstantiation, which is the doctrine the Catholic Church developed. Baptists and some other denominations deny the Eucharist needs a priest to perform it, since there were no priests found in the Apostolic teaching. That isn’t quite correct - there is a universal priesthood taught by Peter and Paul, that offers a sacrifice of praise and good deeds, but that isn’t what transubstantiation and Catholic Priests are involved in doing...

“The Church built upon the “Rock” Peter the 1st Pope”

The Church is built on Jesus Christ, and the teachings of the Apostles and Prophets. If Jesus planned to make Peter the “Vicar of Christ”, it would have helped if he hadn’t denied that any Apostle was the ‘greatest’, and it would have helped if he had referred to Peter as above the rest. In essence, it was the Bishop of Rome claiming to be above all other bishops that caused the church under Rome to break away from the rest of Christianity around 1000 AD.

“Purgatory actually is from Old Testament books the Reformers removed from the Apostolic bible.”

No, there is one mention of prayer for the dead commended in the Apocrypha. The Apocrypha was sort of accepted as canon in 400 AD, but MOST refused to use it for doctrine. That is the practice of the Orthodox today, and was common opinion in the time of Martin Luther. The Protestants reject it as scripture because “16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.” - 2 Tim 3 By the standard widely used in Catholic thought thru 1500 AD, and used by the Orthodox, this would make the Apocrypha something other than scripture.

“Believe it or not some of the 15th century Reformers actually removed the Book of James for a period of time because he intimated works were necessary for salvation...”

Inaccurate. Martin Luther questioned the canon of James based on authorship, just as he also questioned Hebrews. That was acceptable in the Catholic Church at the time, since the canon wasn’t set authoritatively for Catholics until the Council of Trent a few years later. However, every New Testament translated by Luther had James and Hebrews included. IN fact, his questions were raised in his introductions to those books in his translation of the New Testament!

“The earliest new testament books didn’t even exist until late in the first century... and early Christians practiced their faith based upon Christ instituted Apostolic worship... the first gospels weren’t even written until after 60 AD.”

The first writings that were accepted as scripture on par with the Old Testament were probably Paul’s letters (45-65 AD?), followed by the Gospels. 60 AD is 30 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus, not a long gap. Purgatory was unknown. Indulgences were unknown. Penances were unknown. Confession to a priest was unknown. The Eucharist was “Thanksgiving”. Baptism was done to believers.

Given that Paul claims to have taught “the whole counsel of God”, and John wrote, “Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works” - 2 John - it seems reasonable to question those practices.

And when I am told no Pope has ever taught error, it seems appropriate to mention a Pope condemned by ecumenical counsel for teaching error. And when I am told that “The early Church established the sacraments based upon the specific teachings, words and activities of Jesus”, it seems appropriate to ask “Where?” Where do we find Penance? Where do we find confession to priests? Where do we find Priests? Where do we find Purgatory, etc?

“Jesus taught me to “Judge not lest ye be judged.”

Inside the Church, we are most certainly taught to judge the truth of doctrine, and hold to the truth. “12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.” - 1 Cor 5

That was never official church policy; it was the disobedience of the near unanimity of the American bishops who were warned in 1961 that the ordination of homophilic (homosexuality is by classicial definition not celibate) priests, even those sincerely expecting to remain celibate, would likely cause grave scandal, since the rigors of celibacy (not merely abstinence, but celibacy) require great sexual and emotional health.

That said, those priests who had homophilic leanings but remain chaste received their ordinations obediently, regardless of the disobedience and foolishness of their bishops. If they have managed to remain chaste, their virtue is all the more heroic, since their chastity is probably a far greater burden than it might be to a healthy person. (This is sorta like admiring the guy who showed up for his marathon training 50 pounds overweight, but still finishes.)

However, I would sincerely wonder how you could out a chaste priest.

I think this nut job might be shooting himself in the foot. He’s casting a suspicion on any of the priests who might be soft on gay issues. And if he actually outs anyone for violating his celibacy, he’s only going to make it easier for the church to marginalize that priest.

It’s still actually amazing to me that the local media speaks about this in objective tones, as if the debate is over whether it’s fair to out a closeted homosexual. There’s no mention made about the issue of extortion.