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To: BlueDragon

Ah! A “subtle” shift! So subtle that the entire Christian world over 3 continents never even noticed it was even happening? Perhaps you are confusing “subtle” with “nonexistent”.

Collyridianism is heretical. That was no shift. Read the text of the Mass, and find me one place where the priest says anything like “I offer this oblation unto you, O Mary”...etc.

http://latinmass.com/1962ordinaryofthemass.html

Because that’s what the Collyridians were doing.

And your contention that prayer is only offered to God is flat out wrong.

If you’ve read older works I’m sure you’ve seen all over the place constructions like “I pray thee” or “I pray you” ...spoken to another living human being. Prayer is just asking. That’s all it is.

http://www.etymonline.com/word/Pray

What you cannot do is *sacrifice* to anyone but God. The emperors didn’t want the martyrs pray to false gods but wanted them to offer a pinch of incense. That’s what the Collyridians were doing with Our Lady, and Epiphanius rightly condemns it as vile heresy. Does he ever condemn praying to Our Lady though? Asking for her intercession?

See some folks forgot what their own language meant. We didn’t.


30 posted on 10/15/2017 5:10:39 AM PDT by Claud
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To: Claud

From prayers that included thanksgiving for the departed from among the early Church, to addressing those departed saints directly, there was a "subtle shift". If that were not so, then there would not be the very absence of such specific aspects included that I'm talking about.

That shift (or could it be said --addition) has long been recognized by many, and excused, justifying the development by appealing to 'the consciousness of the Church' and the like, putting it as being part of an expanding revelation.

In one sense that sort of thing could be compared to Gnosticism (secret knowledge) gone mainstream...

Which "Mass"? The Latin Mass, alone? Why even restrict search to "text of the Mass"? That's a rather artificial restriction. The little cakes set out for "Mary" and the hailing her as "Queen of Heaven" wasn't restricted to being within recitations of Liturgy, yet was deemed heretical.

You say it was due to a sacrifice being offered...and so was deemed heretical for that reason?

What of sacrifice of praise? The most ancient Church gave thanks and praise to God for having provided those whom were regarded as "departed saints", even imploring God to not forget them. Yet did so (in earliest times) without including recommendations that such persons should be prayer to directly for their own personal intercessions.

Just where is the oldest prayer specifically addressed TO Mary instead of being about her, or in thankfulness and acknowledgment for her, other saints found? Do you know?

If the remembering goes back to the 4th and 5th centuries, then you have something.

Where though, from prior, yet more ancient times (remember -- you did day that word "ancient", hence my objection here) such as in late 3rd to early 4th century is the memory of prayer to departed saints that includes addressing them specifically while requesting their own intercession?

Looking East there are traces of "veneration of Mary" gone to full-on prayer directed specifically towards Mary due to her own 'merits' (including among early Christian history's Gnostics), and some bare, isolated traces to the South sometime in the 3rd and early 4th centuries -- but in the Western Church, (for which records are best, it could be said?) earlier than about that time there is none that I know of that includes directly imploring those who would be mentioned during liturgical presentation, including among liturgy more generally what's recorded as being outside (and perhaps alongside) what has come down to more recent eras as formalized "Mass" in the Western Church, yet was still part of the overall records of what took place, and what was said during times of worship. Some liturgical presentations would go on for many hours...

31 posted on 10/15/2017 6:01:53 AM PDT by BlueDragon (..and that's the thing do you recognize the bells of truth when you hear them ring)
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