Posted on 08/17/2015 6:07:35 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
It is that time of week again, where we talk about the Mary, the Mother of God. This is definitely the single most important title that Mary has. If someone gets this wrong, then they get the Divinity of our Lord wrong, and that means the whole plan of Salvation is just messed up. So let us look at this most important title.
Theotokos, God-bearer in Greek, is what the council of Ephesus declared in 431. It specifically says this “If anyone does not confess that God is truly Emmanuel, and that on this account the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (for according to the flesh she gave birth to the Word of God become flesh by birth), let him be anathema.” Now just that statement alone proves the early Church believed that there was Authority given to the bishops to decide sound doctrine, Mary was a Holy Virgin her entire life, and that She bore God. However, we only have time for one today.
Now many times we will hear non-Catholics tell us that this title is nowhere found in Scripture, explicitly at least. However, they cannot themselves find a Scripture verse that says that all doctrine and dogma must be explicitly proven in Scripture. I bet they can never find that. This is a trap they set up for themselves and it is a very unfair double standard that they expect us to meet, but they do not have to. However, on top of this double standard is if we used that same standard, then the doctrine of the Trinity is thrown out, since it’s not an explicit teaching, but instead is implicit in Scripture. This double standard seems to cause more problems that it’s worth wouldn’t you say?
Here is the cold hard truth of it though, all Christians rely on some Church Tradition, as well as Scripture, to validate their doctrines, whether they admit it or not. With that being said, Scripture and Tradition can never contradict one another. The Traditions of men can contradict the Word of God, but the Traditions God left us, through Christ, in the Holy Spirit, are binding upon us, as we are to hold fast to Traditions. So then, what is the real question? The real question is, Does Scripture contradict the teaching that Mary is the Mother of God, and is that doctrine found in Scripture at least implicitly?
Let us begin with Luke 1:43, where Mary visited Elizabeth. There Elizabeth exclaimed “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Because Mary was the Mother of the Lord, who is the Second part of the Holy Trinity, Mary is truly and rightfully called the Mother of God.
We also see in Isaiah 7:14 “Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which is interpreted God with us.” Jesus is God. He was God when He was in the womb, conceived, lived, died, buried, resurrected, in the Eucharist, and in Heaven. The Messiah, who is God, was to be born of a virgin, according to Scripture. God was born of a virgin, and it’s right there in Isaiah, who prophesied of Christ birth. That means both Old and New Testament support the Catholic Doctrine of the Mother of God.
However, this may not be enough for some non-Catholics. Some say that Elisabeth called Christ Lord, and not God, saying that Mary was only to give birth to the human child, the Lord Jesus Christ. So then the question becomes, does lord here mean divinity or just authority? Let’s look at the context.
First let us look at 1 Cor. 8:5, which states “Indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” St. Paul makes it clear that Jesus is the one True, Lord, as opposed to all the false ones, that the pagans who converted in Corinth were probably worshiping. So then, they would understand that Jesus is God. This holds true to the Jews who converted too, who would know Deut. 6:4 “Hear, therefore, o Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.”
So then that brings us back to Luke 1:43. Elizabeth calls Mary the mother of her Lord. The Mother…Mothers give birth to persons, not natures, let us remember that. Mary did not just give birth to the human nature of Christ, she gave birth to the person of Christ. Christ personhood is Divine, it is God the Son.
Then let us look at 2 Sam. 6:9 where the King, who was David says “How can the ark of the Lord come to me (being the ark of the covenant)” Then in 2 Samuel 616 we see King David leaping in the presence of the Ark, just as John the Baptist did. Then we yet again see another parallel, which says that the ark of the Lord abode in the house of Obededom the Gethite for three months (2 Sam. 6:11), and according to Luke 1:56 Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth about three months. Then, we see that the ark of the covenant carried three items, manna, the Ten Commandments, and Aaron’s rod. These are all types of things Christ are, the Bread of Life, Word made Flesh, and our true High Priest.
Even knowing all this though, there are still those who would deny that Mary is the Mother of God. So then we have to ask, who is Jesus Christ to them? If Mary is not the Mother of God, then who did she give birth to? Many would say it was an earthly human lord, not God. So then, what does that make Christ? If Mary did not give birth to God, then who did she give birth to? Was not Christ God when He was conceived?
If someone says Mary only gave birth to the person of Christ one of two errors, or both could happen, and that is the Denial of the divinity of Christ, and that one would have to say Christ is two distinct persons, and that he is not One. Both were considered heresy in the Early Church. Christ is one Person, with two natures, Divine and Human, which go together and are not separate of one another. If one denies that, the ultimately they are speaking about a different Christ, and St. Paul warns us about that problem, and to not to give heed to them (2 Cor. 11:4).
So then, some say that Mary is the mother of the Trinity if we take it that far, however, this is not true. Mary gave birth to the 2nd part of the Trinity, the 2nd Person, who is still God just not the Trinity. However, we must never forget that each Person in the Trinity shares the same Divine Nature and is fully God.
One thing some still point out is that Christ is eternal, so for Mary to be the Mother of God she would have to be God. However the Church does not say Mary is the source of the Divine Nature of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. To better understand this let’s look at humanity. Parents give birth to a person, however they are not the author of life, and certainly did not give the child it’s soul. Thus is true with Mary, she did not give Christ His Divine Nature, though she was the Mother of more than just the human form of Christ, because she gave birth to a person, who was God.
Thanks for proving my point. You’ll probably do it again too.
When I pray the rosary later - I won’t be posting online at that time because I’ll actually be doing what I said I would be doing - I’ll pray for you.
Praying to Mary who cannot hear you and cannot answer your prayer. Good luck with that.
So now Protestants are right? Love the selectivity.
I know what an abbreviation is. I’m asking what these books are and why I should care. Tell me. Tell me how you know.
For the last time....I’ve answered your questions. You’ve yet to answer mine.
You’ve answered nothing. You’ve got nothing. Zip.
Can you even tell me why you’re a Christian? Because you read it in a book?
“When I pray the rosary later - I won’t be posting online at that time because I’ll actually be doing what I said I would be doing - I’ll pray for you.”
First, thank you for praying.
Second, I will fulfill the Biblical command about prayer:
“pray without ceasing;”
Best
I Thessalonians 5:17
Was there ever any doubt about this? Completely out of whole cloth.
A good response to what might be the silliest argument I have ever seen raised on FR.
You missed where he explained that the bible is and can be the sole source of Christian truth. You might want to ask about this.
From your attitude, you shouldn't care. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. Just carry on doing what you are doing.
Your argument has a salvation component to it. All knowledge for salvation is in John’s Gospel. It says it is so. So if you put forth another salvation requirement, Marian doctrines, you operate outside of scripture and preach a different gospel than the Bible does. Even angels doing so are accursed. Gal 1:8. So that goes for non-angels as well.
You claimed, "You clearly can’t make an actual argument about the issue. And that’s not a claim either."
Whether I can or can't "make an argument" doesn't alter your history of making claims.
claimAlso, I don't need to prove that Mary was a sinner. YOU need to prove that she wasn't and that "All have sinned..." doesn't include her. The same is true for all of your claims.noun
: a statement saying that something happened a certain way or will happen a certain way : a statement saying that something is true when some people may say it is not true
: an official request for something (such as money) that is owed to you or that you believe is owed to you
: a right to have something
Full Definition of CLAIM
1 : a demand for something due or believed to be due claim>
2 a : a right to something; specifically : a title to a debt, privilege, or other thing in the possession of another
b : an assertion open to challenge claim of authenticity>3 : something that is claimed; especially : a tract of land staked out
"Prove it." So far, you haven't. You'll need to make a better case.
I am weary of your pattern of failure.
“Praying to Mary who cannot hear you and cannot answer your prayer. Good luck with that.”
Not good luck, simply grace. Mary, through Jesus’ grace and generosity, can do anything that is in accordance with His plans. It’s a shame your view of God is so small. Maybe you should read this: http://www.amazon.com/Your-God-Is-Too-Small/dp/0684846969 And then this: http://www.amazon.com/Protestant-Pastor-Looks-Mary/dp/0879737271/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1439934258&sr=1-1&keywords=protestant+pastor+looks+at+mary It’s better than being ignorant.
Can you tell what you believe?
Try me. Tell me why I should care. Got an answer better than “Well, because, duh”?
Of which we have zero proof in the Word. You might read against the injunctions about praying to idols. It’s in the New Testamemt. It’s better than being an idolaters.
Where does that leave the Christians who were always “outside of Scripture”?
How do you know Scripture is important?
It is the Word of God. If you don't care what God thinks or says, then I guess you shouldn't worry about it.
For doing what? For departing from Scripture? I don't think so.
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