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To: Claud

There is difference between prayers about, and concerning 'departed saints', and prayer directed TO departed saints, Mary included.

The latter (specific type of prayer) was what was generally missing prior to the 4th and 5th centuries, with it present first among Gnostics prior to then, and then somewhat famously among the Collyridrians who set out little cakes for Mary, "Queen of Heaven", and for doing so were judged to be heretical by Epiphanius of Salamis.

No, it was more like a subtle shift from veneration, to adoration, to prayer addressed directly towards "Mary" requesting her own personal intercessions.

Epiphanius did;

St. Ambrose;

At about the time of both those men was were things took off as for what can be rightfully referred to as 'cult of Mary'. St. Epiphanius, himself a devotee of Mary, serves as something of a way-point, a marker of sorts for what was more widely accepted among the learned, and what during his own era was considered to be going too far with it.

Prior to his own era, although there is trace enough for Mary being venerated, including being prayed about in gratitude and thankfulness to God for such as her and many others too, in addition to thankfulness to the Father for Jesus -- prayers directed to anyone but the One Eternal God is not among tradition as handed down by the chosen apostles. That is what I'm saying. Not something else, not some silly set-up as you've proposed.

29 posted on 10/15/2017 4:08:11 AM PDT by BlueDragon (..and that's the thing do you recognize the bells of truth when you hear them ring)
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To: BlueDragon

Ah! A “subtle” shift! So subtle that the entire Christian world over 3 continents never even noticed it was even happening? Perhaps you are confusing “subtle” with “nonexistent”.

Collyridianism is heretical. That was no shift. Read the text of the Mass, and find me one place where the priest says anything like “I offer this oblation unto you, O Mary”...etc.

http://latinmass.com/1962ordinaryofthemass.html

Because that’s what the Collyridians were doing.

And your contention that prayer is only offered to God is flat out wrong.

If you’ve read older works I’m sure you’ve seen all over the place constructions like “I pray thee” or “I pray you” ...spoken to another living human being. Prayer is just asking. That’s all it is.

http://www.etymonline.com/word/Pray

What you cannot do is *sacrifice* to anyone but God. The emperors didn’t want the martyrs pray to false gods but wanted them to offer a pinch of incense. That’s what the Collyridians were doing with Our Lady, and Epiphanius rightly condemns it as vile heresy. Does he ever condemn praying to Our Lady though? Asking for her intercession?

See some folks forgot what their own language meant. We didn’t.


30 posted on 10/15/2017 5:10:39 AM PDT by Claud
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