Posted on 03/06/2024 5:46:26 PM PST by grumpa
The pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is a tenet of dispensationalism which holds that living believers will be taken to heaven to avoid a future Great Tribulation. It is noteworthy that no verse in the Bible specifically says that Christ will come to take the church off planet earth to heaven before a 7-year tribulation. Neither is there found in Scripture a distinction between Israel and the church, or a parenthesis that stops the prophecy clock prior to the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27. These are the distinctives that define dispensationalism and the pre-trib rapture.
The rapture doctrine was introduced to the world in 1830 in the British Isles. There were 4 key players that had a hand in its early development:
1. In the spring of 1830, a sickly 15-year-old Scottish girl named Margaret McDonald had a vision (“revelation”) about a rapture event. Her idea was based in part on Bible verses which in the KJV speaks of people being “taken” (Matthew 24:40-41) and “caught up” (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). We know about her vision because she wrote to several prominent clergymen about it, and it was reprinted in a couple of books a few years later. McDonald reasoned that only after a literal rapture, when some would be left on earth, would the Antichrist be revealed. It would be a secret event in that only believers would be able to see “the sign of Jesus’ appearance.” No one in the 18 centuries preceding her had ever clearly communicated this totally new doctrine of “escapism.” Scholars have even debated whether McDonald’s vision was strictly a pre-tribulation rapture, as some see elements of historicism and post-tribulation in it.
2. One of those clergymen who received McDonald’s letter was Edward Irving. As early as June 2, 1830, Irving confessed in a private letter that the “substance of . . . Margaret McDonald’s visions or revelations . . . carry to me a spiritual conviction and a spiritual reproof which I cannot express.” Interestingly, Irving was also from Scotland and drew large crowds, so McDonald may have been influenced by him (as well as the reverse).
3. In September 1830 a writer going by the pen name of “Fidus” expressed this novel idea in a prophecy journal which Irving published called “The Morning Watch.” Dave MacPherson, who studied pre-trib history for many years, stated in his 1994/2000 book titled “The Rapture Plot,” that this article is “the earliest moment I’ve found anyone publicly teaching the pretrib rapturescape.” Irving (and “Fidus”) seem to have been the first also to see the seven churches of Revelation as symbolic representations of seven successive stages of the church―a key element of dispensationalism. The identity of “Fidus” is unknown, but if it was not Irving himself, it seems likely that it was one of his associates.
4. John Nelson Darby, Anglo-Irish founder of the Plymouth Brethren church, became aware of the above. He attended at least one of the Albury prophecy conferences, of which Irving was a part. Darby became a champion of the rapture and promoted it extensively, becoming “The Father of Dispensationalism.” It’s uncertain when Darby put together all of the many aspects of dispensationalism. But MacPherson argues that Darby did not fully embrace the pre-trib rapture until about 1839. Thomas Ice wrote that, "Darby is the father of dispensationalism.”
The 1830 beginning for pre-tribulationism is an embarrassment to dispensationalists. So, they have desperately tried to find pre-tribulationism earlier in history. Here are some earlier figures that have been cited incorrectly as holding to a pre-trib rapture:
1. “Pseudo-Ephraem”―called “pseudo” because this was not the real Ephraim the Syrian. No one really knows who this person was, when his tract was written, or which version of the work to rely on. While some find pre-trib in this writing, MacPherson argued that this person was not a pre-tribulationist, but rather saw Christ’s Second Coming only at the end of history. This view is what we would call today amillennialism or postmillennialism. Bob Gundry, on the other hand, in his book “First the Antichrist” argues that Pseudo-Ephraem was a post-tribulationist.
2. Morgan Edwards (1722-1792). MacPherson said that he was a “historicist post-tribulationist” and not a pre-tribulationist.
3. Manuel Lacunza (1731-1801). Lacunza was a Jesuit priest from Chile. Irving translated Lacunza’s book, “The Coming of Messiah,” into English. MacPherson said that Lacunza was a post-tribulationist, not a pre-tribulationist. However, it is true that Lacunza in his book promoted elements of dispensationalism, saying, “The restoration of the Jewish nation, to be again be the Church of God. . . .” Lacunza used the word “dispensation” numerous times in his book. Influenced by Lacunza, Irving taught dispensationalism at the Albury conferences―thus the origin of dispensationalism.
——>Scripture is the origin.
No, Satan, through the Antichrist power, is the origin.
Biden scares me.
The Middle East is coming apart.
We will now fight proxy wars with Russia, screwing each other at every opportunity.
China is totally ignored and continues to grow in military and economic power, as well as political influence.
Our economy is NOT doing well, despite all the BS government charts and favorable coverage by a pro Democrat MSM.
It is highly questionable if our elections are real, and we now have political prisoners. No $hit, the US has political prisoners as in some tin pot Caribbean regime.
We have a Southern border that is unhinged and an illegal crisis (which is taxing our social services).
Our national debt is crazy, inflation is high, the real middle class is shrinking.
Crime is in the rise, drug deaths are at record levels... https://nida.nih.gov/sites/default/files/images/2023-Drug-od-death-rates-1.jpeg
But our MSM pretends as if all is fine!
We are not in a good place right now.
We are not in a good place right now.
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i hear ya !
we are to comfort one another with the hope that is in us.
luke 21:28
our salvation draws near.
our redemption draws near
AMEN!
Our pastor did a sermon series awhile ago about the “End Times” and he explained the various ideas on it. Among the four pastors at the church they had four different ideas!
He said it was important for a person to learn about them and develop their ideas through reading scripture and prayer. And to be able to discuss with other Christians their views which would also help clarify them, change them, or whatever. But all part of growing one’s faith.
I had a pastor from another church discuss how he did not believe in the “Rapture” prior to the trials and tribulations.
He used that verse from Matthew 24, about the two people in the field, but pointed out the preceding verses:
36-41: But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
He asked me: “So - who was ‘taken’ during the flood? And who remained?”
wikpedia now ?
my arguments still completely refute your position and assertions and you ignore it as if you belong to the Rrr-Democracy Pirate Party ignores the repeated admonition that we are a republic.
you act like the jews in acts 7 that gnashed their teeth at steven before the murdered him.
..stiff necked and unrepentant and unteachable...
talk about the spirit of anti Christ ..
.thats the spirit of anti Christ.
The Five Biggest Errors of Dispensationalism
1. CHURCH AGE. Dispensationalists would have us believe that the church age is but a parenthesis in history. In other words, the church age constituted an “interruption” in the fulfilment of the kingdom promises to Israel. But, Christ was not a sidelight. That idea is an abomination and an affront to our Lord Jesus Christ. The kingdom of Christ―the New Covenant/Christian Age―is in effect now (Matthew 16:19; Colossians 1:13) and has NO END. There are dozens of passages which prove that, including: 2 Samuel 7:13; Isaiah 9:7; Ezekiel 37:26; Daniel 2:44; 4:3, 34; 7:14, 27; Luke 1:31-33; Hebrews 5:6; 2 Peter 1:11; Revelation 1:6; 5:13; 11:15. Furthermore, the New Covenant and the gospel are eternal (Hebrews 12:28; 13:20; Revelation 14:6) and has universal application (John 3:16; Romans 1:16; Galatians 3:28; Ephesians 1:21; Titus 2:11; 1 John 4:14; Revelation 5:9; 7:9).
2. DUAL COVENANT THEOLOGY. Dispensationalists think that Israel is distinct from the church―that Israel will re-emerge as pre-eminent among nations. They will again be God’s people in a unique sense. But, this conception was obliterated with the teachings of Paul that all distinctions between Jew and Gentile have been broken down by the gospel (Galatians 3:28). The New Testament declares that all of God’s covenant promises were fulfilled in Jesus (Luke 1:54-55, 69-75; 2 Corinthians 1:20), the ultimate offspring of Abraham (Matthew 1:1; Galatians 3:16). The promises to Israel were contingent on obedience (Deuteronomy 28), but she failed the test (Matthew 23:29-24:3) and had a finite end (Mathew 21:18-19; Romans 11:11-24; Hebrews 8:13; 10:8-10; etc.). The kingdom was taken from the Jews and given to another group, namely the church (Matthew 21:33-45)―melding a remnant of faithful Jews with believers in Christ (Romans 11:1-24; Galatians 3:28). The new Israel of God is no longer fleshly, natural Israel, but rather are those who have faith in Jesus Christ (John 1:12-13; 8:31-47; Romans 2:28-29; 9:6-8; Galatians 3:6-9, 25-29; 6:14-16; 1 Peter 2:4-10; etc.). The modern state of Israel has nothing to do with biblical Israel.
3. MISUNDERSTANDING THE LAST DAYS/END TIMES. There are 19 specific mentions of the last days or end times in the New Testament. Without exception, the writers of the New Testament declared that THEY were living in the last days (Acts 2:14-21; 1 Corinthians 7:19-21; 10:11; Hebrews 1:1-2; 9:26; 1 Peter 1:20; 4:7; 1 John 2:18; etc.) Thus, the last days/end times marked the end of the old covenant order, not the end of time or the end of the Christian Age.
4. INSISTENCE ON ALWAYS READING THE BIBLE LITERALLY. Just some questions: Should we literally hate our mother and father so that we can be Jesus’ disciple (Luke 14:26)? If your eye causes you to sin, should you literally pluck it out (Mark 9:47)? Is it necessary to literally eat Christ’s body in order to have life (John 6:53)? Did the mountains and the hills really break into song and the trees clap their hands (Isaiah 55:12)? When God judged Babylon according to Isaiah’s prophecy, an event fulfilled in actual history in 539 BC, did the stars and sun literally stop giving their light (Isaiah 13:10) and the heavens literally tremble (Isaiah 13:13)? When God judged Edom did the sky literally roll up like a scroll (Isaiah 34:4)? Why do you insist on a literal earthly kingdom when Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36)? Is the New Jerusalem literally a future city 1400 miles square that will hover over the Middle East like a space ship? Geeze. Especially this literal millennial stuff, if it wasn’t being taught in Christian churches, it would be considered science fiction!
5. FUTURIZING DANIEL’S 70 WEEKS. Here are things that cannot be found in the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24-27: the Antichrist, a covenant being made with the Jews by Antichrist (then broken), a gap of 2,000 years between the 69th and 70th weeks, a post AD 70 rebuilt temple. If these things are not found in Daniel 9, dispensationalism crumbles. Daniel 9:27 is clear that the prophecy ended with the “end to sacrifice and offering” and the Abomination of Desolation (which Jesus told his first-century followers they would witness per Matthew 24:15). These things happened in real time in AD 70 when the temple was destroyed (Matthew 24:2, 34).
For more dispensationalism, go here:
https://prophecyquestions.com/category/dispensationalism
I can’t fathom why anyone would believe in the “pretrib rapture”. Paul clearly states: the last trump shall sound...
HOW TO PREPARE FOR THE GREAT TRIBULATION AND RAPTURE
As soon as you perceive that the time for the tribulation and rapture may be near, please do the following in context with Matthew 24 (since we must maintain our scriptural foundation):
1. Locate the nearest mountain. (If you are in Kansas, sorry, but you are in serious trouble.) — “Let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.”
2. Make sure you have a full tank of gas so you can leave your city of residence — “Let those in the city get out.”
3. If you are temporarily out of town, think twice about returning home — “Let those in the country not enter the city.”
4. Make sure you live upstairs — “Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house.”
5. Don’t get pregnant — “How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!”
6. Pray it happens in the summer — “Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.”
7. Make sure you are a farmer that has his cloak — “Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.”
8. Don’t attend a marriage ceremony — “And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage. . . .”
9. But most importantly, take your time machine back in history 2,000 years because Jesus said all prophecy would be fulfilled in his generation (Luke 21:22) and that it would happen while some of his contemporaries were still alive: “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.” (Matthew 24:34; see also Matthew 10:23; 16:27-28; 26:64; Revelation 1:1-3; 22:6-20)
10. To better understand what the rapture really is, see my article:
https://prophecyquestions.com/what-is-the-rapture/
Neither is there found in Scripture a distinction between Israel and the church,
really?
explain this distinction then
Daniel 7:21 vs Matthew 16:18
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Daniel 7:21
“I was watching;and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them
Matthew 16:18
] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
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you still have not adressed your error...
why ?
cuz you are unteachable and stiff necked and unrepentant and dishonest intent on false teachings.
are you aware of the warning
Jas 3:1 - My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.
.?
I’m not a Protestant. I believe in the Rapture because it says so in the Bible.
We have their writings from the earliest years of the Church and nobody ever taught this novel doctrine until the 1820's. That's history, dude. You need to deal with that.
Irenaeus (around 200 AD) wrote about the Church being ‘suddenly caught up’ and then “tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be” following that. This is in his Against Heresies.
Irenaeus also wrote of the three core tenants of dispensationalism.
Ephraim the Syrian and Eusebius (approx. 330 to 370 AD) also wrote about a pretribulation rapture.
But a correct view determines how you live
You need to provide the text of these, since without seeing the exact quote in context is useless.
Christians from the beginning believed that those that are living at the time of the Second Coming will be taken up to heaven at that time (1 Thess 4:17), but until the 1820's, NO Christian believed in the novel and cobbled-together End Times schema of modern rapture-at-any-moment Dispensationalism.
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you have some writings,,, big deal,, doesnt mean anything other than some dude wrote something ,,
someone wrote the gnostic gospels also, doesnt make what they wrote true either
you were not around for centuries to know what was taught or not
to claim otherwise is blatant bull crap and blowing smoke up peoples butts
you can not reconcile the two verses either or you would have
strange you won't touch that with a 10 foot pole,
well not really, you just ignore it
like the Rrr-Democracy pushers ignore we are a republic
plain reading of the text is what teaches about the rapture and pre milleniumism from the day after the verses were wrote
you need to just deal with that
and to claim it wasnt taught until 18whatever is just flat out assumption as you have not been alive for the last 2000 years to know one way or the other
you are not “ history” anymore than fraudci is “science”
maybe you are the one that needs to deal with reality and not peddle your biased made up crap.
i swear i have never dealt with such stiff necks in my life. or such pompous dishonesty and blindness to rationality and logic. like youve been alive 2000 years to know what has been taught or not taught i mean wow,,, just wow. what a con job you guys push
Neither is there found in Scripture a distinction between Israel and the church,
really?
explain this distinction then
Daniel 7:21 vs Matthew 16:18
\/
Daniel 7:21
“I was watching;and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them
Matthew 16:18
] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
\/
you still have not adressed your error...
why ?
\%
come on , confess
this is whats stuck in your craw and got you all lathered up isnt it ?
you bunch are just flat out unteachable.
you bunch just flat out cant admit error
you put “ writings” above scripture ta boot.
you do what in fancy seminary terms is called..
” violence to the text”
sad.
No I don’t. You can look them up like I did and read the translated texts. FR is no place to post entire books.
But to get you started try a book. “Recent Pre-Trib Findings in the Early Church Fathers” by Lee Brainard.
The fact that the Catholic Church hunted down those who did not adhere to their doctrine, and kill and burn at the stake, might account for some of the lack of writings in the middle ages.
Dolcino wrote about the rapture in the 14th century.
You’re responding to the wrong person. Try to keep up.
LOL. Yes you do. you cited them, you provide them.
But to get you started try a book. “Recent Pre-Trib Findings in the Early Church Fathers” by Lee Brainard.
If it's uninformed as you are, I'm not interested.
The fact that the Catholic Church hunted down those who did not adhere to their doctrine, and kill and burn at the stake, might account for some of the lack of writings in the middle ages.
Oh, brother. The old Landmark Baptist nonsense. "The Catholic Church burned all the real Christians and their writings-- so if they were were all killed and their writings burned, how do we know about them? Ludicrous.
Dolcino wrote about the rapture in the 14th century.
Sure, if you say so
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