Posted on 11/02/2015 6:56:55 AM PST by Salvation
And a hearty ooh-ooh-ah-ah back to you.
Again, several times in the passage the plain text says “you are God’s building” and then “your are a temple of God”. Yes, that allegory co-exists with Paul and Apollo also being builders.
And then that building burns and the man who is the building “suffers loss” and “is saved”.
You don’t like what Paul wrote, write your own epistle.
If any man' s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward (1 Cor. 3:14)
The souls lose the impurities and so become perfect and fit for Heaven.
These people are dead so their body is separated from the soul already and awaits the general resurrection of the body.
No one said it’s physical fire. This passage is allegorical. There is suffering involved, of some kind, but the passage is all written in allegorical key.
You have an opinion about it. So do I. Neither opinion matters here: I am explaining what the passage says through the mouth of St. Paul. If you have a different opinion, tell someone who is interested. I am not.
So EVERY believer goes through Purgatory then? You just said some will not because they are perfectly cleansed and will go straight to heaven (I.e.., Saints). My point is that this passage is not talking about Purgatory but the Judgment Seat of Christ of which ALL believers will go before to receive rewards for the works they have done or the loss of reward due to the quality of their works.
Now, now, there you go digging too deep into the doctrine. It’s not capable of giving specific answers...it’s too thin.
Can’t be talking about Purgatory, can it, if some are cast out with the unbelievers? Oops!
Seems to me, you are expecting this passage to give you a complete handbook of routes to Heaven. Every believer (one built on the foundation of Christ) goes through individual judgment. If his soul is clean, nothing to burn off it and he does not “suffer loss”. If his soul is not clean, then he needs to be rid of impurities.
The passage does not concern unbelievers and generally those who cannot be purified, but we know that they are judged as well and sent to hell from, for example, Romans 2:6-8 or Matthew 25:31-46.
“You don’t like what Paul wrote, write your own epistle.”
I like what Paul wrote. I dislike your twisted version, where a builder is the building, and a man who plants is also the field being planted - a textual insanity.
The text is simple and plain, but what is the point of debating if the Catholic Catechism is valued over the words of an Apostle?
Dear brothers and sisters, when I was with you I couldn’t talk to you as I would to spiritual people. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in Christ. 2 I had to feed you with milk, not with solid food, because you weren’t ready for anything stronger. And you still aren’t ready, 3 for you are still controlled by your sinful nature. You are jealous of one another and quarrel with each other. Doesn’t that prove you are controlled by your sinful nature? Aren’t you living like people of the world? 4 When one of you says, “I am a follower of Paul,” and another says, “I follow Apollos,” aren’t you acting just like people of the world?
5 After all, who is Apollos? Who is Paul? We are only God’s servants through whom you believed the Good News. Each of us did the work the Lord gave us. 6 I planted the seed in your hearts, and Apollos watered it, but it was God who made it grow. 7 It’s not important who does the planting, or who does the watering. What’s important is that God makes the seed grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters work together with the same purpose. And both will be rewarded for their own hard work. 9 For we are both God’s workers. And you are God’s field. You are God’s building.
10 Because of God’s grace to me, I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one we already have - Jesus Christ.
12 Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials - gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. 13 But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value. 14 If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. 15 But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.
16 Don’t you realize that all of you together are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God lives in you? 17 God will destroy anyone who destroys this temple. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.
18 Stop deceiving yourselves. If you think you are wise by this world’s standards, you need to become a fool to be truly wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God...So don’t boast about following a particular human leader...
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>> If his soul is clean, nothing to burn off it and he does not “suffer loss†<<
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Gee, what happened with the thief on the cross then?
Oops a flaw in the program!
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Romans 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one
I appreciate your response, Annalex.
Try this question on, if you will: What could a person do in purgatory that would make up that person’s sin to God? How will burning them make their hearts pure? I can pretty much tell you what I say NOW when I burn my hand on the stove, so I don’t think that would work given our weak human tendencies. ;-)
Look at it this way. We don’t have anything NOW to do that other than what has been provided in Jesus on the cross.
Finally, do you think God is unreasonable? (If I believed in purgatory, I think I would run from Him and not TO Him. It would be pretty hard for me to love Him and want to serve Him knowing that He’s out to get me. No, I just couldn’t. I would find myself hoping to gain entry into Heaven strictly to avoid Hell, but hating the One I know I’d find there. I would serve out of fear rather than love, and hope to appease His wrath rather than having a loving relationship with Him. Does that make sense? Purgatory makes God out to be like the madman who tells his wife how much he loves her while he’s giving her a black eye to go with her broken nose.)
I really would like to see how this deception was cooked up.
So far so good.
But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss
Your epistle, substituting "builder for "every man" is amusing but it is not what St. Paul wrote.
In the original the building goes through flames and is purified through it. I don't dispute that the minister is judged alongside the flock, but the idea that the purification of the building has nothing to do with the man who is that building is foreign to the text.
The Good thief apparently did not go through purgatory at all. Why should he? He confessed his sin, did the good work of defending the innocent man, and died a good Catholic death.
Nothing, of course. He cannot atone his own sin; Christ does that.
“I don’t dispute that the minister is judged alongside the flock, but the idea that the purification of the building has nothing to do with the man who is that building is foreign to the text.”
That is because you are reading into the text what is not there. The building is not being purified, except in the sense of the wheat and tares:
“Then he put another parable before them. “The kingdom of Heaven,” he said, “is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his men were asleep his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the crop came up and ripened, the weeds appeared as well. Then the owner’s servants came up to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where did all these weeds come from? ‘Some blackguard has done this to spite me. he replied.
‘Do you want us then to go out and pull them all up?’ said the servants. ‘No,’ he returned, ‘if you pull up the weeds now, you would pull up the wheat with them. Let them both grow together till the harvest. And at harvest-time I shall tell the reapers, ‘Collect all the weeds first and tie them up in bundles ready to burn, but collect the wheat and store it in my barn.’”
But the point is NOT purification. The point of the word picture is that those building the Kingdom of God need to do so in the way God approves, because only then do they do something with lasting value. The point of the building picture is NOT purification, but revelation:
“But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value.” More literally, “the work shall become manifest [”readily perceived by the eye or the understanding; evident; obvious; apparent; plain”]”
Paul has been criticizing the Corinthians for forming factions and following men. He did so starting in chapter 1, and is still making his point at the end of chapter 3:
Chapter 1:
“By the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ I appeal to all of you, my friends, to agree in what you say, so that there will be no divisions among you. Be completely united, with only one thought and one purpose. 11 For some people from Chloe’s family have told me quite plainly, my friends, that there are quarrels among you. 12 Let me put it this way: each one of you says something different. One says, “I follow Paulâ€; another, “I follow Apollosâ€; another, “I follow Peterâ€; and another, “I follow Christ.†13 Christ has been divided into groups! Was it Paul who died on the cross for you? Were you baptized as Paul’s disciples?”
Chapter 3:
When there is jealousy among you and you quarrel with one another, doesn’t this prove that you belong to this world, living by its standards? 4 When one of you says, “I follow Paul,†and another, “I follow Apollosâ€â€”aren’t you acting like worldly people?
5 After all, who is Apollos? And who is Paul? We are simply God’s servants, by whom you were led to believe. Each one of us does the work which the Lord gave him to do: 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered the plant, but it was God who made the plant grow. 7 The one who plants and the one who waters really do not matter. It is God who matters...
...21 No one, then, should boast about what human beings can do. Actually everything belongs to you: 22 Paul, Apollos, and Peter; this world, life and death, the present and the future—all these are yours, 23 and you belong to Christ, and Christ belongs to God.”
And on into Chapter 4:
“None of you should be proud of one person and despise another. 7 Who made you superior to others? Didn’t God give you everything you have?”
The theme of the first 4 chapters of 1 Cor is this: Stop dividing up and following men! Follow God!”
3.10-15 is a warning to the false teachers at Corinth - not entirely false, perhaps, but not entirely true either: Minister faithfully, or else!
NONE of this involves purifying. Only Catholic theology tries to force it to mean something it plainly does not, so you defend the indefensible. But since Catholic theology slanders God and calls the Holy Spirit a liar, saying the blood of Christ “imperfectly purifies” man...well, to be a true Catholic, you must reject the plain truth taught by God:
“There is no condemnation now for those who live in union with Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit, which brings us life in union with Christ Jesus, has set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 What the Law could not do, because human nature was weak, God did...
...If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 Certainly not God, who did not even keep back his own Son, but offered him for us all! He gave us his Son—will he not also freely give us all things? 33 Who will accuse God’s chosen people? God himself declares them not guilty! 34 Who, then, will condemn them? Not Christ Jesus, who died, or rather, who was raised to life and is at the right side of God, pleading with him for us! 35 Who, then, can separate us from the love of Christ?”
In the Epistle I read, the building had stone, metal, straw and stubble before, and emerges with stone and metal after. That is a purified building.
Your epistle is different, it has a different focus, shifts the original metaphor, and makes different points. It is very amusing to read.
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