Hating Catholics–America’s ONLY Accepted Prejudice

http://shoebat.com/2014/04/12/hating-catholics-americas-accepted-prejudice/ ^ | April 12, 2014 | Walid Shoebat

[af_vet_1981]

Um, no, that is not what Paul was telling the Thessalonians. He was telling them to not be led astray by a false letter supposedly from him but not his writing.

That is false and misleading response. Try reading the passage in Second Thessalonians again. The Apostle Paul warned them for a specific reason and told them not to listen to the teaching that the "day of Christ" is at hand. The apostasy must come first and the antiChrist must be revealed first. So, no rapture for you, you will just have to persevere.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Second Thessalonians, Catholic chapter two, Protestant verses one to three,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

[MHGinTN]

Wow, that chip must be heavy on your shoulder! I said you certainly enjoyed catching my error! That's not blaming anyone but me for the error.

I refer you back to the previous post, which perhaps you didn't see, since you offered a notion refuted in the list of 15 differences in the Rapture and the Second Return to Earth's surface: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3329196/posts?page=396#396

That Jesus can come to the Earth in the Air without setting foot on the surface should not be a problem comprehending by someone who believes a priest in his religion can bring Jesus down for His real Presence to be eaten at the catholic Mass, body, blood, soul and DIVINITY, in a wafer held up by the priest.

[MHGinTN]

You asserted, "The apostasy must come first and the antiChrist must be revealed first." That is not what Paul taught to the Thessalonians, as evidenced by his referring them back to what he had taught them of the 'apostasia' then the one who is restraining being taken out of the way. The One Who is restraining is God's Holy Spirit, the very same Holy Spirit Who indwells believers, as the seal upon their human spirit. The Rapture of His Church takes the Holy Spirit accomplishing the work indwelling believers out of the way so the man of sin can be revealed in all his lawlessness. Read the passage I posted which comes as a restating of the premise of his letter sections to them regarding the lawlessness/the anti-Christ..

[MHGinTN]

2 Thess 2 “Don’t you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things? Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season. For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way. Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill...”

[af_vet_1981]

You asserted, "The apostasy must come first and the antiChrist must be revealed first." That is not what Paul taught to the Thessalonians,

It is right there in verse three, Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; .

The Apostle Paul wrote that "day of Christ" will not happen until after the apostasy and the "man of sin" is revealed.

[editor-surveyor]

.
>> “The Apostle Paul warned them for a specific reason and told them not to listen to the teaching that the “day of Christ” is at hand. The apostasy must come first and the antiChrist must be revealed first.” <<

AMEN!

Pre-Trib Dispyism is Lucifer's Gospel.

[af_vet_1981]

Wow, that chip must be heavy on your shoulder! I said you certainly enjoyed catching my error! That's not blaming anyone but me for the error.

Sure it is; pretend to take responsibility for having one's own email server and then blame Rush Limbaugh and the conservatives for one's having it.

That Jesus can come to the Earth in the Air without setting foot on the surface should not be a problem comprehending by someone who believes a priest in his religion can bring Jesus down for His real Presence to be eaten at the catholic Mass, body, blood, soul and DIVINITY, in a wafer held up by the priest.

The angels said He would come again in like manner as he ascended; he went from the ground at the Mount of Olives up into the clouds into heaven; He will descend from heaven in the clouds and his feet will touch the Mount of Olives. The "Rapture" theories and teachings were invented in the last two centuries because Sola Scriptura doesn't work and Restorationists are not satisfied with Protestantism. By appealing to the one holy catholic apostolic church you introduce the fact that the church has always taught the Second Coming of the Messiah as is written in the scriptures and as expressed in the creeds.

[Mark17]

I am looking for what God has revealed is coming very soon, the Rapture of His body of actual ‘faithers’. The Real Church, the Body of Christ, The Bride of Christ.

So am I bro. On the other hand, if it doesn't happen in our lifetime, at least we will be with Him when it DOES happens, in the twinkling of an eye.
As far as the apostasy is concerned, hasn't the world generally been in apostasy since Adam and Eve sinned? I think it has, but I think it can, and will get A LOT worse.
None of us know what percentage of the earth's population will end up in Hell, but I am inclined to think the vast, vast majority of the world will end up there. Not a good thing, but I am reminded of a verse to a hymn, "abundant life He came to truly give man, but so few His gift of grace receive."
How about that for a dose of reality?

[MHGinTN]

That old saw won't hunt either. The Rapture is not an inventiong of the past two centuries. But even if I post for you the numerous evidence that the idea has been around since the last Apostle died, you are a catholic so you cannot allow yourself to admit this reality, so you take the old dog hunting when it can't hunt:

http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/brief-history-of-rapture

There4 are many more resources with the most recent discoveries at http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/brief-history-of-rapture. With all your reading, perhaps you will avail yourself of some of the great work being done for believers, to edify us int he last days.

[Iscool]

On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

He won't be coming at the Rapture...We'll be going...That solves your dilemma...

[MHGinTN]

Medicine, Brother, medicine! And if it doesn’t happen before I sleep, because His Holy Spirit seal is upon my spirit, I will be brought with Him in the air and a new body given to be changed in that twinkle! it’s the Presence of the Holy SPirit seal which resonates to the transformation to be like Him so we can see Him as He really is! After all, to see something as it really is in six or seven dimensions, you gotta be six or seven dimensional! ... ‘Course that will mean you disappear from 4D spacetime, but it’s all good! We go up to meet Him in the air.

[MHGinTN]

Um, I don’t think that one is planning on going ... but if he does, we’ll explain it to him on the way up into the clouds!

[Iscool]

Um, I don’t think that one is planning on going ... but if he does, we’ll explain it to him on the way up into the clouds!

I agree...He might be in for the shock of his life...

[Mark17]

Sadly, a couple of family members ...

I know what you mean. I also have unsaved family members. They are welcome to whatever I leave behind at the rapture.
I saw a thread a few weeks ago, about the spiritual body we will receive, being a real super hero type body, that would make superman jealous. Of course, the reason for all the power God will give us in our spiritual body, is to give Him glory, but I think He will give us extraordinary powers, to accomplish His will.

Maranatha bro.

[Springfield Reformer]

Most of those assertions are either unsupported or else the alleged difference can be easily reconciled.

Full disclosure:  I was dispensational and as pre-trib as they come years ago, but found that I could not confirm the doctrine from Scripture, and have moved to more of a "pre-wrath" position, albeit without dogmatism regarding speculations, because I know good, well-meaning people can see these things very differently.

As for the alleged differences, some of them are imposing rigid conditions, as if Christ coming in the air, and we who believe meeting Him in the air, excludes the possibility that we will then proceed with Him to the earth, albeit perhaps going to some different location. There is no passage saying "He comes thus far, and stops in mid-air, or goes back etc."  Where is that? It is not written that way anywhere.

Other alleged differences are simply unsupported. Where is the passage that says only believers will see Christ in His first coming?  When Jesus was talking to His disciples in Matthew 24, they were believers, and He was giving them directions on what to look for, what to not pay attention to, etc.  And it is there that believers are advised to avoid falling for false Christs (of which there have already been many), precisely because Jesus wanted them to know every eye will  see Him, that His return will not be secret.  He is giving this as a precaution to believers, not unbelievers, or people converted during the tribulation.  This was doctrine for the ecclesia He was building through these disciples.

Finally, whether any prophecy must be fulfilled prior to the Second Coming versus the Rapture is a problem in circular reasoning.  If one assumes from the outset that there are two such events, then it would be easy to filter all the prophecy-connected passages as being only about the Second Coming, and all the other Parousia-related passages as being about the Rapture.  But as I said, this is circular reasoning, assuming the conclusion in the question.  If there are some passages which do not directly discuss a signaling prophecy, that does not logically mean they are not talking about the same event.  In fact, the default assumption has to be that they are talking about the same event unless the author provides an intentional and unambiguous distinction.

As for the specific question of 2 Thessalonians, there is no requirement of the text that the removal of the obstacle to the appearance of the man of sin would be a removal of the Holy Spirit from from the earth as the indweller of believers.  That is an artificial construction imposed on the text without due justification.  It is speculative who or what the obstacle is.  Remember Daniel in his prayers?  When the angel arrived 21 days later, we are told the Prince of Persia was the obstacle.  We must assume that in the case of the man of sin, the obstacle is there by divine appointment, and will be removed when God's timing is just right.  But we do not have any definite basis for speculating beyond what is written.

As for apostasia as being a catching away and not a falling away, again, there is no basis for assuming anything other than the ordinary use of apostasia as a noun to describe a revolt from the faithful teaching of the Gospel.  Apostasia was a theological term of art, as they say in the law, such that when used as a noun rather than a verb was reliably about defection from some system or standard.  The verbal form could be used to discuss physical departure, but that was a distinct condition from the use of the noun, which normally referred to a rebellious state of mind.  

For example, the same word is used here, also as a noun:

And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
(Acts 21:21)

Granted, the KJV rendered it as a verb, but in the Greek, it literally says " ... that you teach rebellion [apostasian] from Moses ..." and so is very much a noun.

So it is crystal clear in 2 Thessalonians that Paul is discussing an event he had mentioned to them previously, and that it was an apostasy as both we and they would normally use that term.  Which also makes sense in the context, as the revealing of the man of sin must logically be accompanied by such a corruption of belief and culture as to permit the rise of such a fiend.

Bottom line, one can find true and false doctrine taught at all stages of the history of Christianity.  Finding a few weak references to it here and there proves nothing. Unwarranted prophetic speculation has typically led to confusion.  This issue in my mind is rather simple.  Maybe because I'm just simple minded. :)  The thing Jesus gave as the main deliverable in response to the prophecies concerning the Second Coming/Parousia/Rapture/Etc. was to be ready.  Not to figure it out in excruciating detail.  But to be found on that day abiding in Him. That's the main thing. Trust Christ. Take a pass on the false christs. Don't beat the servants while the Master is away. Keep those lamps trimmed and full of oil.  Keep looking for that day, as children of light.  It will come, and soon enough.

Peace,

SR

[SouthernClaire]

Wow. I was blown away when the man joined with the saxophone!

Had two of my favorite voices in the world - Van Morrison and Elvis Presley - shown up and wanted to join in that worship music, I would have told them to be quiet and sit down my own self. (Aretha Franklin would’ve been a different story.)

[verga]

But as a True Christian I admitted my error, and fixed it. Still waiting on the posers.

[Elsie]

I’ll go out on a limb here and make a prediction:

Someday; I’ll be dead (If Jesus tarrys just a bit longer).
Someday; Jesus will return to Earth.
Someday; there’ll be some kind of Judgment.
Someday; we will ALL get our JUST reward.
Someday; we FR Prots and Catholics will quit fussing over stuff.

[Elsie]

So you claim to get "The Rapture" from the Catholic translation of First Corinthians, Catholic chapter four, Protestant verses thirteen to eighteen ... preposterous; here is the Douay Reims translation.

This ain't the Vulgate...

[Elsie]

I was just wondering, yesterday, about when my drivers license is up for renewal (not ‘til ‘18) and noticed the organ donor symbol on it.

I doubt they’d find much that I haven’t worn out by now, so ANY new body would have to be better than the one I’m using (abusing?) now!