Posted on 06/27/2016 7:09:10 PM PDT by ebb tide
Kleinjung: Too much beer … Holy Father, I wanted to ask you a question. Today you spoke of the gifts of the shared Churches, of the gifts shared by the Churches together. Seeing that you will go in I believe four months to Lund for the commemoration of the 500th anniversary of the reformation, I think perhaps this is also the right moment for us not only to remember the wounds on both sides but also to recognize the gifts of the reformation. Perhaps also – this is a heretical question – perhaps to annul or withdraw the excommunication of Martin Luther or of some sort of rehabilitation. Thank you.
Pope Francis: I think that the intentions of Martin Luther were not mistaken. He was a reformer. Perhaps some methods were not correct. But in that time, if we read the story of the Pastor, a German Lutheran who then converted when he saw reality – he became Catholic – in that time, the Church was not exactly a model to imitate. There was corruption in the Church, there was worldliness, attachment to money, to power…and this he protested. Then he was intelligent and took some steps forward justifying, and because he did this. And today Lutherans and Catholics, Protestants, all of us agree on the doctrine of justification. On this point, which is very important, he did not err. He made a medicine for the Church, but then this medicine consolidated into a state of things, into a state of a discipline, into a way of believing, into a way of doing, into a liturgical way and he wasn’t alone; there was Zwingli, there was Calvin, each one of them different, and behind them were who? Principals! We must put ourselves in the story of that time. It’s a story that’s not easy to understand, not easy. Then things went forward, and today the dialogue is very good. That document of justification I think is one of the richest ecumenical documents in the world, one in most agreement. But there are divisions, and these also depend on the Churches. In Buenos Aires there were two Lutheran churches, and one thought in one way and the other…even in the same Lutheran church there was no unity; but they respected each other, they loved each other, and the difference is perhaps what hurt all of us so badly and today we seek to take up the path of encountering each other after 500 years. I think that we have to pray together, pray. Prayer is important for this. Second, to work together for the poor, for the persecuted, for many people, for refugees, for the many who suffer; to work together and pray together and the theologians who study together try…but this is a long path, very long. One time jokingly I said: I know when full unity will happen. – “when?” – “the day after the Son of Man comes,” because we don’t know…the Holy Spirit will give the grace, but in the meantime, praying, loving each other and working together. Above all for the poor, for the people who suffer and for peace and many things…against the exploitation of people and many things in which they are jointly working together.
We don’t even need to get into the theology. All you need to know is that Luther says X about Justification, and the Catholic Church says Y. If you believe Luther’s position, you are Lutheran, not Catholic. This is not some arcane doctrine; it’s the central tenant of the Lutheran confession.
The Catholic teaching on Justification is HERE. A bunch of stuff Luther said is HERE.
The pope is Lutheran.
The pope cannot be Lutheran.
Red hats, now is the proper time.
Yeah...
Sure...
you have a very vivid imagination....the Catholics always have been.....it is the prots who split away imagining that they knew better (they didn't)
I hear ya!
Yup; you Catholics got it together all right!
I can virtually guarantee that there are Catholic churches in every one of those cities and ALL are older than any protestant church in the same city.
Avoid the elephant all you want; but FAULTY Catholic teachings led the missing ones into ERROR!
Or else your church is YOUNGER than you continually SPOUT.
If some local churches failed because of their leaders in the first few hundred years of the church....so be it, but that does NOTHING to repudiate the fact that the Catholic church was Christ's original church and that it has existed since His time.
Not 'local', but CATHOLIC!!
If some local churches failed because of their leaders in the first few hundred years of the church....
How did the protestant churches in those towns do???
I thought so.
Nice try at: LOOK over THERE!
But the FACTS are (if you buy Rome's line that Catholicism started at Day One) those were FAILED CATHOLIC CHURCHES.
You are STUCK with your OWN albatross around thine neck and hoisted upon thine OWN petard!
So, 2,000 years ago, in the first years of a newly founded religion (by Christ),it had some failures. I haven't looked up the places that you mentioned, but the meaning of the whole thing escapes me. The Catholic church has overcome numerous obstacles in its history and is doing just fine. It remains the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic church on Earth and as promised, will last until the end of time.....and will NEVER err in matters of faith and morals.......as promised!!!
Now admitting that Catholic Teaching wasn't PERFECT wasn't THAT hard; was it?
Of COURSE it does!
Sorry; but for all your bluster you cannot see that your OTC recorded the FACT that is HAS 'erred' in:
Mind you, I never said that individual churches, congregations etc. were immune from error, I stated that the Catholic church as an institution, is immune from error...never has happened, never will. You can blow smoke forever and you will NEVER be able to justify your denial of Christ's church....if you want to be a Protestant,so be it....have a ball, but try as you may, you will always be in error.
So; using YOUR explanation here; just how many; what percentage; of the CURRENT Catholic churches are teaching ERROR?
You give the 7 a pass; how many TODAY get one as well?
All of them....if they are individually following the professed overall teachings of the universal church, they have been promised that they cannot err im matters of faith and morals....infallibility was granted to the Pope and if he is followed faithfully, we do not err either.
By WHOM?
Hebrews 13:9 (ESV)
Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited those devoted to them.
Galatians 2:11 English Standard Version
But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
So...
...just WHEN did the supposed INFALLIBLITY kick in?
When Christ promised whatsoever you shall bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven and whatsoever you shall loose on Earth will be loosed in Heaven.......do you suppose that He would allow the church to make an error which would be bound in Heaven???????
me neither!
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