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How Can the (Catholic) Church Teach Angels?
Catholic Answers ^ | March 15, 2015 | Tim Staples

Posted on 05/20/2015 2:41:37 PM PDT by NYer

In John 5:43, Jesus declared:

I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.

With the advent of Protestantism and the confusion that followed, and that continues to this day, Christians, outside of the Catholic Church, have, at best, an incomplete understanding of the power of these words. When Jesus says, “I come in my father’s name,” he reveals the nature of the authority he possesses from God, the Father.

We use this phrase—at least, the “in the name of” part—similarly in modern parlance in law enforcement when a police officer may say: “Stop in the name of the law!” In this context the idea of “in the name of” meaning “by the authority of” comes across clearly. But because we have thousands of different religious sects today all speaking “in the name of Jesus,” this phrase has lost some of its punch, so to speak, in modern times.

But make no mistake about it: What Jesus was saying in John 5:43 is this: He comes “in the name of the Father,” which means he speaks with the final and infallible authority of his Father. He leaves no back door open. No wiggle room. If you reject him, or his teaching, you reject the Father! That is the kind of authority Jesus is revealed to have received from his Father in Scripture.

What I find fascinating in speaking with non-Catholics about this is almost all of them agree with a Catholic understanding here when it comes to the authority of Jesus. But here is what they almost universally miss: Just about every time the New Testament reveals the radical nature of Christ’s authority, you will find in close proximity Christ then giving a similar authority to the Church.

Matt. 28:18-20:

… All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age (the implication is go with my authority).

John 17:8:

Right after Jesus says in verse 2, “Thou (God, the Father) hast given him (Christ) power over all flesh…” he then says, “For I have given them the words which thou hast given me…”

Luke 22:29:

After saying, “As my Father has appointed a kingdom for me,” he then immediately says, “…so do I appoint for you, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

John 20:21-23:

Jesus said to them (the apostles) again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit…”

Luke 10:16:

In the context of Jesus saying “he who rejects me rejects him (the Father) who sent me,” Jesus said, “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

John 16:26:

And finally, when Jesus speaks of himself speaking with the authority of the Father or “in the name of the Father” in John 5:43, he then prophesies that after the coming of the power of the Holy Spirit, “The hour is coming when I shall no longer speak to you in figures but tell you plainly of the Father. In that day you will ask in my name

Further, we see explicit references in Scripture to the authority of the Church being the final authority given by God to the world.

Matt. 18:15-18:

If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

I Tim. 3:14-15:

I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that, if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark (foundation) of the truth.

Notice, this last text is given in the context of St. Paul describing some of the offices of the Church; namely, the bishop and the deacon (i.e. earlier in chapter 3).

St. Paul's Letter to the Ephesians

The above represent very plain texts. And there are many more we could consider. But for our purpose here, consider St. Paul’s letter to the Ephesians. In chapter 1, St. Paul says plainly that the Church is the fullness of Christ in the world today; thus, to reject the Church is to reject Christ:

Eph. 1:20-23:

[God] raised [Christ] from the dead and made him sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come; and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

In chapter 2, St. Paul tells us the Church is the foundation of our faith (specifically, it says "the apostles and prophets" are the foundation, with Jesus Christ "being the cornerstone"), similar to what he said in I Tim. 3:15:

Eph. 2:19-20:

So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone.

In chapter 3, St. Paul speaks in the loftiest terms of the nature of the teaching authority of the Church:

Eph. 3:8-10:

To me… this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.

St. Thomas Aquinas speculates as to the truth behind this text in his commentary on Ephesians:

The means through which the manifold wisdom of God is made known to [the angels] is designated by his saying “through the church.”

St. Thomas then explains that the angels are far superior to men on earth, when it comes to knowledge, as are the saints in heaven, I would add, through the beatific knowledge that they possess. However, he explains, it is because of the fact that the Church is the instrument of God that her certain teachings have God as their first principle; hence, the Church can truly be said to “teach angels.” He goes on:

Therefore, it must be asserted that the angels are instructed through the church, that is, through the apostolic preaching… in such a way that they are not taught by the apostles, but in them

... angels know natural things in two ways. They know them in the Word… and they know them in their own proper natures… Further, there exist certain intelligible patterns [operative in] the mysteries of grace which transcend the whole of creation. These intelligible patterns are not impressed on the angelic minds (that would be through the beatific vision) but are hidden in God alone. Thus, the angels do not grasp them in themselves, nor even in God, but only as they unfold in events [which the mysteries] effect.

To put it simply, angels know all they can know of God and their own natures through their perfect natures, the gift of grace, and the beatific vision. So, how could they possibly learn anything? They can learn because when it comes to how God’s grace is going to work in the world of humans, a world alien to them, the angels can and do learn. But as St. Thomas says, this “learning” does not come through the inferior human nature; rather, it comes through the divine gift of God operating in the Church. As St. Paul said in Ephesians 3:10, “through the church, the manifold wisdom of God is made known to the [angels].”

Think about it, folks. If the Church teaches angels who have the beatific vision, how much more do we puny humans need to heed the authority of the Church! Imagine the scene, say, at Vatican II. The bishops of the world were not the only ones gathered for the 21st Ecumenical Council. The angels of God were gathered as well, saying, "What are they going to say next?"

St. Paul then guarantees us (no matter what our Mormon friends may say, who claim “the great apostasy!”) that this Church he is describing will exist “in every generation world without end” in Eph. 3:21.

He then tells us even further that this Church would be characterized by its unity: It would teach:

…one Lord, one faith, one baptism… (Eph. 4:5)

And it would be hierarchical:

Therefore it is said, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”… And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God (Eph. 4:8, 11-13).

So why did God give us this glorious Church that possesses the authority of Jesus Christ?

So that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine… (Eph. 4:14)

The history of Protestantism is one of “children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine.”

 



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: angels; catholic; catholicanswers; catholicchurch; timstaples
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To: metmom

I could have SWORN that the emperor had clothes on when he left the palace this morning!


201 posted on 05/22/2015 6:16:47 AM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Karl Spooner; NYer

Wasn’t Christ made a little lower than the angels? And you think you are better than both?


To be fair, Mary “queen of heaven and co-redemstress” is on the top of the Catholic organizational chart. In the Catholic eye you can’t be any greater than their “goddess.”


202 posted on 05/22/2015 6:24:33 AM PDT by Rides_A_Red_Horse (Why do you need a fire extinguisher when you can call the fire department?)
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To: Karl Spooner

Much of the Catholic “doctrine” sounds similar to the insane rantings of Mohamad.


203 posted on 05/22/2015 6:26:16 AM PDT by Rides_A_Red_Horse (Why do you need a fire extinguisher when you can call the fire department?)
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To: verga
MM; Elsie somehow forgot to ping you to 165.

Golly!

I guess I did!


To: ealgeone

“Nope. No mind reading.”

R-I-G-H-T.

“John 6 is the catholic go to on this topic.”

I didn’t go to it. Does it bother you to be wrong this often?

“In either case you still need to keep things in context.”

In any case, I’m still right. And I didn’t take anything out of context. If you have a problem understanding scripture, it’s your problem.

165 posted on ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2015‎ ‎5‎:‎48‎:‎42‎ ‎PM by vladimir998

204 posted on 05/22/2015 6:47:48 AM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Rides_A_Red_Horse
Much of the Catholic “doctrine” sounds similar to the insane rantings of Mohamad.

Bah!

Mad Mo just has swords for necks.

We gots hot oil, racks, iron maidens, tongue extractors.

You name it and we got it!

--Wannabe_Catholic_Dude(When would be a good tim... oh wait: that's the other guy...)

205 posted on 05/22/2015 6:50:03 AM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Yeah, you’ve got a point there! But once it’s in place that’s it.


206 posted on 05/22/2015 7:32:49 AM PDT by Grateful2God (Because no word shall be impossible with God. And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord...)
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To: Grateful2God; smvoice; metmom
BTW: Congrats! The remarks just hit a self-righteous, narcissistic low, good Christians. Hope you're proud.

I think what smvoice said was said not to be snarky.. but was a serious question. We are not saved by our "feelings".There are many things that make us feel good, or peaceful, that are not eternal.

Mass is a comfortable ritual that brings many back to an earlier time in their lives. I still remember all the english responses to the english mass.. and when to stand and when to sit.. That was a part of my history..(as was the latin version of my youth ).. that does not make it pleasing in the sight of God.

207 posted on 05/22/2015 7:37:11 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Grateful2God; RnMomof7; metmom

I just want to know when giving the gospel of the salvation of God became known as “being snarky”. THAT is a new low, Grateful. There is nothing in my post that in any way deserves your snarky reply. Believe the gospel, reject the gospel, it’s your salvation.


208 posted on 05/22/2015 9:09:34 AM PDT by smvoice ("Now is the accepted time; now is the day of salvation" 2Cor. 6:2)
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To: verga; smvoice
Courtesy ping, smvoice.

Sad, verga, but the evidence backs it up. It's a shame, because there are non-Catholics here who are interesting, make edifying posts, and that I feel I learn from, even if we don't always agree.

On the other hand, there are the people who are constantly slamming the Church and insisting we're all going to hell. Where they're concerned, it's difficult to tell between having genuine concern for souls, and gloating over their own perceived salvation. Bottom line: we're all going to face God one day. It's His place to judge, and no one else's... including mine! ;)

And, I agree, some just have to be posers! It gets surreal around here sometimes! 😁

209 posted on 05/22/2015 9:36:02 AM PDT by Grateful2God (Because no word shall be impossible with God. And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord...)
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To: Grateful2God
On the other hand, there are the people who are constantly slamming the Church and insisting we're all going to hell.

And yet the CCC states this.....

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

Catholics are in NO position to hypocritically whine that someone is telling them they're going to hell for believing as they do.

I've never gone to a church where it's found in their statement of faith that if someone isn't part of their church they're going to hell.

Except Catholicism.

So quit yer whining....

210 posted on 05/22/2015 12:04:23 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Grateful2God
Yeah, you’ve got a point there! But once it’s in place that’s it.

So the RULES in place since Day One were NOT sufficient; eh?

Gotta have NEW hoops to jump thru.

211 posted on 05/22/2015 12:18:04 PM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Grateful2God
On the other hand, there are the people who are constantly slamming the Church and insisting we're all going to hell.

When the attacks come from one of the usual suspects the best thing to do is tell them they are wrong and bid them a good day.

About a year and a half ago I went to see my confessor and spiritual adviser. I had a student that had been involved with the wrong side of the law. Monsignor suggested that ever time the young man got on my nerves to say a Hail Mary for him, and then he added, "It might not do him any good at all, but it will certainly help you."

And as usual he was spot on.

I find it helps with the posers here as well. Just something for you to consider.

212 posted on 05/22/2015 12:25:54 PM PDT by verga (I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
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To: smvoice
FYI, smvoice. I never said, "snarky." I do however, stand by what I did say.

It's good to read the posts before replying, so as to avoid making inadvertent false accusations.

213 posted on 05/22/2015 12:31:56 PM PDT by Grateful2God (Because no word shall be impossible with God. And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord...)
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To: verga
Thank you, I needed that and you're right. A quote from St. Thomas More:

Give me the grace, Good Lord...To think my worst enemies my best friends, for the brethren of Joseph could never have done him so much good with their love and favor as they did him with their malice and hatred.

God bless you!

214 posted on 05/22/2015 12:42:15 PM PDT by Grateful2God (Because no word shall be impossible with God. And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord...)
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To: metmom
Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

Encore:
The Second Vatican Council speaks of salvation outside the Church in Lumen Gentium, nos. 14 and 16. Here are the pertinent sections from those two articles: 14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved. [. . .]

16. [. . .] Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel. She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life.

215 posted on 05/22/2015 1:04:48 PM PDT by Grateful2God (Because no word shall be impossible with God. And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord...)
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To: Grateful2God
You should really try to be a kinder person, "Grateful". The snideness and perpetual anger serve no good purpose. Remember, laugh while you can. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..

Snarky? Or painfully honest? You decide.

216 posted on 05/22/2015 1:23:03 PM PDT by smvoice ("Now is the accepted time; now is the day of salvation" 2Cor. 6:2)
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To: Elsie

“And you been told why! I’m not going to look thru 80 or more pages of stuff trying to discern some vague point you have in your head.”

It’s 1 webpage and comes to be 46 standard pages of text - not “80 or more”. Anyone who actually takes a minute to look at the page would see the pertinent section starts on what would be page 2 if in standard text pages.

“Spit it out; boy; and we can get on with the program.”

No, I see no indication you can. I posted the website link to you repeatedly and have refused to look at it repeatedly.


217 posted on 05/22/2015 1:42:05 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Elsie

“Shall I point out you just scolded ME for not reading something?”

What would it matter if you did point it out since I did something entirely different? I posted a link to you. You refuse to read it. In my case, it was implied I was relying on John 6 for something when that was not what I did. So, not only is your accusation of hypocrisy 100% wrong but you apparently don’t even know what was going on in the first place. Figures.

The hypocrisy is all yours.


218 posted on 05/22/2015 1:49:30 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Elsie

I never claimed to be self-deprecating while calling someone a smart-alec. Notice, everything I said was completely accurate. But I guess the anti-Catholic has to focus on everything else but his refusal to do a little work, right?

“To Protestantism False Witness is the principle of propagation. … Taking things as they are, and judging of them by the long run, one may securely say, that the anti-Catholic Tradition could not be kept alive, would die of exhaustion, without a continual supply of fable.” (John Henry Newman, Lecture 4. True Testimony Insufficient for the Protestant View)


219 posted on 05/22/2015 1:57:06 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: smvoice
You still accuse me of what I didn't say.

Since you do not take responsibility for your error, nor your attitude in your posts, but rather continue to ping me, I shall oblige and let you have the last word.

Enjoy, good Christian!

220 posted on 05/22/2015 2:04:51 PM PDT by Grateful2God (Because no word shall be impossible with God. And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord...)
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