Posted on 09/02/2017 7:03:37 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
About half of Protestants in the U.S. now agree with the "historically Catholic belief" that both faith and good deeds are needed for salvation, rather than faith alone, a Pew Research Center survey shows.
White Evangelicals stood out as the strongest believers in faith alone, however.
Pew, which released the survey to mark the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, explored different questions, though one of the main focuses was on the requirements for salvation.
Fifty-two percent of U.S. Protestants said both good deeds and faith in God are needed to get into heaven; 46 percent said faith alone (sola fide) is needed. Among Catholics, 81 percent agreed that both good deeds and faith are necessary. Meanwhile, two-thirds of white evangelicals said they believe faith alone is needed for salvation.
(Catholics argue that "faith and works" is a misleading oversimplification of their beliefs.)
Protestants were similarly split on the Reformation principle of sola scriptura (which means that Scripture alone is authoritative for the faith and practice of the Christian), with 46 percent saying the Bible provides all the religious guidance Christians need and 52 percent saying Christians need guidance from church teachings and traditions in addition to the Bible. Among white evangelicals, nearly 60 percent agreed with the principle of sola sciptura.
Overall, only 30 percent of Protestants, 7 percent of Catholics and 44 percent of white evangelicals believe in both sola fide and sola scriptura.
The data for the poll was collected between May 30 and August 9, sampling 5,198 respondents, with the questions split in two forms. Pew noted that the margin of sampling error for both halves of respondents was plus or minus 2.9 percentage points.
Some respondents were asked to answer the question of what is needed to get into heaven in their own words. Common responses to this open-ended question included belief in Jesus and being born again (32 percent); being a good person, moral values and doing good works (19 percent of all Christians); repentance and asking forgiveness for sins (12 percent); and belief in God (11 percent).
In other findings, Christians were largely split on the topic of purgatory, which some believe to be a place where souls go to be cleansed of their sins before they can enter Heaven.
Overall, 54 percent of U.S. Christians rejected the existence of such a place, while 33 percent said that they believed in it. White evangelicals were most likely to say it is a false belief, with 72 percent rejecting it. Catholics found themselves at the opposite end of the scale, with 70 percent stating that purgatory is a real place. While a majority (65 percent) of Protestants overall said purgatory does not exist, black Protestants were split on the belief, with 47 percent saying it exists and 48 percent saying it doesn't.
Notably, a majority of U.S. adults were familiar with the Reformation as the time Protestants broke away from the Catholic Church and correctly named Martin Luther as the person who inspired it.
Protestants this year are commemorating the 500th anniversary of the Reformation when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of All Saints Church in Wittenberg, Germany on Oct. 31, 1517.
According to Ligonier Ministries, while the Reformation is largely described as a movement that revolved around sola fide and sola scriptura, "the 'protest' of Protestantism went far beyond the issue of justification by faith alone, challenging many dogmas that emerged in Rome, especially during the Middle Ages."
Pew noted, "[T]he issues at the heart of the Reformation were not merely doctrinal. Disputes also arose over religious practices, ecclesiastical structures, the sale of indulgences, the expensive construction of St. Peter's Basilica in Rome, and more. Political and other factors also played an important role."
The Reformation swept through Germany in the 16th century, spread throughout Europe and then to the new world.
"If thou wilt be perfect..."
Have you seen the Vatican?? Osteen, and I'm not defending the guy, has nothing on the Vatican.
Who told you that a wafer and wine gives eternal life?
I do recall a certain man saying that if you don’t ‘eat my flesh and drink my blood, there is no life in you. He also said some very hard to understand, nuanced words like “this is my body” does that mean it’s a wafer? Same goes for the wine.
Jesus also said to cut off your hand and pluck out your eye if it causes you to sin. Have you done that? Couldn't be plainer.
Context, my freeper friend....context is keep to understanding the Scriptures.
Jesus also said to cut off your hand and pluck out your eye if it causes you to sin. Have you done that?
Context, my freeper friend....context is keep to understanding the Scriptures.
He also told the rich ruler to sell everything he had to be saved....have you done that?
Okay, big talker, explain the context for this is my body! Obviously the one about plucking an eye out is hyperbole. Where is it on the example above? and the one about real food, real drink.
What are you basing your opinion about plucking the eye out as hyperbole?
The concept of "free will" was deemed heresy at the Council of Orange.
CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
CANON 7. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, "For apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, "Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God" (2 Cor. 3:5).
I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.[1]
II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God;[2] but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.[3]
III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:[4] so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,[5] and dead in sin,[6] is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.[7]
IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;[8] and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;[9] yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.[10]
V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.[11]
[1] MAT 17:12, [2] ECC 7:29, [3] GEN 2:16, [4] ROM 5:6, [5] ROM 3:10, [6] EPH 2:1, [7] JOH 6:44, EPH 2:2-5, 1CO 2:14, TIT 3:3-5, [8] COL 1:13, [9] PHI 2:13, [10] GAL 5:17, ROM 7:15-23, [11] EPH 4:13
If you miss this concept it baffled me for 30 years. But it is very clear and with a little bit of review and an open heart it is plainly taught in scripture. We are wicked people who are saved only by God's grace. It is no different than God appearing to Paul on the Damascus Road, God revealing Himself to Moses via a burning bush, God calling to Samuel as he was trying to get some sleep. We are all saved exactly the same way, by God grace. Christ comes up to us, tells us to get up and follow Him, and so we do it. This is NOT of yourself, it is a gift from God. (Eph 2:8-9) This is the reason we pray for the salvation of others. Please consider the most obvious verse of all verses:
Luther thought that a sinner who is forgiven is still totally corrupt, unable to get away from sinning constantly.
I'm not sure that is correct. Before Christ we are in bondage to sin. After Christ, Christians no longer practice sin, but they still sin as residue of their old nature (1 John). But despite the poorly worded title in the Westminster Confession, there is no such thing as "free will". There is God's will and there is our will. Our will strives with God's will and God works to bring it into subjection to Him (to the praise of His glory). We don't "freely" do the things of God unless God empowers us to do His will. As Augustine writes, "Command what you will, and grant what you command." As I've asked many times, "If you really, really have a "free will", then why do you sin?" I have yet to get a response to that question. Our sinfulness as Christians is a hold over of our old nature and is evidence of our willful, sinful self as we once were. May God grant us His power to be submissive to His will.
At the last supper he told his disciples that he would no more drink of this fruit of the vine till he would drink it new with them in heaven. How plain is that? Or do you think the Lord and his disciples are going to drink his blood in heaven?
In the book of Acts we see numerous cases of souls converted. Some are detailed, for example, the Samaritans, in chapter 8.
We read of them hearing the gospel from Philip.
We read of miracles from God by Philip.
We read of their having great joy.
We read of many of them being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
We read of them being given the gift of the Holy Ghost after the laying on of hands by Peter and John.
We read of Simon the sorcerer being so amazed at witnessing the people being filled with the Spirit, that he offered money for the power to give people the Holy Ghost.
Did he offer money after seeing Philip cast out unclean spirits? No.
Did he offer money after seeing Philip heal many that had palsied? No.
Did he offer money after seeing many get baptized in the name of Jesus? No, but he saw his need to be baptized as well.
But when he saw the people receive the Holy Ghost, he was amazed. Do you think he offered money for the ability to lay hands on people, tell them to repeat after him and recite the sinners pray, and say that they received the Lord as their personal savior?
In that whole story, there is no mention of the Lord’s supper.
There are accounts in Acts of the church members breaking bread together, but no mention of the wine, or other details.
Peter gives the conversion instructions in Acts 2:38. The Lord had ascended and left his disciples in charge of remitting sins. And remit sins they did, in obedience to the Lord’s commissions, found in Matt. 28:19,20; Mark 16:15-18; Luke 24:46-49; and John 20:21-23.
Ping to #89
Also, if partaking in the mass gives life, why is it repeated? Is it limited in power? Does it wear off? If so, do you know when it wears off?
The blood of Jesus Christ doesn’t wear off.
**The flood waters in this type represents condemnation, not salvation (being sealed into the arc) and not the means to salvation (faith and trust in God’s Word).**
Peter said they were saved by water. It’s what took the sinful world away from Noah and his family.
The Israelites were saved by water. The Egyptian army was the curse of death and bondage. Water took that curse away.
“And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the Lord, which he will show to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever”. Ex. 14:13
**It is not the act of baptism which saves (“the removal of dirt from the flesh”), but what baptism signifies—the appeal to God for a good conscience.**
You are rewriting 1Peter 3:21. Look:
Your words: **It is not the act of baptism which saves**
God’s words: “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us..”.
Your words: **(“the removal of dirt from the flesh”),**
God’s words: “(NOT the putting away of the filth of the flesh..”
Your words: **but what baptism signifies—the appeal to God for a good conscience.**
God’s words: “..but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)”
You see, when you are taught to believe that water baptism simply signifies something (like the unscriptural: outward sign of an inward cleaning), one has, at the least, downgraded the commands of the Lord and his apostles.
As such, one actually is trying to word Mark 16:16 this way:
“He that believe the, is saved, and should be baptized....”.
And Acts 2:38 this way:
“..Repent and receive the Holy Spirit to be saved, and be baptized....”.
If He decides to pay someone the same wage He offered you, and they only show up at the end of the day and work an hour vs. your eight, what is that to you? Are you envious because He’s generous with his money?
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Hardly, perhaps I’m the one who came late, but I will work while I am there. Nobody that shows up when the work is done gets paid.
***Believing only is a start. It’s like starting a car to go to a distant city.***
So, Jesus only gave us a start by dying for the sins of the past, it is up to us to earn the rest? and how far is enough? Not enough? too much? On the wrong road?
Even Luther told of the fear of “not doing enough” if he had to earn his salvation.
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Your reply makes no sense.
Hearing the word only does not save. It is what you do after hearing the word. Putting the keys in the car does nothing it is the driving that gets you somewhere.
I said nothing of enough, the thief on the cross confessed Christ as Lord, he in effect witnessed before the crowd and the soldiers and of course the other thief. He had heard the word some time ago but accepted it now and even though on the cross had “works”. “Faith without works is dead.”
What Jesus did had nothing to do with what we do. It is totally up to us. A gift was given to all who would accept it. there are many who are not willing to accept the gift, that has no effect on the giver, the price was paid for all whether we accept it or not.
Get over this idea that confessing that Christ is Lord saves you, it does not. You must have faith to believe. Again, faith without works is dead. Works don’t get you anything, nobody here is saying they do. Works are simply evidence of faith. Without works there is no faith. Without faith there is no belief and no saving.
**Actually he did not COMMAND anyone. He asked those who came with him... “Can anyone forbid water that these should not be baptized?”**
Oh but he did command it:
“And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord..”. Acts 10:48
**By their filling with the Holy Spirit they showed they were already saved.**
Not so fast....
**“And these signs shall follow them that believe...”**
Which follows:
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved,..”. Mark 16:16
Your interpretation would seem to reword that, to this:
“He that believeth, is saved, and should be baptized,..”.
**Then he had to give an account to James, back in Jerusalem as to why he went to gentiles.**
There is no mention of James. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t present. The word says that: “..they that were of the circumcision contended with him”. Acts 11:2
**“Who was I to withstand GOD?”**
By your interpretation, there was nothing to withstand. God had saved them; water baptism not necessary.
But Peter knew that he was commanded to remit sins. And the Lord’s commissions, and Acts 2:38, prove that.
By Paul’s own testimony about his conversion, he said that Ananias told him:
“And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” Acts 22:16
The OT examples are there to see:
The flood buried a sinful world.
The Nile river was the hiding place for baby Moses, from the curse of death.
The Red Sea buried a curse on the nation of Israel.
The sea buried Jonah in the water, removing certain death for those on that ship.
The sea (and whale) buried disobedient Jonah, then releasing him to do the will of God with amazing results.
Naaman was buried in the Jordan (7 times), and the curse of death by leprocy was removed, replaced with skin of a newborn.
The Son of God was baptized to fulfill all righteousness, and then began his astounding mission.
Luther, Calvin and the rest were only following in the footsteps of what Augustine and the Council of Orange declare-a person is elected into God’s family. Christ said, “You did not choose me but I choose you.” (John 15:16) The whole Old Testament is dedicated to “a chosen people”, a “holy nation”.
If you miss this concept it baffled me for 30 years.
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I hate to tell you that you have still missed it.
God has chosen all of us. All are offered the gift, all have the same opportunities. Only those who accept being chosen receive the gift.
If at work you are chosen to participate in a new program that offers a raise in salary but you aren’t willing to move to receive the promotion then you don’t get it. You were chosen but you don’t get the extra pay because you didn’t accept it.
The Pelagians held that human beings are born in a state of innocence, i.e., that there is no such thing as a sinful nature or original sin. As a result of this view, they held that a state of sinless perfection was achievable in this life. The Council of Orange dealt with the Semi-Pelagian doctrine that the human race, though fallen and possessed of a sinful nature, is still "good" enough to able to lay hold of the grace of God through an act of unredeemed human will.
Conclusion. And thus according to the passages of holy scripture quoted above or the interpretations of the ancient Fathers we must, under the blessing of God, preach and believe as follows.
The sin of the first man has so impaired and weakened free will that no one thereafter can either love God as he ought or believe in God or do good for God's sake, unless the grace of divine mercy has preceded him.
We therefore believe that the glorious faith which was given to Abel the righteous, and Noah, and Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and to all the saints of old, and which the Apostle Paul commends in extolling them (Heb. 11), was not given through natural goodness as it was before to Adam, but was bestowed by the grace of God. And we know and also believe that even after the coming of our Lord this grace is not to be found in the free will of all who desire to be baptized, but is bestowed by the kindness of Christ, as has already been frequently stated and as the Apostle Paul declares, "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake" (Phil. 1:29).
And again, "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and it is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). And as the Apostle says of himself, "I have obtained mercy to be faithful" (1 Cor. 7:25, cf. 1 Tim. 1:13). He did not say, "because I was faithful," but "to be faithful."
And again, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7). And again, "Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights" (Jas. 1:17). And again, "No one can receive anything except what is given him from heaven" (John 3:27). There are innumerable passages of holy scripture which can be quoted to prove the case for grace, but they have been omitted for the sake of brevity, because further examples will not really be of use where few are deemed sufficient.
According to the catholic faith we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul.
We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema.
We also believe and confess to our benefit that in every good work it is not we who take the initiative and are then assisted through the mercy of God, but God himself first inspires in us both faith in him and love for him without any previous good works of our own that deserve reward, so that we may both faithfully seek the sacrament of baptism, and after baptism be able by his help to do what is pleasing to him.
We must therefore most evidently believe that the praiseworthy faith of the thief whom the Lord called to his home in paradise, and of Cornelius the centurion, to whom the angel of the Lord was sent, and of Zacchaeus, who was worthy to receive the Lord himself, was not a natural endowment but a gift of God's kindness.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/Councils/Orange.htm
its deliberations bore on the current errors concerning the doctrine of grace and free will, i.e. Semipelagianism. Cæsarius had informed Felix IV (III) of the pernicious activity of the Semipelagians in Gaul and had applied to him for support.
The pope, in response, sent him a series of "Capitula", i.e. propositions or decrees drawn almost in their entirety from the works of St. Augustine and the "Sententiæ" of St. Prosper of Aquitaine. These "Capitula" became the basis of the twenty-five issued by the Synod of Orange, and these in turn were freely used by the Council of Trent in its condemnation of Luther. The acts of the Synod of Orange contain, after a preamble: (a) eight canons or anathematisms; (b) seventeen merely declaratory propositions (both of these classes are known as "Capitula"); (c) a sort of demonstration of the defined doctrine against the objections of the Semipelagians.
The subjects of the "Capitula" are thus logically grouped by Portalié in "Dict. Théol. Cath." (I, 2526). (1) Causes of the necessity of grace. They are: (a) original sin which cannot be wiped out without it (can. ii); (b) the weakness of the will resulting from the fall of man (i); (c) the very condition of creature (xix). (2) Operation of grace before justification. It precedes every effort conducive to salvation. From it proceed: (a) prayer (can. iii); (b) the desire of justification (iv); (c) the inception of faith (v); (d) every effort towards faith (vi); (e) every salutary act (vii); (f) every preparation to justification (viii, xii); (g) all merit (xviii).
(3) Operation of grace in initial justification or baptism. It restores (xiii), justifies (xiv), improves (xv), confers the justice of Christ (xxviii). (4) Work of grace after justification in the just. It is necessary for good actions (ix); perseverance (x); the taking of vows (xi); Christian fortitude (xvii); the life of Christ within us (xxiv); the love of God (xxv). (5) Universal necessity of grace. This need of grace to do good and avoid evil is expressed in propositions ix, xx, and the variously interpreted proposition xxii.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11266b.htm
I think you are misinterpreting the conclusion that we have no free will. Even your statement says so: "There is God's will and there is our will." Canon 7 does not state that there is no free will to choose or reject God. Yes, we must hear and accept the teachings of Jesus. Jesus sent out His Apostles to preach and baptize. Yes, this gift comes from God who wants all of us to join Him in Heaven if we accept Him.
No one has stated (to my knowledge) that God does not help us follow His will. But we can choose to accept or reject by our actions and faith. That should be common sense. Do you not believe that individuals can reject God and His teachings?
Your question? "If you really, really have a "free will", then why do you sin?" I have yet to get a response to that question.
People have choice: Love God or not Love your neighbor as yourself or not Commit murder or not Commit adultery or not Steal or not Covet or not
Our sinfulness is because we want to sin. We must take responsibility for our actions. Humans can easily rationalize their actions.
These are choices and I can see why people can choose either. People are weak and selfish and may not see the big picture (or have faith). Even those that profess faith choose sinful ways for their pleasure. Some can repent, deny themselves and with God's help become holy and ready to join Jesus in heaven.
I know many very intelligent people who do not accept God and think that they are better and more intelligent than God as atheists. I know many on this site that profess faith in God, but seem to ignore or are unwilling to understand the teachings of Jesus. Most are good people and I pray for them, yet I am very concerned that many will not meet God.
Attending Mass is honoring and praying to God and the Eucharist is a sacrament of the Catholic Church where we receive the gift of the Body and Blood of Jesus and His graces. As part of Mass we pray for the needs of human beings and the world. We listen to the word of God.
We follow the will of Jesus and do this in His memory.
As stated in a previous post we try to live according to God’s will and become holy like God is Holy and we can join Him for everlasting life.
Why do you question God?
So do your prayers wear off?
If you like, you can read the Epistles and Gospels and listen to the Mass.
http://www.ewtn.com/DAILY-READINGS/
What in the world are you talking about, with all the giving money statements? What does it have to do with anything I posted? Who are you talking about offering money to, Joel Osteen and John MacArthur and the other host of televangelists? I have nothing to do with them?
I have not the slightest idea what your point is.
He certainly didn't choose the Canaanites, the Egyptians, the Philistines. Then there is what he told the Pharisees:
Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
While your sentiment sounds good on a Hallmark card, it doesn't square with scripture. You can't come to our Lord Jesus unless the Father draws you. Obviously, not everyone is drawn by the Father.
Joh 6:44-45 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me
Act_13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
There are numerous biblical examples of God choosing people and excluding people. We are, after all, a "chosen people", a "royal priesthood". I don't make the rules.
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