Free Republic

No, YellowDog. I did not support the way the whole thing went down. I have always expressed concerns about certain critical elements that went into the decision.

But I think credibility counts, so in my world, facts *do* matter and lies *should* be exposed, no matter whose side they purport to support.

I find it shameful that so many facts were treated with scorn - why feel threatened by the whole truth? Shouldn't we realize the threat of having our overall message's credibility damaged by needless lies?

Anyway, I was asked by someone in the media to do the research and report. What you see, I put up as a balance, to counter the lies that were being spread here and by gullible conservative leaders. Most didn't know they were lies. They heard Nobel Prize Nominee, and claims that they wanted to believe, and ran with it.

Many freepers wanted the information handy, and I was burned out, so I put it up for everyone's reference ...unpolished as it is...and left y'all to it.

FWIW, I think Hammesfahr's lack of credibility made the 2002 trial impossible for the Schindlers to win. Had the doctor who submitted the affidavit that provoked the Fla 2DCA to order that trial not backed out of testifying, there may have been a very good chance. IMO

I started saving stuff months ago when I saw they were removing it, or replacing it with unofficial "summaries" - so did AnnieO7... We might get it all up on my site today or tomorrow... just be a bit before I get all the links written. ; )

I'm also going to add to and organize the Hammesfahr stuff - he should have stayed under his rock. lol

Thanks for the awesome job you've done!

Actually, Frist and Delay, et al, started off this whole mess after consulting with Hammesfahr himself, quoting him in their speeches and referring to the info he was pushing. They were outraged based mostly on what he was telling them, and believing he was credible.

But, it wasn't long before they found out he was a fraud and started backpedaling on the medical aspects in a big way.

Off to the pool. : )

Yup. She had numerous bouts of pneumonia over the years because of it.

But hey... Hammesfahr also said he would be able to get her well enough to go out to eat and to the movies! And that she was doing the parallel bars! And he's a Nobel Prize nominee, who's never even been peer-reviewed or published in a real journal!!!

Amazing. All the borderline/minimally conscious/PVS patients out there, and he has yet to actually perform any of these miracles he claims he could. lol

Nor would he or the Schindlers' atty submit his ever-so popular report to the court, it was so full of BS - the BS that gets repeated here as though it were worth more than ...BS. lol

What a quack.

National Enquirer, World Nut Daily, and Newsmax... FR's new media source, huh? ; )

"After over 10 years in the medical field,
...
If she were swallowing saliva - then clearly her swallowing was not impaired."

Yes, that is what Hammesfahr tried to tell everyone, too. lol

But if you believe it, you need to spend more time learning about basic nursing and physiology. ; )

Because, if you act on it, in whatever your 10 yr capacity in "the medical field", you might easily choke someone to death, or give them aspiration pneumonia.

Here ya go. :) Terri's discharge summary:

http://home.comcast.net/~trinity_tx/terrischiavo/Humana_Discharge_Summary_050990.pdf

Forget "Facts Don't Matter". That was always only half the story, revised as it was.

Truth is, it was *lies* that didn't matter, and obviously still don't.

Not as long as they're the lies of the right "side", anyway.

Any other subject, and Hammesfahr and these lies would be rightly reviled by freepers. Such hypocrisy is disgusting to those of us who used to expect credibility to count here.

Oh well... World Nut Daily has an even more absurd article out. I came here to see if it was posted, and how y'all who remain here were doing. I'm impressed, as usual. :)

I don't mean to single you out, Oilreb. If I'd read that in isolation, it wouldn't bother me so much.

I understand if *you* didn't mean it the way it came out, but that kind of thinking is far too common, and was what I was condemning her parents for.

WRT the earlier poster, there's a big difference between asking someone to carry out your wishes, and asking them not to fight your wishes.

Now, see? It always comes out... and it is *exactly* the attitude I see here and from them that I'm talking about:

"it is not "her" right to force her family to go along w/her wishes when it is against their beliefs and feelings."


That is such absolute... nerve... it makes it hard for me to breathe.

They have no right to step in and impose their "beliefs and feelings" on others' most profound personal decisions.

I'll just quote CS Lewis, and avoid further comment.

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.
It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies.
The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
-C. S. Lewis

No, I don't. I'm on record here with doubts about his claims of what she said. (and how all this came down)

My point about the Schindlers remains, as their determination remained, whether she did wish to die, or did not.

They actually petitioned the court not to *allow her* to "put her immortal soul in danger" by making the choice. Many freepers have taken that position, too. That's what I despise.

Hang in there, girl. : )

Your class and IQ are so much higher than theirs, it's a handicap in these threads, that's all. ; )

"That's ludicrous. They're so contemptible cuz they prefer LIFE, and want to take CARE of her? Big deal. Lots of people want to talk others out of wanting to die, be it plain suicide or medical situations like this. What is so damn terrible about not liking her (alleged only) choice and wanting to keep her alive? Oh the absurdity. At least have the decency to be ambivalent about the family. Not hateful."

You are skirting the point. To be willing to force it on her against her stated will, when she was defenseless to control her own destiny, is what I said is contemptible, IMO.

If anyone forced me to live in a condition like hers, whatever the technical definition, not to mention flaunting me in the media like they did, I'd despise them forever.

LOL How ever did ya guess? ; )

Sheesh, this heat and ozone are sappin' me enough, as it is... and it isn't even summer, yet. Time to cruise on to cooler things. ; )

'Later, you. : )

"They killed her and no manner of shouting, discussing, arguing, yelling, can change that fact. Terri was alive and healthy and 13 days later she was dead. Cause of death: Michael Schiavo and the two George's, not to mention a bunch of disgusting politicians."

Yes, Saundra, we all know very well that that's how you feel. It just isn't that simplistic to all of us. Whether we agreed with the ultimate conclusion, or not, some of us actually care a lot about honesty and hate disinformation from any source.

Too many here don't give a flying fig about credibility or integrity anymore. The popular new phrase is "they killed her and that's all that matters", and that's a pretty sad position, IMO.

That all sounds so touching, doesn't it?

But, parents who make no bones about the fact that they still would have fought it, even if she had told them herself she wanted the tube pulled, deserve nothing but contempt, IMO.

Not only does it disgust me that they would impose that "life" upon her against her will, but it (along with all the other lies and liars they used to push their personal agenda) makes me doubt their honesty about what she ever told them on the subject.

Yes, really.

And if you think showing that previously explained bone scan, with words of the obnoxious, lying quack Hammesfahr (including a pretense that a heart must totally "stop" to be in cardiac arrest), means a thing, then you're too far out of your league for me to bother even playing catch with.

Enjoy yourself. lol

What on earth are you talking about? lol And you call me confused?

Geez. Even the ME yesterday tried to clarify it for you people yesterday. I could have told him it was an insurmountable task.

In the simplest terms possible:
She most definitely had cardiac arrest.
She did not have myocardial infarction (MI).

To say that, because she had no "heart attack" (MI), she did not have *cardiac arrest*, they way they do, is wrong. Period.

They are not the same things, no matter what you try to spin with your cheap, elementary definitions.

"The doc wanted to take out the electrodes when it was obviously not helping. Michael refused to let him do it. "

Please cite your source on that. Thank you. : )

Michael Schiavo wasn't "claiming" she did, hon. There was *no need* for him to.

A few people in the media, ignorant of terminology, used the term Heart Attack, and her parents' Dr hammesfahr and other of their spokesmen jumped on it - used it as a straw man - "oooh... we discovered she didn't have a Heart Attack, like we were told, now we don't know why she collapsed".

Hammesfahr and her siblings were saying that, even in March. It was so dishonest, it was the first hint to me that these people had no integrity, regardless of what we think of MS.

Cardiac arrest is written on her chart for any fool to see who cares about the facts as much as do the conspiracies.

Off to the movies.

"While the Terri nay-sayers love to state that this report shows Michael did nothing wrong, they conveniently ignored this heart-attack part which he claimed. Or was MS just assuming it was a HR?"

Just another pesky fact some of us tried to tell y'all a zillion times. lol

One more time...

She never had, was said to have had by her doctors, or needed to have, a Heart Attack (MI).

She undoubtedly had a Cardiac Arrest, as her chart states, and the MI explained today.

Her parents' people played on people's ignorance of the difference to make it look like her diagnosis was wrong.

My freeper page and links give more detail, if that isn't clear enough. I'm outta here. ; )