What is the source of the Church’s authority?

http://catholicsay.com ^ | June 2, 2015

[NKP_Vet]

The source & nature of Church authority is one of the major issues that beginning Catholics have to examine and come to terms with.

The Catholic Church makes an amazing claim: it teaches, governs, and sanctifies with the authority of Christ himself.

Catholics believe that this gift of Church authority is one of the jewels that Christ has given to us as an aid to our salvation.

Keep three things in mind:

There is a large amount of evidence in Scripture to support the Catholic Church’s claim to authority, as well as from early Church history. The nature and scope of Church authority are widely misunderstood. Rejection of this claim is usually based on the common misconception of “misplaced worship” — the accusation that Catholics worship the something else (the Church, the Pope, Mary, the Saints, etc.) instead of God. After briefly stating the Church’s teaching on this subject, we’ll look at some of the major Scriptural sources for this doctrine. Catholic Church authority in brief

Christ himself is the source of the Church’s authority.

The New Testament shows that Christ deliberately created his Church to be the vehicle of his continuing mission in the world. He promised to remain present in his Church for all time, and he lovingly guides it through the presence of the Holy Spirit.

To ensure the success of this mission, Christ gave his Church the ability to teach, govern and sanctify with Christ’s own authority. The Apostles appointed successors to ensure that the Gospel would continue to be handed on faithfully as “the lasting source of all life for the Church” (Vatican II, “Lumen Gentium” 20; also Catechism #860).

The source and guarantee of this Church authority is Christ’s continuing presence in his Church — “Lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age” (Mt 28:20).

The purpose of this authority is to give the Church the ability to teach without error about the essentials of salvation: “On this rock, I will build My Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it” (Mt 16:18).

The scope of this authority concerns the official teachings of the Church on matters of faith, morals, and worship (liturgy & sacraments). We believe that, because of Christ’s continued presence and guarantee, his Church cannot lead people astray with its official teachings (which are distinct from the individual failings and opinions of its members, priests, bishops, and Popes).

Church authority in Scripture

The New Testament bears witness in numerous places to the fact of Church authority. It clearly shows that Christ gave his Apostles his own authority to continue his mission.

(Remember that Catholics view the Bible as one of two definitive witnesses to divine Revelation. Christ taught many other things to the Apostles that are not recorded in Scripture; we call this Catholic Tradition, literally meaning “that which is handed on”. Tradition is the full, living faith of the Apostles as received from Christ.)

Here are some of the more important Scriptural references that address Church authority.

And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” (Mt 28:18-20)

This brief passage contains several critical points about Church authority: Jesus tells the Apostles that the authority he is giving them derives from his own, divine authority. (“All authority…” / “Go therefore”.) The Apostles’ authority and mission comes directly from Christ himself. The nature of this mission is to lead or govern (“make disciples”), sanctify (“baptizing them”), and teach (“teaching them to observe”). Christ promises to remain present with them always in support of this mission (“I am with you always”). Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, even so I send you.” (Jn 20:21)

In this passage, Jesus commissions the Apostles with continuing his own mission. Again, this mission has its source in the divine authority of the Father. (CCC 859) “He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.” (Mt 10:40) And: “He who hears you hears Me, and he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” (Lk 10:16)

Here, Christ explicitly identifies himself with the Apostles: this identification is so complete that accepting or rejecting the Apostles is the same as accepting or rejecting Christ. What’s more, both passages compare the union between Christ and his Apostles to that of the Son and the Father within the Holy Trinity.

“And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock, I will build My Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.” (Mt 16:18-19)

This is a key passage for understanding the Catholic doctrine of Church authority: Christ’s deliberate intent to establish a new Church (“I will build My Church”) His choice of Peter as the foundation, or head, of this Church Christ confers on Peter his own divine authority (“the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven”) for ruling the Church (“bind” and “loose”). This power to “bind and loose”, repeated also in Mt 18:18 to the Apostles as a whole, is understood as applying first to Peter and his successors (the Pope), and then to the rest of the Apostles and their successors (the other Bishops) in union with Peter. The Acts of the Apostles (a New Testament book) provides abundant evidence of how Church authority was practiced during the Apostolic age (during the lives of the Apostles themselves, after the Resurrection and Ascension of Christ).

In Acts, we see repeated examples of the Apostles teaching, governing, and sanctifying (baptizing and confirming, as well as “breaking the bread”).

One of the most striking passages in Acts tells how the Apostles describe their decision about whether pagan converts should submit to the Jewish laws of circumcision. They say, “For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us” that those laws of the Old Covenant should not apply (Acts 15:28). This passage shows:

The Apostles knew that they had the governing power necessary to decide this question (this is a huge point: they’re overriding the ritual law of the Old Covenant!); and They are conscious of the presence of the Holy Spirit who is guiding their decision, so ultimately it is God who has decided the matter. This passage in Acts would be meaningless, even blasphemous, if the Apostles did not in fact possess the authority of Christ, supported and guided by the presence of the Holy Spirit.

Finally, the various Epistles in the New Testament (the letters of Paul, Peter, etc.) likewise give many examples of the Apostles exercising their teaching and governing offices. In fact, those letters only exist because the Apostles knew that it was their role to teach and lead the various local churches!

The nature & scope of Church authority

It is important to repeat that this authority exists so that Christ can continue to guide his Church in the continuing work of salvation. Church authority is entirely at the service of that work.

We believe that Christ desired the Church to have this authority so that we could be sure of essential matters of the Faith.

The scope of this authority is limited to things that are essential to our salvation: faith, morals, and worship (the sacraments and liturgy). Additionally, since the Church’s authority is at the service of Christ’s gift of divine Revelation, the Church takes care to show how its declarations about faith and morals are consistent with that Revelation (Scripture and Tradition).

It’s important to see this authority as something other than a simplistic being able to “boss you around.” Actually, most Catholics experience Church authority in the form of straightforward declarations regarding faith & morals:

That something is or is not a part of the Faith; and That living in accordance with the Faith requires or forbids certain actions. You always retain the freedom to decide whether or not to remain in the Faith by following those teachings.

(In the Gospels, there are many cases where people hear Christ but evidently decide not to follow him. By definition, his disciples are those who seek to follow him closely and learn from him. Even when it’s hard. Catholics see the Church as continuing in Christ’s role of teaching the truth: “He who hears you hears me.”)

Why do Protestants reject this claim?

Non-Catholics usually base their rejection of Church authority on the common misconception of “misplaced worship”: it is claimed that Catholics worship the Church instead of God.

Opponents of this authority sometimes also accuse the Catholic Church of claiming power that is only proper to God.

Catholics believe that this criticism is mistaken.

The best argument for the Catholic doctrine of Church authority comes from the New Testament itself: the Acts of the Apostles reveals the Church’s self-image as a body at the service of Christ’s saving Gospel, acting in the ways and structures taught to them by Christ himself. The Apostles are keenly aware of the authority that has been given to them by Christ, and of their own need to remain ever faithful to Christ as they exercise that authority.

Additionally, this same Church authority is the only thing that guarantees the accuracy and inerrancy of the Bible itself. It was the Church that selected the books of New Testament and defined the canon of the Bible. Those who believe that the Bible is reliable, are in fact relying on the Church’s testimony that the New Testament books accurately reflect the faith & teachings of the Apostles, which is in turn grounded in the faith & teachings of Christ.

(There were many other writings available that were not selected to be a part of the Bible because their contents were flawed in some way. The Church itself made the selection many years after the death of the Apostles, based on its living witness to the Faith, guaranteed by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.)

[Elsie]

What is your take on those ECFs who have differing conclusions than those cited by the {present} rcc?

What? Where?

[Elsie]

WHAT??!!??

You throw out perfectly good teaching of the Church for your own opinion?

Festus; is the rack available today?

[Elsie]

They didn’t sit in front of a TV watching Jimmy Swaggart tell them there is no need to get out of that chair, just keep on watching his program.

You just HAD to call them forth; didn't you!!

Pope Stephen VI (896–897), who had his predecessor Pope Formosus exhumed, tried, de-fingered, briefly reburied, and thrown in the Tiber.^[1]

Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.

Pope Benedict IX (1032–1044, 1045, 1047–1048), who "sold" the Papacy

Pope Boniface VIII (1294–1303), who is lampooned in Dante's Divine Comedy

Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him were tortured.^[2]

Pope Alexander VI (1492–1503), a Borgia, who was guilty of nepotism and whose unattended corpse swelled until it could barely fit in a coffin.^[3]

Pope Leo X (1513–1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors' reserves on a single ceremony^[4]

Pope Clement VII (1523–1534), also a Medici, whose power-politicking with France, Spain, and Germany got Rome sacked.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bad_Popes

[Elsie]

“If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.” Matthew 18:17

Why do you want to put forward a half truth?

Sigh...

Some Catholics apparently CHOOSE to give a false impression every time they write:

 

"If he will not listen to the church, treat him as a pagan or tax collector." --Jesus

 

 

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Matthew 18:15-17 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) 

¹⁵ But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

¹⁶ And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.

¹⁷ And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

[Elsie]

There are MANY things in this picture that are SICK!

[Elsie]

What is it you and others don’t understand in the specific words of Christ.

Strange; ain't it!

 

John 6:28-29

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

[Elsie]

Non-Catholics usually base their rejection of Church authority on the common misconception of “misplaced worship”: it is claimed that Catholics worship the Church instead of God.

When the aliens of the future find the remenants of old FR files, and read thru the comments made by CAtholics; I wonder what conclusion that they will come to about this statement.

[Elsie]

There are no opposing views when ALL the Church fathers, the greatest theologians who ever lived, WERE ALL CATHOLIC! Why is that so hard for people to understand.

Are you REALLY this ignorant?

Baghdad Bob wasn't this audacious!

[Elsie]

End of subject.

One can only hope!

[Elsie]

Mormans are not Christian to start with.

You make Tommy cry!

[Elsie]

Mormans are not Christian to start with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5evKY5n0GM

[Elsie]

The Morman Bible is based on the KJV of the Bible.

If upstate New York had been heavily Catholic; it would have been plagiarized from the Vulgate.

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But; since it wasn't...

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GOD instructed JS, Jr. to re-translate the KJV to get the errors out.

SLC Mormonism does NOT use this version (No; I do NOT know why); perferring the error prone KJV instead.

Here is a small sample of the changes...

 

See some differences between GOD's Word and the Joseph Smith's 'translation'

 

 

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Color coding explanation:

 

Added stuff... Changed stuff... Rearranged stuff... Removed stuff... 

 *(UNDERLINED stuff is the DISTRACTING reference on every tenth word or so that infuses LDS 'scripture' online.)

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JOSEPH SMITH—MATTHEW An extract from the translation of the Bible as revealed to Joseph Smith the Prophet in 1831: Matthew 23: 39 and chapter 24. Jesus foretells the impending destruction of Jerusalem—He also discourses on the second coming of the Son of Man, and the destruction of the wicked. 1 aFor I say unto you, that ye shall not see me henceforth and know that I am he of whom it is written by the prophets, until ye shall say: Blessed is he who bcometh in the name of the Lord, in the clouds of heaven, and all the holy angels with him. Then understood his disciples that he should come again on the earth, after that he was glorified and ccrowned on the right hand of God. 2 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple; and his disciples came to him, for to ahear him, saying: Master, show us concerning the buildings of the temple, as thou hast said—They shall be thrown down, and left unto you desolate. 3 And Jesus said unto them: See ye not all these things, and do ye not understand them? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here, upon this temple, one astone upon another that shall not be thrown down. 4 And Jesus left them, and went upon the Mount of Olives. And as he sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be which thou hast said concerning the destruction of the temple, and the Jews; and what is the asign of thy bcoming, and of the cend of the world, or the destruction of the dwicked, which is the end of the world? 5 And Jesus answered, and said unto them: Take heed that no man deceive you; 6 For many shall come in my name, saying—I am aChrist—and shall deceive many; 7 Then shall they deliver you up to be aafflicted, and shall kill you, and ye shall be bhated of all nations, for my name’s sake; 8 And then shall many be aoffended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another; 9 And many afalse prophets shall arise, and shall deceive many; 10 And because iniquity shall abound, the alove of many shall wax cold; 11 But he that remaineth asteadfast and is not overcome, the same shall be saved. 12 When you, therefore, shall see the aabomination of bdesolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, concerning the destruction of cJerusalem, then you shall stand in the dholy place; whoso readeth let him understand. 13 Then let them who are in Judea flee into the amountains; 14 Let him who is on the housetop flee, and not return to take anything out of his house; 15 Neither let him who is in the field return back to take his clothes; 16 And wo unto them that are with achild, and unto them that give suck in those days; 17 Therefore, pray ye the Lord that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day; 18 For then, in those days, shall be great atribulation on the bJews, and upon the inhabitants of cJerusalem, such as was not before sent upon Israel, of God, since the beginning of their kingdom until this time; no, nor ever shall be sent again upon Israel. 19 All things which have befallen them are only the beginning of the sorrows which shall come upon them. 20 And except those days should be shortened, there should none of their flesh be asaved; but for the elect’s sake, according to the bcovenant, those days shall be shortened. 21 Behold, these things I have spoken unto you concerning the Jews; and again, after the tribulation of those days which shall come upon Jerusalem, if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there, believe him not; 22 For in those days there shall also arise false aChrists, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch, that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect, who are the elect according to the covenant. 23 Behold, I speak these things unto you for the aelect’s sake; and you also shall hear of bwars, and rumors of wars; see that ye be not troubled, for all I have told you must come to pass; but the end is not yet. 24 Behold, I have told you before; 25 Wherefore, if they shall say unto you: Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: Behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not; 26 For as the light of the morning cometh out of the aeast, and shineth even unto the west, and covereth the whole earth, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be. 27 And now I show unto you a parable. Behold, wheresoever the acarcass is, there will the eagles be bgathered together; so likewise shall mine elect be gathered from the four quarters of the earth. 28 And they shall hear of wars, and rumors of wars. 29 Behold I speak for mine elect’s sake; for nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there shall be afamines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 30 And again, because iniquity shall abound, the love of men shall wax acold; but he that shall not be overcome, the same shall be saved. 31 And again, this aGospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world, for a witness unto all bnations, and then shall the end come, or the destruction of the wicked; 32 And again shall the aabomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, be fulfilled. 33 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the asun shall be bdarkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the cstars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 34 Verily, I say unto you, this ageneration, in which these things shall be shown forth, shall not pass away until all I have told you shall be fulfilled. 35 Although, the days will come, that heaven and earth shall pass away; yet my awords shall not pass away, but all shall be fulfilled. 36 And, as I said before, after the atribulation of those days, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken, then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and then shall all the tribes of the earth bmourn; and they shall see the cSon of Man dcoming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory; 37 And whoso atreasureth up my word, shall not be deceived, for the Son of Man shall bcome, and he shall send his cangels before him with the great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together the dremainder of his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 38 Now learn a parable of the afig-tree—When its branches are yet tender, and it begins to put forth leaves, you know that summer is nigh at hand; 39 So likewise, mine elect, when they shall see all these things, they shall know that he is near, even at the doors; 40 But of that day, and hour, no one aknoweth; no, not the angels of God in heaven, but my Father only. 41 But as it was in the days of aNoah, so it shall be also at the coming of the Son of Man; 42 For it shall be with them, as it was in the days which were before the aflood; for until the day that Noah entered into the ark they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage; 43 And aknew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be. 44 Then shall be fulfilled that which is written, that in the alast days, two shall be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the other bleft; 45 Two shall be grinding at the mill, the one shall be taken, and the other left; 46 And what I say unto one, I say unto all men; awatch, therefore, for you know not at what hour your Lord doth come. 47 But know this, if the good man of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to have been broken up, but would have been ready. 48 Therefore be ye also aready, for in such an hour as ye think not, the Son of Man cometh. 49 Who, then, is a afaithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 50 Blessed is that aservant whom his lord, when he cometh, shall find so doing; and verily I say unto you, he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 51 But if that evil servant shall say in his heart: My lord adelayeth his coming, 52 And shall begin to smite his fellow-servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken, 53 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 54 And shall cut him asunder, and shall appoint him his portion with the hypocrites; there shall be weeping and agnashing of teeth. 55 And thus cometh the aend of the wicked, according to the prophecy of Moses, saying: They shall be cut off from among the people; but the end of the earth is not yet, but by and by. The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints © 2006 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved. Rights and use information. Privacy policy.

KJV Matthew 23:38-39 24:1-51 39. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. 1. And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8. All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25. Behold, I have told you before. 26. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33. So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46. Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49. And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50. The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51. And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. King James Version of the Holy Bible Public domain

[Elsie]

Quick give me a long list of Quick give me a long list of well-known Catholics that converted to protestantism.

Would a VERY long list of NOT-WELL KNOWN ones works for you?

I can give you a list of well-known MORMONs in the entertainment industry give you a tingle?

[Elsie]

It’s just artist’s depictions that have us thinking that Saul was riding a horse.

Acts 9:3-4
As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

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Since; like Elwood and Jake; Paul was on a Mission from GOD. It is assumed he'd be riding instead of WALKING the entire distance to Damascus.

[Elsie]

I LOVE the smell of an Elsiethon in the morning!

[mitch5501]

Heard someone muse way long ago that Paul's conversion happened somewhere between the horse's back and the ground.

It sounded funny and I laughed till I stopped.

[daniel1212]

Relentlessly attacking one holy catholic apostolic church without a visible, historical alternative, and without bona fide authority, seems to miss the mark, so to speak.

Relentlessly promoting one holy catholic apostolic church without a visible, historical manifestation of that as being Rome (its distinctively not in Scripture ) , and without bona fide Scriptural authority, seems to miss the mark, so to speak.

The church of Rome is far from being one, while the Scriptural and historical evidence abundantly testifies against her being the NT church. My visible, historical manifestation is that of a church which began contrary to that of Rome, with believers who recognized men and writings of God as being so, without an infallible magisterium of men, which Rome insists is essential for that. And thus churches of such believers have ordained presbuteros/episkopos as pastors, not a clergy distinctively titled 'priests" as per Catholicism, who are normally married, contrary to Catholicism, and are not required and presumed to have the gift of celibacy.

And whose primary duty was prayer and preaching the word, feeding the flock thereby, whereby souls obtained spiritual life and were "nourished," (Acts 20:28,32; 1Tim. 4:6) not by eating something physically, which priests have offered as a sacrifice for sins as per the error of Catholicism.

And which baptized believers who confessed the Lord Jesus thereby, their hearts being purified by the faith behind confession, as Peter and Paul preached, and which faith is counted for righteousnesses, (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-10; Rm. 4:1-7) thus their next postmortem (or post 2nd coming) experience would be that of being henceforth with the Lord, versus sprinkling of water rendering them good enough to be with God, thus (usually) culminating in once again becoming good enough to be with God thru postmortem purgatorial suffering of purifying torments.

And which had spiritual authority based upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, though rejected by those who were the historical stewards of Scripture, and whom they reproved by Scripture, as God can raise up true children from stones. (Mt.3:9)

In contrast assurance of Truth for a RC rests upon the the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility. And thus a faithful RC is not to ascertain the veracity of RC teaching by examination of evidences (for that reason). For to do so would be to doubt the claims of Rome to be the assuredly infallible magisterium which require assent of faith, while such magisterial teaching as encyclicals, including social teaching, requires religious assent, which excludes public dissent.

And the list goes on.

Thus the visible, historical alternative to Rome begins with the NT church (which was an alternative to following the historical magisterium in all things), and which stands in foundational (principal) and extensive contrast with the Cath church. And this historical alternative has always existed, even if as a remnant with the visible church (which, best an unholy admixture of tares and wheat cannot be the one true church, which the body of Christ alone is). This historical alternative is visible today, even with some differences (the 7 churches of Asia were all churches, despite and and bad differences), ordaining men in keeping with the principal of apostolic leadership taken place by presbuteros/episkopos, not priests, and preaching the gospel of grace, not that of Rome, and baptizing souls, praying for the sick, etc.

These are the most unified in conservative beliefs, in contrast to the fruit of Rome, which includes Ted Kennedy RCs whom you must own, as Rome counts and treats as members in life and in death. Which unholy amalgam RCs insist we must join, contrary to the words of Scripture,

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)

[ravenwolf]

A thousand head of cattle drinking out of a wash pan would be an event.

Telling some one you saw a thousand head of cattle drink out of a wash pan is not an event, it is most likely a tall tail.

[ravenwolf]

“absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”

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Yeah, sounds like something absent.

[ravenwolf]

WHAT??!!??

You throw out perfectly good teaching of the Church for your own opinion?

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What good teaching are you referring to?