whose Seven Step Program Against the Jews led directly to the Holocaust ?
Posted on 04/20/2015 1:46:59 PM PDT by NYer
Thank you, good Christian, but I have just as much right to be here as you do. What I was wondering was why people who don't believe in the Communion of Saints felt it necessary to jump on before half a dozen posts. It simply proved what was said in the article: that most non-Catholic Christians don't believe. Why the disruption? You have plenty of anti Catholic fodder to read. But, as always, "Do what thou wilt."
None have "rights" to post comment here. It's more like a privilege.
But you did say that the thread was by and for "Catholics".
And then appeared to be indiscriminately complaining about disagreements expressed by others.
Communion of saints, and actually praying TO departed saints are not necessarily the same thing. Those two things were not identical/overlapping in the first few centuries of the Church.
I had included in my note to you mention (and Scriptural basis) of how communion of the saints could be understood.
What disruption?
If my own objections to things you have written here are "disruptive", then what of your own overall approach which is usually packed with negative commentary (and side-bars) filled with complaint about "Protestants"? Additionally, yourself having told others here on an open thread that this one was by and for "Catholics" does look like effort to stifle dissent.
Would that not be sort-of stealthily disruptive of their own rights privileges?
You've as much told me that you yourself will being doing that very thing.
Yet somehow, when it comes to those in disagreement with yourself...it's (perhaps) Aleister Crowley-like?
High-and-mighty, Romish jedi mind tricks don't work on me, FRiend. I've seen it all before.
Not worth further response.
So the church changed AGAIN???
SOMEbody had to do it!
Your EVIL popes of those years sure were not going to!
It PROVES nothing; other than you can take anything and then CLAIM it 'proves' something.
Then why bother to say that? I think I know why...
All the superficial nicey-nicey and 'God be with you' sort of talk is just a shield to hold up while attempting to stifle discussion and give one grounds for ignoring anything which is said if such discussion turns into disagreement with 'Rome'.
Yet the fundamental flaw with the entire article, which I touched upon previously;
John 14 shows something else other than praying to anyone save for Our Father (who is in heaven). Yes, I know, the "Our Father" is not found expressed word-for-word in John 14. Yet it was a direct teaching of Christ which carries very much across the board, continuing the pattern of how we all must posture ourselves before the One God Almighty-All sufficient, El Shaddai. Once He is met with in the manner spoken of in John14 then it becomes clearer just who He is. (Deuteronomy 4:24 (Hebrews 12:29)
If yourself or any here would care to consider those things, taken up all together at once to consider all at once ---- then hopefully the differing conception of 'communion of the saints' which I've been driving at could at least be understood.
If one does not or cannot understand what I'm talking about, and then not even TRY to understand any other than their own viewpoints, then productive conversation about this issue will be difficult if not impossible.
In the meantime, take the dictatorial "better than though" sort of snootiness for a hike. Or at least set it aside upon some shelf long enough to understand what it is that is being said, instead of having anyone needing discuss things merely (and only) as your own co-religionists frame whatever issue is under discussion here.
You know, like speak towards an actual underlying issue instead of just a --- this side against some other side commentary while replies are attempted to be held hostage to "feelings" and Catholics own views of themselves and their Church ecclesiastical community?
Yet if it is insisted that it be either agreement with RCC views, or else if not all bow-and-scraping nicey-nicey when expressing objections to some theological aspect or another under discussion, what is that but an attempt to hold the manner of expression of dissenters hostage to some lopsided view of your own, and perhaps others regarding theological discussion?
What of the RCC having rhetorically made itself out to be God on earth? I noticed that was skipped over also.
That one place in the document entitled Lumum Gentium is not the only place where Romanists make those kind of noises, yet -- the Roman Catholic Church is most certainly not God.
Try to wrap your mind around that for just one moment...
One moment may be all it takes to begin to see the light.
THANK YOU.
There are certain tenets of Catholicism which have caused heated arguments in forum. Many involve what is known to us as part of the Communion of Saints. Before the discussion had a chance to begin, a post appeared calling out the perceived Protestant-bashing in the article- which simply compared the difference in beliefs, without derision.
Why the subsequent personal remarks toward me, beginning with the suggestion I leave forum, have been tolerated, well, I have no answer. I simply chose to step away from a poster whose remarks were, I felt, inappropriate, and personal attacks on my credibility.
I do however, have the Catholic Church's teaching on what we call The Communion of Saints. Our usual points of dispute are highlighted; one can see why this has become another thread which has reached large proportions.
II. THE COMMUNION OF THE CHURCH OF HEAVEN AND EARTH
954 The three states of the Church.
"When the Lord comes in glory, and all his angels with him, death will be no more and all things will be subject to him. But at the present time some of his disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory, contemplating 'in full light, God himself triune and one, exactly as he is"':492
All of us, however, in varying degrees and in different ways share in the same charity towards God and our neighbors, and we all sing the one hymn of glory to our God. All, indeed, who are of Christ and who have his Spirit form one Church and in Christ cleave together.
955 "So it is that the union of the wayfarers with the brethren who sleep in the peace of Christ is in no way interrupted, but on the contrary, according to the constant faith of the Church, this union is reinforced by an exchange of spiritual goods."494
956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness. . . . They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus . . . . So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."495 Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life.496 I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth.497
957 Communion with the saints.
"It is not merely by the title of example that we cherish the memory of those in heaven; we seek, rather, that by this devotion to the exercise of fraternal charity the union of the whole Church in the Spirit may be strengthened. Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself"498:
We worship Christ as God's Son; we love the martyrs as the Lord's disciples and imitators, and rightly so because of their matchless devotion towards their king and master. May we also be their companions and fellow disciples!499
958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and
959 In the one family of God. "For if we continue to love one another and to join in praising the Most Holy Trinity - all of us who are sons of God and form one family in Christ - we will be faithful to the deepest vocation of the Church."501
IN BRIEF
960 The Church is a "communion of saints": this expression refers first to the "holy things" (sancta), above all
961 The term "communion of saints" refers also to the communion of"holy persons" (sancti) in Christ who "died for all," so that what each one does or suffers in and for Christ bears fruit for all.
962
Mind reading?
G2G: Not worth further response.
BD: Then why bother to say that?
Because I have no desire to receive emails from this handle: neither did I previously, and my request in advance to stop was not respected.
Call me Captain Obvious
It takes a LOT less typing to just skip over something that displeases you; than typing, "my request in advance to stop was not respected."
This merely shows (to me anyway) a certain petulance.
Aye aye.
Petulance, Obvious.
...ah, what's that?...you've already met?
It seems to me that some fool themselves into thinking they have valid game.
Luther posted his complaints in public; changed the Bible to accommodate his views on Purgatory; threw out dogmas and Sacraments; married a nun; began his own church bearing his name: I'd say the man was definitely an independent thinker.
If your statement about his Catholic roots holds true, then would it not follow that our fellow FReepers who are former Catholics would still maintain their Catholic roots as well? I don't think that argument really works. We are all a product of our past, but it is unreasonable to credit the man for his virtues and blame the Church for his flaws.
Whatever Luther was, in all honesty, I never realized how he felt about the Jewish people.
At the beginning of his career, Martin Luther was apparently sympathetic to Jewish resistance to the Catholic Church. However, he expected the Jews to convert to his purified Christianity; when they did not, he turned violently against them.
Luther used violent and vulgar language throughout his career. While we do not expect religious figures to use this sort of language in the modern world, but it was not uncommon in the early 16th century.
The following are excerpts from Luther's work entitled "The Jews & their Lies":
First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians
Take away their freedom of worship?
Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies.
Destroy their homes? There are 7 items in this series, to be found on the link above.
Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them, as Moses did in the wilderness, slaying three thousand lest the whole people perish. They surely do not know what they are doing; moreover, as people possessed, they do not wish to know it, hear it, or learn it. There it would be wrong to be merciful and confirm them in their conduct. If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs, so that we do not become partakers of their abominable blasphemy and all their other vices and thus merit God's wrath and be damned with them. I have done my duty. Now let everyone see to his. I am exonerated.
I'll read the bulls, and dust off my encyclicals, as I know the latter will better reflect the Church's current position.
I don't agree with Luther and what he did in his life. I can't see into his conscience; but I felt that, however misguided, he was trying to do the right thing. Whatever belief system a person subscribes to, however, his promulgation of this and other horrible things he encouraged others to do is intrinsically wrong- especially when done in the name of Christianity. I gave Luther more credit than that.
I'm sorry, but I am pro-Israel, pro-Semitic and I believe that the Jews are the Chosen People of God, from whom came Jesus, through His descent from the line of Judah, soon of Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham. They did not kill Christ: mankind in his sins did. They have not yet found their Messiah, and so, together, we wait: the Jews for His first coming, and we for His second. God bless them and keep them free from their enemies.
I know the difference. I’m just making certain history, at least in that respect, is not repeated.
"Fatta i cosi tui" - Italian for, "mind your own business."
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