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Alberta's energy prominence makes it a terror target, conference toldJoel Kom, Canwest News Service Published: Friday, June 20, 2008 CALGARY -- Alberta's emergence as an energy superpower already has made it a target for international Islamic terrorists, but the province's growing oil and gas wealth could also help breed homegrown terrorism, law enforcement officials and advisers said Thursday. After opening an anti-terrorism conference in Calgary for security professionals in government and law enforcement, city police Chief Rick Hanson said it's not just extremism from abroad that has to be on the radar. "The risk of homegrown local terrorists, in the...

PORTLAND, Ore. - An environmental activist and former fugitive who once won thousands of votes in a congressional election pleaded guilty Tuesday to federal charges under a deal that would send him to prison for two years. Tre Arrow, 34, pleaded guilty to the destruction of concrete-mixing trucks in Portland in April 2001 and to firebombing logging trucks at a contested logging sale near Mount Hood in June 2001. He had faced up to 40 years in prison if convicted of two counts of arson. In a separate case, a radical environmentalist who helped federal officials round up a militant...

The activist pleads guilty in two arsons and will serve at the Sheridan federal prisonTre Arrow, a radical environmentalist who was once one of the FBI's most-wanted fugitives, pleaded guilty Tuesday to two counts of arson. Appearing before U.S. District Judge James Redden, Arrow agreed to serve to 78 months in federal prison, with credit for time served since March 2004 in jails in Canada and the United States. Arrow, who will be formally sentenced Aug. 12, will serve about two years and four months at the Sheridan Federal Correctional Institution. His sentence could be further reduced by 54 days...

Federal prosecutors are seeking a 10-year prison sentence for Briana Waters, a California woman convicted in March by a federal grant jury of assisting in the 2001 Earth Liberation Front arson that destroyed the University of Washington's Urban Horticulture Center. That recommendation includes a "terrorism enhancement," according to a sentencing memorandum filed by prosecutors Wednesday in U.S. District Court. The UW arson sought to strike a blow against genetic engineering of poplar trees, and federal prosecutors say that meets the legal definition of a violent act "calculated to influence or affect the conduct of government by intimidation or coercion," according...

PORTLAND, Ore. – Tre Arrow, a radical environmentalist who was once one of the FBI's most-wanted fugitives, has announced on his Web site he has accepted a plea deal on federal arson and conspiracy charges. Arrow had entered a not guilty plea. His attorney, Paul T. Loney, confirmed on Wednesday Arrow “is changing his plea” and a hearing date has been set for next Tuesday. The U.S. Attorney's office in Portland did not immediately return a call seeking comment. Arrow, 34, who has legally changed his name from Michael Scarpitti, is charged in a 14-count federal indictment with helping to...

VIENNA, Austria — Austrian authorities say they are questioning 10 animal rights activists suspected of arson, sabotage and other crimes. Investigators say six of the suspects have been placed in pretrial detention for their alleged involvement in militant animal rights groups. Officials allege that the suspects are behind numerous arson fires and vandalism targeting food, clothing, pharmaceutical and agricultural companies. Prosecutors say the 10 were arrested earlier this week after a monthslong investigation into radical animal rights groups. Austrian media reported today that one of the suspects has begun a hunger strike while in custody. Investigators say the suspects used...

Invoking the Red Scare of the 1950s, some environmentalists claim the federal government is committing something similar against the green movement of the 2000s. Of course, it could simply be vigorous enforcement of laws against violence and property damage. According to court documents, Briana Waters, convicted in the 2001 arson at the University of Washington Center for Urban Horticulture, is afraid that by remaining in prison she will lose her deep connection with her three year old daughter, Kalliope. She has justification to be worried about her sentencing on Friday, May 30. Throughout the grand jury process, the indictments,...

An environmental activist has been sentenced to nearly 20 years in federal prison for conspiring to destroy a Northern California dam, a genetics lab and other targets. Eric McDavid, 29, of Foresthill, was convicted in March for masterminding what FBI agents described as an eco-terrorist plot in the name of the Earth Liberation Front. The group has claimed credit for arsons across the West. McDavid's defense lawyer argued that his client was a victim of entrapment by an FBI informant. Two co-conspirators pleaded guilty and testified against McDavid. They are awaiting sentencing. According to court testimony, the three considered bombing...

WOODINVILLE, Wash. — Explosive devices were found inside luxury houses set ablaze Monday morning outside of Seattle, and police suspected that a well-known eco-terrorism group ignited the fires. The multi-million-dollar development known as "Street of Dreams" in Woodinville, Wash., burst into flames in the early morning hours, and Snohomish County crews fought to contain the blaze. The Earth Liberation Front, known for violent acts in the name of environmentalism, left a sign at the scene and was suspected to have set fire to the swanky, newly built neighborhood. The Federal Bureau of Investigation released a statement saying that the FBI,...

A few hours after a $50 million condo project burned down, apparently in an eco-terror attack, Earth Liberation Front spokesman Rod Coronado stood in front of a San Diego audience and explained how to build a homemade Molotov cocktail. Now, Coronado is going to trial in federal court on a single count of distributing information on explosives, destructive devices and weapons of mass destruction with the intent that his listeners commit illegal acts of violence, a charge that could land him in prison for up to 20 years under post-Sept. 11 legislation. Prosecutors say Coronado, a longtime environmental activist renowned...

11:14 AM, Wednesday, August 1, 2007 A federal judge on Wednesday reimposed a sentence of four years and three months on Jonathon Christopher Mark Paul, the last of 10 defendants indicted in Eugene for arson in environmental causes. Paul’s lawyer had challenged the sentence after a hearing June 5. Paul, a widely known environmental activists from Southern Oregon, again renounced arson as an activist tactic in a statement in court on Wednesday. U.S. District Judge Anne Aiken rebuffed four legal challenges to the sentence and required Paul to read the book “Three Cups of Tea” and to write a book...

A man who set firebombs in seven large SUVs last March pleaded guilty and was sentenced to 12 years in prison Wednesday. Grant Barnes... using the methods of the eco-terrorist group Earth Liberation Front... When Barnes was arrested, police found a box of seven of the devices in the back of his car. Police said they are replicas of bombs shown on ELF's Web site.

When Gareth Groves brought home his massive new Hummer, he knew his environmentally friendly neighbors disapproved. But he didn't expect what happened next. The sport utility vehicle was parked for five days on the street before two masked men smashed the windows, slashed the tires and scratched into the body: "FOR THE ENVIRON." "The thought of somebody vandalizing it never crossed my mind," said Gareth Groves, who lives near American University in Northwest Washington. "I've kind of been in shock." Police said they see small acts of vandalism in the area from time to time, but they have not seen...

Vandals Batter D.C. Man's SUV, Slash Its Tires and Scratch In an Eco Note On a narrow, leafy street in Northwest Washington, where Prius hybrid cars and Volvos are the norm, one man bought a flashy gray Hummer that was too massive to fit in his garage. So he parked the seven-foot-tall behemoth on the street in front of his house and smiled politely when his eco-friendly neighbors looked on in disapproval at his "dream car." It lasted five days on the street before two masked men took a bat to every window, a knife to each 38-inch tire and...

Two years after his 2002 graduation with honors as a double major in physics and math, Cottrell was charged and convicted as one of the nation's first ecoterrorists of the post-Sept. 11 era. He was found guilty of conspiracy and arson in the 2003 firebombings of Hummer and other sport-utility vehicle dealerships in the Los Angeles area to advocate a radical environmentalism. Two conspirators remain at large... In what prosecutors say was an example of his brazenness -- his supporters say it evidenced his behavioral disorder, one that's akin to a high-functioning autism -- Cottrell became a remorseless braggart while...

Major fire at Wal*Mart 777 Story Rd. Smoke obstructing 280 Fwy. Large FD and emergency respose, judging by the number of sirens I'm hearing.

Ex-University of Chicago 'genius' turned ecoterrorist But prominent physicists take up Billy Cottrell's cause LOS ANGELES -- William "Billy" Cottrell was such an exceptional student at the University of Chicago that he was described by his professors as something of an eccentric genius. He even won the award for best senior thesis in physics, addressing string theory, which seeks a single unifying way to explain all forces and all forms of matter. Today the 27-year-old is in jail. Two years after his 2002 graduation with honors as a double major in physics and math, Cottrell was charged and convicted as...

Published: Sunday, July 1, 2007 No other book club could approach its diversity. There was a trust fund kid and a Dumpster diver. There were potheads, growers and dealers. There were anarchists and longtime social activists. There was a straight-A student, a high school dropout, a computer geek and a young father reportedly addicted to heroin. Their "Book Club" was anything but typical. It was where many of them met - not to share literature and poetry, but to study arson, sabotage and subterfuge. Most went on to radical activism in a group that referred to itself as "The Family."...

The 73-year-old man who strung heavy cables across a trail on the San Francisco Peaks that clotheslined a motorcyclist won't be going to jail. J.D. Protiva will receive supervised probation for one year after pleading guilty to three counts of felony endangerment in a case in which a motorcyclist hit one of the cables and was thrown from his bike in September. He was also banned from the Coconino National Forest. Protiva was sentenced Tuesday after telling a Coconino County Superior Court judge he had gone too far in a frustrating attempt to ban motorcycles and protect nesting sites for...

The FBI and the Los Angeles Fire Department are investigating an anonymous claim that animal rights extremists placed an unexploded incendiary device found under the car of a prominent UCLA eye doctor last weekend. The incident was similar to one last year in which another UCLA researcher was the intended target. A gasoline-filled device was discovered Sunday by the car outside the Westside home of Dr. Arthur Rosenbaum, who is chief of pediatric ophthalmology at UCLA's Jules Stein Eye Institute. The device did not ignite despite evidence of an attempt to light it, authorities said Thursday. An e-mail on Wednesday...

Who Will Defend Industry from Eco-Terrorism? Tuesday, February 14, 2006 By: Onkar Ghate Man's method of survival--transforming nature to meet his needs--must be defended against environmentalism's attack. The good news: a federal grand jury in Eugene, Oregon, has indicted 11 people on charges that they committed acts of domestic terrorism on behalf of the Earth Liberation Front and the Animal Liberation Front. Moreover, now one of the FBI's "highest domestic terrorism priorities," according to director Robert S. Mueller III, is to prosecute people who commit crimes "in the name of animal rights or the environment." Nevertheless, it remains worrisome that...

Defense attorneys expressed outrage Tuesday when federal prosecutors compared 10 Earth Liberation Front arsonists who are awaiting sentencing to Ku Klux Klan arsonists. The six men and four women, branded eco-terrorists, have pleaded guilty to charges related to 20 fires set in five Western states from 1996 to 2001 that caused $40 million of damage. Targets included the Vail ski resort, wild horse corrals, National Forest ranger stations, meat packing plants, research laboratories, lumber company offices and a tree farm. The 10 are to be sentenced starting next week. Federal prosecutors asked Judge Ann Aiken that a so-called terrorism enhancement...

Residents of some normally peaceful neighborhoods expressed concern about the defensive mood that has descended over their towns. One elderly lady complained, "I used to take my begonia outside for a little fresh air and sunshine every day, but now I'm worried for her safety! I just keep her safe, indoors now".

The Oregon Court of Appeals on Wednesday overturned the 22-year sentence given to environmental activist Jeffrey Michael Luers for burning three SUVs at the former Romania truck lot and for trying to set fire to the Tyree Oil Co. in Eugene. The court upheld all 10 of Luers' felony convictions from his 2001 trial, but ruled that he was improperly sentenced to back-to-back prison terms in each of the crimes. Luers, 28, is considered a "political prisoner" among some activists who contend his 22-year, eight-month sentence is disproportionately harsh, considering that no one was injured in either crime and damage...

A man who police say used wires, broken bottles and nails to wage an eco-terrorism campaign against Lubbock cyclists could spend time in prison. David G. Knape, 62, of Lubbock staged at least a year-long campaign against unsuspecting cyclists, according to police reports. He stretched wires between trees at "neck level" and put nails and glass in the pathway of cyclists. "This could kill someone," said Dewayne Wallace, an avid cyclist whose friend was flung from his bicycle and cut across the neck by one of the wires. Wallace spent months looking for Knape, who now faces two felony charges...

Why is it that, "Whenever Nature displeases us, it must be our fault for doing something that displeased Nature"? This was a question raised by John Berlau of the Competitive Enterprise Institute, speaking at the Heritage Foundation on January 23, 2007 in support of his new book "Eco-Freaks: Environmentalism is Hazardous to Your Health!" If the winter's too hot, summer's too cold, hurricane Katrina too extreme, environmentalists always conclude that it's because we did something wrong, like atmospheric pollution, habitat destruction and/or the paving of America. Not only does this knee-jerk reaction indicate a colossal sense of self-importance, that importance...

Excerpted from article by John Berlau of Competitive Enterprise Institute, author of Eco-Freaks: Environmentalism Is Hazardous To Your Health Violence by environmental radicals has become depressingly common in the U.S. Radical eco-terrorists commit arson and corporate sabotage, and some groups have a decentralized structure that seems modeled after jihadists’ diffuse networks of terrorist cells. Regrettably, mainline environmentalist groups have not taken a lead in denouncing direct-action radicals who care little about human life... ...They may no longer believe that humans will starve themselves by exhausting all resources, but that’s not really important to them. They think humans roam on too...

Who says there's never any good news? After more than 30 years and tens of millions dead -- mostly children -- the World Health Organization (WHO) has ended its ban on DDT. DDT is the most effective anti-mosquito, anti-malaria pesticide known. But thanks to the worldwide environmental movement and politically correct bureaucrats in the United States and at the United Nations, the use of this benign chemical has been discouraged in Africa and elsewhere, permitting killer mosquitoes to spread death.

1998 Fires At Vail Ski Resort Cost $12 Million In Damage. Two people accused of setting the 1998 fire at the Vail ski resort will be sentenced in December on eight counts of arson stemming from the blaze that caused some $12 million in damage. Chelsea Gerlach and Stanislas Meyerhoff, both 29, were arraigned Wednesday in federal court in Eugene. They are to enter pleas and be sentenced on Dec. 14, when they are also to be sentenced for other arson-related crimes to which they pleaded guilty in July. Under plea deals, both agreed to have the Colorado charges transferred...

Animal Rights Group Claims Credit for Botched Arson Attempt- (07/31) The Animal Liberation Front (ALF) web site is claiming responsibility for a failed arson attempt in Los Angeles. On June 30, an incendiary device, intended for the home of a UCLA psychiatry professor, was placed at the wrong address. Fortunately, for the elderly homeowner the device did not detonate and no one was injured. ALF claims that the intended target of the explosive device was keeping monkeys to study "psychological, psychiatric and social problems such as Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder, substance abuse, criminality and violence." Arson investigators stated that had...

Three would-be eco-terrorists were arrested in Auburn last January for plotting acts of sabotage for the Earth Liberation Front. But would there have been a conspiracy without the prodding of FBI infiltrator Anna? By Cosmo Garvin The arrest of three alleged eco-terrorists on January 13 was thanks to the work of a mysterious FBI informant who went by the name of Anna. On the morning of January 13, the FBI was keeping a close eye on a cabin in Dutch Flat, about a half-hour north of Auburn. The government had the cabin and its four occupants--two men and two women--under...

The number of attacks by extremists on researchers using animals has decreased, according to figures released by the Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry (ABPI) yesterday. In the first six months of this year, 15 incidents were recorded at people's private homes, compared with 32 in the same period last year. The figures also show a drop in almost every area of activity by anti-vivisectionists, with demonstrations down from 670 to 424. "Good progress has been made ... in combating animal rights extremists," said Philip Wright, the ABPI's director of science and technology.

Federal Bills Crack Down on Animal Rights Terrorism- (07/24) Two bills in the U.S. Congress tighten penalties for anyone convicted of committing an act of terrorism against a legally operating animal-use business. Congress is currently considering S. 1926, sponsored by Sen. James Inhofe, R-Oklahoma, and H.R. 4239, sponsored by Rep. Tom Petri, R-Wisconsin. The bills, introduced late last year and currently being heard in their respective judiciary committees, close loopholes in the existing anti-terrorism law and stiffen penalties for convicted terrorists. Provisions in the bills will ensure that domestic animal rights terrorists are brought to justice for their crimes. The...

3 more plead guilty in Oregon to ecoterrorism Trio were part of group that planted bombs around western U.S. July 21, 2006 EUGENE, Ore. - Three more people pleaded guilty Friday to being part of an ecoterrorist cell that planted fire bombs around the West. The trio are accused of trying to stop logging, wild horse roundups, genetic engineering of plants, sport utility vehicles sales and expansion of a ski resort into endangered lynx habitat. In pleading guilty, the three admitted they were part of the Earth Liberation Front and Animal Liberation Front, loose-knit groups of environmental activists that claimed...

Health insurance in this country dates to the 1850s, but it wasn't until the 1930s that "Blue Cross" health-care plans were introduced. During World War II when wages were frozen, many employers began providing their workers medical coverage in lieu of raises. "Major medical" was introduced in the early 1950s, and by the end of the decade, more than 80 million Americans -- nearly half of the population -- had employer-funded health insurance. Things were going along just fine until the politicians made health insurance an entitlement rather than a perk earned through achievement. First, it was Medicare, then Medicaid....

EUGENE -- Three members of a loosely knit underground movement of eco-saboteurs pleaded guilty Thursday in federal court for their roles in a conspiracy to set fire to U.S. Forest Service offices, lumber businesses, meat processing plants and a car dealership over six years. Kevin Tubbs, Kendall Tankersley and Darren Todd Thurston appeared separately before U.S. District Judge Ann Aiken, admitting they participated in a variety of fires as members of the Earth Liberation Front and Animal Liberation Front. The pleas signal a significant turning point in the government's ongoing investigation into a long stretch of coordinated firebombings by the...

Pledging to continue cooperating with prosecutors, three defendants in a sweeping multistate federal investigation of arson by environmental radicals took plea deals in federal court in Eugene on Thursday. Their recommended sentences will range from three to 14 years, substantially less than they could have faced had they gone to trial. At their sentencing hearings, the government will argue their crimes violate the federal anti-terrorism law. All are scheduled for sentencing in December. Three more defendants are scheduled to appear for similar hearings Friday. Four others are awaiting trial and three are fugitives believed to have fled the country. Springfield...

Animal rights group targeted UCLA professor 10:04 a.m. July 13, 2006 LOS ANGELES – The Animal Liberation Front tried to attack the Bel-Air home of a UCLA primate researcher with a “Molotov cocktail,” but left it at the wrong house, an FBI official said. The ALF said in a statement it had left a bottle filled with a flammable liquid on the porch of Lynn Fairbanks' home in Bel-Air on June 30. FBI spokeswoman Laura Eimiller said the bottle had actually been left at the home of a 70-year-old neighbor. “According to arson investigators, they believe that, had the device...

America’s universities are both the major targets as well as the incubators of a rapidly growing class of criminals—eco-terrorists. “The Department of Justice named them the number one domestic terrorist threat,” Sen. James M. Inhofe, R-Oklahoma, told a college-age audience at the Eagle Forum’s annual summit on Capitol Hill in Washington, D. C. “Their direct actions include bombings, stalking of individuals and teaching members how to commit arson.” “They attacked and destroyed a ski lift, an SUV dealership, and an apartment complex.” Four hundred tenants were evacuated from that complex. Sen. Inhofe chairs the U. S. Senate Environment and Public...

Its happening. Anti-technology activists who describe themselves as environmentalists are on the Big Island chopping down papaya trees. Big Island farmers may be at risk of eco-terrorism as part of a Greenpeace anti-genetic modification (GM) campaign focused on events half a world away—in Thailand. In a May 25 publicity stunt dutifully picked up on the front page of the Hawaii Tribune-Herald, West Hawaii Today and the Honolulu Star-Bulletin, Greenpeace operatives backed by photographers donned white full-body “haz-mat suits� (actually painters' suits available at many hardware stores) and posed for the cameras. They wrapped a small section of a 9.1 acre...

A federal grand jury in Denver has indicted four people on eight counts of arson for a series of eco-terrorism fires set at the Vail ski area in 1998. Those indicted are: Chelsea Dawn Gerlach, 29, Stanislas Gregory Meyerhoff, 28, Josephine Sunshine Overaker, 31, and Rebecca Jeanette Rubin, 33. Gerlach and Meyerhoff are presently in federal custody in Oregon, facing separate arson charges. The whereabouts of Overaker and Rubin are unknown. The Two Elks Lodge and other structures on Vail Mountain were burned to the ground on Oct. 19, 1998. Damage was estimated at $12 million. A group called the...

LYONS — Adam Durand was sentenced yesterday to six months in jail for trespassing on Wegmans’ Wolcott egg farm while he and other animal rights activists filmed conditions there in 2004. Durand was immediately taken to the Wayne County Jail, but his attorney, who called the sentence excessive, said he may appeal. Judge Dennis Kehoe, who called Durand the mastermind of a blatant and carefully orchestrated crime, fined him $1,500 yesterday and also sentenced him to one year of probation and 100 hours of community service. “You entered your victim’s hen house without permission,” Kehoe told Durand. “You did this...

Who is a terrorist? After the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing that killed 168 people, it was clean-cut Timothy McVeigh, a brooding loner — infused with hatred of the government — who was convicted and put to death for that crime.

Grand Junction, Colo. (AP) -- At least three crude bombs exploded and two others were disarmed Friday outside homes in western Colorado. No injuries were reported, and there was no immediate claim of responsibility. Authorities were focusing on "two people of interest" as officers continued searching for clues, said Police Sgt. Paul Quimby. "We are concerned there are others out there that no one has discovered yet," he said. The bombs were described as black, office-style trash cans covered in silver duct tape. One explosion scorched the front of a garage door and melted vinyl siding. . . . The...

PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) — A federal grand jury in Eugene on Thursday indicted two more people in the 2001 arson at a Clatskanie tree farm, court officials said, bringing the number charged in the case to six. In all 14 people are charged in what government prosecutors describe as an arson conspiracy across several Western states over five years. Nathan Frazer Block, 24, and Joyanna L. Zacher, 28, were arrested Thursday in Olympia, Wash., after the 14-count indictments were handed up. Advertisement Government attorneys will seek their return to Eugene to face trial, said Karin Immergut, U.S. Attorney for Oregon....

SAN DIEGO (Reuters) - A radical environmental activist has been indicted by a federal grand jury for demonstrating how to build a firebomb in a speech just 15 hours after a fire that his group claimed responsibility for destroyed a large apartment complex being built nearby. Rodney Adam Coronado, a 39-year-old member of the Earth Liberation Front, was indicted on a charge of giving instructions on how to build a destructive device, which carries a maximum sentence of 20 years in federal prison. The indictment was unsealed on Wednesday. The law under which he was charged has been used just...

Feds arrest environment radical over S.D. speech By Onell R. Soto UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER February 23, 2006 Federal agents arrested a radical environmentalist yesterday who practically dared prosecutors to charge him over a speech he gave in Hillcrest as a University City housing complex smoldered from an arson 2½ years ago. Rodney Coronado, 39, of Tucson was indicted in San Diego on charges of demonstrating how to make a destructive device with the intent that the information be used to commit arson. Coronado is a national leader for the Earth Liberation Front, said Daniel Dzwilewski, special agent in charge of...

The Sunday Times January 29, 2006 ALF threatens all out war against Oxford students Jon Ungoed-Thomas and Nick Fielding ANIMAL activists have for the first time threatened violence against all staff and students at Oxford university over its plans for a £20m animal research laboratory. In a posting on an internet site, the Animal Liberation Front (ALF) has told its supporters that any academic, student or company connected to Oxford is a legitimate target, irrespective of whether they are involved in animal research. The warning threatens to turn the laboratory into one of the biggest confrontations between animal rights activists...

Three environmental activists were cooking up plastic explosives and had planned to test a device the day they were arrested, federal prosecutors alleged Wednesday as they indicted them. The three face five to 20 years in federal prison if they are convicted of conspiring to use fire or explosives to damage property. The suspects planned assaults this spring in the name of the Earth Liberation Front, a 'loosey-goosey, sort of mist-of-the-fog kind of an organization' of environmental activists, U.S. Attorney McGregor Scott said. Eric McDavid, 28, Zachary Jensen, 20, and Lauren Weiner, 20, remain in jail. They could enter a...

The good news: a federal grand jury in Eugene, Oregon, has indicted 11 people on charges that they committed acts of domestic terrorism on behalf of the Earth Liberation Front and the Animal Liberation Front. Moreover, now one of the FBI's "highest domestic terrorism priorities," according to director Robert S. Mueller III, is to prosecute people who commit crimes "in the name of animal rights or the environment." Nevertheless, it remains worrisome that we still dismiss such terrorists as deranged individuals who pervert the ideology of environmentalism. Even more worrisome is that few of us intellectually grasp, and then rise...