You know, Doc E. was notorious before, but she just seems pitiable now. This whole time, the truth about Pius XII and the Catholic Church’s role in saving Jews during the 1930s and 40s has been outlined to her time and time again, but she just can’t let go of her rotting body of falsehoods.

KGB fiction, designed as an anti-Catholic smear, yet praised on Free Republic as "excellent."

Yeah, that's an appalling thread.

I want to thank you for this information.

Most ironic thing about this whole thread?

It never occurred to me before tonight to speculate or care about the religious heritage of Martin Gilbert.

But to see him dismissed as just some Jew who agrees with Rome, and to see Rabbi Dalin dismissed as a “house Jew,” well, that’s just infuriating.

Let me outline what those "notable" things were, as the link above describes:

"The famous Mit Brennender Sorge shows the hand of Pacelli, then Vatican Secretary of State; more directly, as papal legate, Pacelli spoke these scathing words to 250,000 pilgrims at Lourdes on April 28, 1935: 'They [The Nazis] are in reality only miserable plagiarists who dress up old errors with new tinsel. It does not make any difference whether they flock to the banners of the social revolution, whether they are guided by a false conception of the world and of life, or whether they are possessed by the superstition of a race and blood cult.'"

"...On behalf of the Jews of Slovakia, Pius XII intervened directly and — contrary to the allegations of his accusers — in unambiguous terms. A government ordinance, called simply the Jewish Code, was passed on September 9, 1941, parroting the anti-Semitic regulations of the Third Reich. A lengthy note was prepared by the Vatican Secretariat of State and transmitted on November 12 to the Slovak minister to the Holy See, Karl Sidor. It read in part: '...With the deepest sorrow the Holy See has learned that also in Slovakia, a country whose population almost totally honors the best Catholic tradition, a "Government Ordinance" was issued on September 9 establishing special "racial legislation" and containing various regulations in open contrast with Catholic principles. In fact the Church, universal by the will of her divine Founder, welcomes to her bosom people of all races, and views all mankind with a maternal solicitude for the purpose of creating and developing among all men feelings of brotherhood and love, in accordance with the explicit and categoric teaching of the Gospel.'"

"...The papal nuncio in Romania, Monsignor Andrea Cassulo, exercised his considerable diplomatic and spiritual authority in behalf of the Jews throughout the war; he made his first formal efforts as early as February 16, 1941. He worked untiringly to win the government's permission to send Jewish orphans to Palestine, and with some success. On October 20 he registered an official protest with Mihail Antonescu, Minister of Foreign Affairs, against the government's admitted plans to regulate the Jewish question, and came, through his repeated intercessions, to be known to the Jewish population of Romania as an ever-willing source of assistance."

"...The Catholic bishops of Holland published a pastoral letter read in all the Catholic churches throughout the country on April 19, 1942, condemning the unmerciful and unjust treatment meted out to Jews by those in power in our country. And in a telegram dated July 11, 1942, the bishops demanded the suspension of coercive measures against unchristened as well as christened Jews. But the deportations continued. On July 26, the bishops joined with representatives of almost all other religious communities to denounce the Nazis' lawless measures, but the response, as we have seen, was mass arrests of Catholics and Jews, among them Dr. Edith Stein, a convert to Catholicism and a nun, who was sent to Auschwitz."

"How receptive the Vatican was to proposals for helping the Jews is illustrated by the story of the now legendary Father Marie-Benoit of Marseilles. Conditions in France had become acutely dangerous for Jews by late 1942; the Vichy government had promised to deliver 50,000 Jews of foreign origin to the Germans, and had begun a ruthless manhunt that summer, especially in the large cities on the Mediterranean coast. Vichy had been allowing Jews to slip into Southeastern France, a free zone, for several years, so that the normal Jewish population of some 15,000 had increased by many ten thousands when Italian forces entered the area on November 11, 1942. Father Marie-Benoit, a Capuchin priest, not only persuaded the Italian inspector-general of police in Nice, Guido Lospinoso, not to comply with the deportation orders, but proceeded — under the perhaps deliberately blind eye of the Italian occupation forces — to turn his monastery in Marseilles into a veritable rescue factory manufacturing passports, identification cards, certificates of baptism, and employers' recommendation letters for Jews, and to smuggle numbers of Jews into Spain and Switzerland. But the priest was not satisfied with these enterprises, and took advantage of a trip to Rome — he had been summoned by the Italian government to be censured for his suspected activities — to present a larger plan to Pius XII on July 16, 1943. In essence, the plan would include gathering information on the whereabouts of Jews deported from France eastward, particularly to Upper Silesia, the location of Auschwitz; obtaining more humane treatment of Jews in French concentration camps; working for the repatriation of Spanish Jews who were residing in France; and transferring some 50,000 French Jews to North Africa where, in view of Allied military successes, they would be safe. The Pope agreed heartily with Father Marie-Benoit's plan, and helped him obtain pledges of support from Britain and the United States as well as from Jewish organization sources in the Allied countries. But the project was destined to fail; with the surrender of the Badoglio government to the Allies, German troops swept into the Italian zone of France, and thousands of Jews fled in panic across the Alps into Italy and Switzerland."

"...The history of Vatican intervention in Nazi cruelties to the Jews dates back to April, 1933, when Pope Pius XI sent an urgent request to the then new Hitler government not to let itself be influenced by anti-Semitic aims. From 1939 onward, the public record shows countless Vatican intercessions on behalf of Jews, both prompted by pleas from Jewish and other sources and owing to the personal initiative of Pius XII. Many German Catholic prelates met their death as a result of their criticism of the Reich for its treatment of Jews. One, Msgr. Bernhard Lichtenberg, dean of St. Hedwig's Cathedral in Berlin, called on his congregation to pray for Jews and inmates of concentration camps after the pograms of November, 1938, and his many similar protests led to his arrest in October, 1942. We have been comforted to hear . . . that the Catholics, especially the Catholics in Berlin, have extended much love to the so-called non-Aryans, and in this connection We want to say a special word of fatherly appreciation and heartfelt sympathy for Father Lichtenberg, who is imprisoned. Father Lichtenberg voluntarily applied for transfer to the ghetto in Lodz, but was sent to Dachau instead; he died on the way to the camp in November, 1943."

I shall end at this point. You all can read it at this link from the Jewish Virtual Library, which I also provided above.

It is sickening. No smear is too low for those believing they were predestined to do the smearing.

“Jumping the Shark” doesn’t quite seem to cover it.

Dr. Eckleberg’s infamy went viral tonight. Stratospheric in a sickening way I wish I hadn’t been here to witness in real time.

I have to admit that I have found this thread appalling.

One Bread, One Body

Which edition of Gilbert's Holocaust do you own?

When was the first time you read it?

And the most recent?

When did you first hear or read the name "Martin Gilbert?"

Maybe Kubizek is one of Dr. Eckleberg’s “house Jews.”

Perhaps he was on the payroll of Rome.

You know, along with Golda Meir and Albert Einstein and Eugenio Zolli and so forth and so on...

No, he wasn’t talking to you.

So knock it off.

Interesting. I didn't even know the Pope had endorsed the gorebull warming scam. Well, it's like I said on another thread, this is why I consider myself a strong social conservative and a devout religious person, but NOT a member of the "religious right". I don't decide policy based on how my church officials feel about it. Period. It seems many anti-Catholic freepers still can't grasp that idea, and continue to believe Catholics blindly agree with whatever the Pope's opinion is. Besides the doctrine of papal infallibility is that the Pope is "infallible" when speaking on matters of faith and morals that can't be explained in temporal ways (for example, the afterlife). He's certainly NOT infallible when it comes to his opinion on current science, history, current political events, or the best sports team for that matter.

>> “While cannabalism is an important issue — and Obama supports human flesh access — the official added: “I don’t think you can let that be the one-and-only item.” “It was more than that,” Perry said, referring to McCain’s opposition to cannabalism. “It was everything, war and peace, the economy, health care — all of those things.” <<

Interesting thread with reference on how the bishops voted. The Catholic teachings on political issues, overall, tend to be socially conservative but economically liberal. My dad figures most of the bishops and Cardinal George probably skipped the presidential race on the ballot, seeing Obama as unacceptable because he supports infanticide, but not willing to vote for McCain because they weren't happy with McCain's stance on other issues like the war in Iraq and cutting down government handouts.

There was a Catholic priest elected to Congress about a generation back (maybe Fieldmarshaldj has an interesting story about that), who sadly was elected from Mass. and was a socialist loon. Incredibly, this "pro-life" priest voted in FAVOR of unrestricted abortion, arguing that abortion shouldn't be prohibited legally because it was prohibited morally. We were finally rid of him when the Pope issued a ruling barring active parish priests from simtanemously serving in high political office, so the priest resigned to comply.

>> Auxiliary Bishop Joseph Perry said he had the same kind of thought while voting for GOP presidential candidate John McCain in the general election. Well, here's at least one person who didn't vote for Obama because of the color of his skin (Perry's black). <<

Amen to that. All those folks talking about how St. Sabina's "Catholic" parish needs a leader who "understands" the black community should have THIS guy running the parish instead of the self-loathing Fr. Flakey, that wacko heretic priest who teaches his flock to hate whitey and that Obama is their savior instead of Jesus. I think Field said it best when he remarked "Chicago has a wigger priest? Now I've seen everything". If I was Cardinal I would defrock "Father" Flakey ASAP and replace him with a decent guy like Bishop Perry (are black Catholics really going to claim a black priest who grew up in poverty doesn't "understand" their community?), but alas Cardinal George is afraid to stand up to the looney Obama-loving wing of Chicago Catholics. Cardinal George has been very vocal and outspoken about pro-life issues. But I can understand why many conservative Catholics are fed up with him, especially when Chicagolady posted about George marching in the illegal alien rights rally.

(Of course as a personal aside, if any freepers have been paying attention, I'm a lifelong Chicago area Catholic who had enough with the archdiosese of Chicago. Last year I joined a new Catholic parish that is fully in communion with the Pope and located in the Chicago area, but is NOT under the jurisdiction of the archdiosese of Chicago. The priest there is very conservative and vocally against the Obama agenda. It's been a good fit for me.)

Changing the subject won’t change the subject.

Or is he someone else you'll just dismiss as a “house Jew?”

“Notable” is one word for it.

Trying to associate what those Nazis did with Catholicism is a smear. It's sad that has to be explained to you.

Is that light-hearted interlude meant to distract us from the “house Jew” epithet thrown earlier?

Thank God you're not describing the Catholic Church.

And remember — “Nobody expects the Inquisition.”

Quite the opposite: claiming (falsely) the Nazi hierarchy were "practicing Catholics" is a smear of practicing Catholics.

Hitler rejected the Catholic faith in his youth:

My own recollections can be set down in a few sentences. For the entire period that I knew Adolf Hitler, I do not think he ever attended mass.

On Sundays his mother always went to mass with little Paula. Adolf never accompanied her that far even when she begged him. Pious believer that she was, she appeared to have come to terms with the fact that her son wanted to follow another path; perhaps his father had said something to her.

The Young Hitler I Knew
by August Kubizek
page 95

So saying someone was Roman Catholic is “a smear?”

I believe you are addressing a party so ignorant of WWII history as to be unable to identify the work of Sir Martin Gilbert.

Goebbels rejected his Catholic faith, as noted by the reference in my post above.

Hitler was Roman Catholic

All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:
National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:
The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:
The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:
Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight:
Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)

14th December, 1941, midday:
Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:
There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday:
It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)

Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944
[as recorded by Martin Bormann, Hitler's private secretary]

I am a BT and an Israeli.

Many Lutheran churches capitulated, too, but these were individual churches with relatively little political authority.

OTOH, Rome, as we're so often told, is its own country, and acts in unison from the top down.

In this case, the top was compromised and Rome's collaboration trickled down.

Is your outrage selective because you sense an opportunity to criticize the Roman catholic Church? Would you care to comment on the death of up to three million Irish Catholics from the effects of starvation, at at time when Ireland was exporting food to England, largely because or religious hatred of Catholics?

Yours is actually a valid question, but not in the way you thought.

From A Question of Judgment: Pius XII & the Jews

"Dr. Nahum Goldmann, president of the World Jewish Congress, wrote in his letter of condolence on Pope Pius' death: 'With special gratitude we remember all he has done for the persecuted Jews during one of the darkest periods in their entire history.' In 1945, the Congress had made a gift of $20,000 to Vatican charities in recognition of the work of the Holy See in rescuing Jews from Fascist persecution; and an interoffice memorandum, written a year earlier by a WJC official closely involved in the Congress' pleas to Pius XII for help for the Jews of Poland, reads: 'The Catholic Church in Europe has been extraordinarily helpful to us in a multitude of ways. From Hinsley in London to Pacelli in Rome, to say nothing of the anonymous priests in Holland, France, and elsewhere, they have done very notable things for us...'"

“The Papal States have always been a place of refuge for Jews fleeing pogroms in other parts of Europe”

LOL.

It’s in the past, and I hold no grudge, but don’t delude yourself. The papal states had ghettos for Jews, forced conversions of Jewish children and badges for Jews.

Again, it’s in the past. But to deny the past is to repeat it.

Have you ever studied the history of WWII?

I mean, ever?

False.

Hitler was Roman Catholic.

As a child.

The altar they built in the bunker was a Roman Catholic altar.

Absolutely false.

There are still those 860,000 Jews who were rescued from the Holocaust by the work of Ven. Pius XII—and their offspring!—who are alive today despite your efforts to deny their survival.

If only it were true; then the smears wouldn't look so pathetic.

Thankfully, the hatred is laid bare for all to see.

Goebbels was Roman Catholic, as were his wife and six children. Hitler was Roman Catholic. The altar they built in the bunker was a Roman Catholic altar.

Would you care to discuss the role of the German Protestant Church within the Nazi regime and the Nuremberg trial of Reichbishop Meuller? We could go all of the way back to Martin Luther's hatred of Jews as well. I mean glass houses and all....

Just believe.

ROTFLOLOLOL!!!

So everyone reading Pacelli's editorial would know he was talking anout the Nazis and the Jews, but the dumb old Gestapo would't be able to figure it out?

Do you ever read what you write?

If they can get away with quibbling about words then they don't have to actual confront the substance of the problem.

They asked for evidence and I provided the evidence yet none of them actually addressed the evidence.

They believe that by resorting to tangential issues they can avoid the problem.

They're in denial and try to veer off into minutia to avoid the real issue.

Mat 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
Mat 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

The star was in the East...It wasn't in the West...But yet they followed the star to Jerusalem...

Mat 2:9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.

Then, the star took them due South to Bethlehem...And it stood directly over where Jesus was...And the star was peculiar in the sense that they could lose sight of it...It certainly wasn't any star that we can look into the sky and see...

Do you really think thin gruel like this can rehabilitate your reputation from the gutter of post #100?

Are we supposed to be so dazzled by this idiotic rejoinder as to forget your dismissal of Sir Martin Gilbert as just a Jew who agrees with Rome?

Oh, I see. THOSE dead you’re concerned about. Got it.

The tarry black soul willing to toss around epithets like “house Jew” is capable of any manner of other lies.

All of which, it seems, is motivated by anti-Catholic hatred.

I gotta admit, this thread is the damnedest thing I’ve ever seen.