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Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints
Shameless popery ^ | April 20, 2015

Posted on 04/20/2015 1:46:59 PM PDT by NYer

As Christianity Today acknowledges, prayers for and to the Saints date back to the early Church (in fact, these practices date back far earlier, even to Old Testament Judaism, but I'll talk more about that tomorrow). Nevertheless, these practices are controversial within Protestantism. Today, I want to look at just one of them -- prayer to the Saints -- and show why the opposition to it is grounded in a faulty view of life after death. Tomorrow, I'll look at the Biblical support for both prayer to the Saints and prayer for the Saints.

First, a word on why Protestants tend to object to prayer to the Saints. For some people, such prayers are sinful, since they think it gives glory to someone other than God, or that it's equivalent to “consulting the dead.” Others view it simply as impossible, since they think that the Saints can't hear us, or are unconcerned with what's going on here below. But almost all of these arguments are built upon the same three misconceptions about the souls of the Saints who have gone before us. Given this, let's present the Biblical view on each of these three major points:

Johann Michael Rottmayr, Intercession of Charles Borromeo supported by the Virgin Mary (1714)
1. The Saints in Heaven are Alive, not Dead.

The first mistake in opposing “prayers to the dead” is assuming that we're praying to “the dead.” One of the most frequently cited passages against prayer to the Saints in Heaven is Isaiah 8:19,
And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Those who oppose prayer to the Saints present a straightforward argument: the faithful departed are dead, and it's sinful to “consult the dead.”

But the first premise -- that the faithful departed are dead -- is false, and directly contrary to Scripture. Jesus actually denounces this view as Biblically ignorant (Mk. 12:24). He reveals the truth about the Saints when He says, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). And in response to the Sadduccees, He says (Mark 12:26-27):
And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.
So the Protestant view that says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are “dead” is “quite wrong.”

Read the literature written against prayers to the Saints, and see how frequently they're mischaracterized as “the dead.” This isn't a harmless mistake. The passages warning against “the dead” simply don't apply to the question of the Saints. Indeed, a great many popular assumptions about the afterlife are built on the idea that verses like Psalm 115:17 (“The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into the silence”) apply to the Saints in Heaven. They don't, and Christ tells us that they don't.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent (12th c. icon)
2. The Saints in Heaven are Witnesses, not Sleeping or Ignorant.

Related to the first mistake is the idea that the departed Saints are cut off from us on Earth, and that it's therefore immoral (or at least futile) to communicate with them. This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

First, soul sleep. The United Church of God argues against praying to “dead” saints:
In addition to all this, praying to dead saints today assumes the doctrine of the immortal soul, which many people are surprised to find is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that death is like sleep that lasts until the resurrection at Jesus Christ's second coming (1 Thessalonians:4:13-16 ).
Now, United Church of God aren't mainstream Protestants by any stretch: they are Sabbatarians (meaning that they reject Sunday worship) and they reject the Trinity. But this notion of soul sleep can be traced to Martin Luther, who wrote:
For the Christian sleeps in death and in that way enters into life, but the godless departs from life and experiences death forever [...] Hence death is also called in the Scriptures a sleep. For just as he who falls asleep does not know how it happens, and he greets the morning when he awakes, so shall we suddenly arise on the last day, and never know how we entered and passed through death.
Even Luther's most militant supporters concede that he held some sort of confused and often-contradictory notion of “soul sleep.” So, too, did many of the Radical Reformers. In this view, the souls of the Saints aren't “conscious,” and so it would be futile to ask them for prayers.

The second camp rejects soul sleep, but thinks that the souls in Heaven are isolated from us. For example, the website “Just for Catholics” acknowledges that the first half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, but says that these Scriptures aren't permitted to be used as prayer:
Even though the first two sentences are taken from the Bible, it does not mean that it is right to use them as a prayer. Mary could hear the salutations of the Gabriel and Elizabeth because they spoke in her immediate presence. Now Mary is dead and her soul is in heaven. She cannot hear the prayers of thousands and thousands who constantly call upon her name. Only the all-knowing God can hear the prayers of His people.
But Scripture doesn't present the Saints in Heaven as isolated or spiritually asleep. Rather, even in their “rest,” they're presented as alert and aware of the goings-on of Earth (Revelation 6:9-11):
I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Perhaps the clearest description of the relationship between the Saints in Heaven and the saints on Earth is in the Book of Hebrews. Chapter 11 is a litany of Saints who lived by faith, leading immediately into this (Heb. 12:1-2):
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
The spiritual life is compared to competing in a race, an image that Paul uses elsewhere (1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-7). Here, the imagery is fleshed out to show that the Saints in Heaven are a great crowd of witnesses in the stands. Obviously, this idea of the heavenly Saints as “a crowd of witnesses” is incompatible with the idea that they're either asleep or unavailable to see us.

Matthias Gerung, John's Vision, from the Ottheinrich Bible (1531)
3. The Saints in Heaven are Still Part of the Church.

The Biblical depiction of the Saints as the heavenly witnesses in the grandstands of our spiritual race rebuts a third view: namely, that the Saints are enjoying God's company so much that they've stopped caring about us. For example, a Christian Post column on the subject seems to suggest that the Saints don't do anything for us once they're in Heaven:
So yes, they are not really dead. But that doesn't mean they hear our prayers, or provide even the slightest bit of assistance in answer to our prayers, regardless of how noble their lives may have been while on earth. God doesn't use saints in heaven to bless saints on earth. Instead, God utilizes His holy angels to minister to His children on earth. 
Such a view gets things entirely backwards. Rather, their holiness and their enjoyment of God means that they love us and care for us all the more. That's why they're witnesses to our spiritual race; that's why the martyrs in Heaven are still concerned with justice on Earth. The more we love God, the more we love our neighbor. And the Saints love God with a perfection impossible to us here below.

One way to think about this is to remember the shocking fact that the Saints are still part of the Church. The Bible describeds the Church as both the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. For example, St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24), and the Body of Christ is the Church (Ephesians 5:23). The Saints aren't somehow cut off from Christ in Heaven, which is why we see the Holy Spirit presenting the Bride of Christ in Heaven (Revelation 21:9, 22:17). That membership in the Church helps to explain their heavenly intercession (1 Corinthians 12:24-26):
But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member of suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
So both perfect Christian charity and our union in the Body of Christ help to account for why the Saints intercede for us. 

Conclusion

Scripture repeatedly calls for us to pray for one another (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1; Colossians 4:3; Hebrews 13:18), to make “supplications for all the saints” (Ephesians 6:18), and for “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings” to be made “for all men” (1 Timothy 2:1). Neither in praying for one another nor in asking one another for prayers do we risk offending God in the slightest. Quite the contrary: “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Catholic position simply applies these Scriptural teaching to the entire Body of Christ, while the standard Protestant position says that these teachings don't apply to the parts of the Church that are already in Heaven. The view goes awry in calling for us to ignore an entire portion of the Body of Christ: urging us not to pray for the faithful departed, and not to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. Scripture calls for us to “have the same care for one another,” to suffer and triumph with the other parts of the Body. The Saints' glory is ours; our struggles are theirs. 

As you can see from the above post, many of the most popular arguments against praying to the Saints are based on false ideas about what happens to the souls of the just after death: thinking that the Saints are dead, or asleep, or isolated, or apathetic, or outside the Church. In fact, they're alive and before God, yet still connected to us, witnessing our triumphs, failures and struggles, all the while rooting for us and praying for us. 

With a correct view of the state of the glorified Saints and their role in the Church, most of the arguments against seeking their intercession simply dissolve. There's simply no good reason to cut the heavenly Saints off from the rest of the Body. You're surrounded by Heavenly witnesses who are supporting you in your spiritual race. What's more, they're your brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, by all means, ask for their spiritual help and encouragement!


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Other Christian; Prayer
KEYWORDS: prayer; prayerstosaints; praying; saints; venoration
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To: RnMomof7
The jews do not have a saving God either..

False; why did you use the word "God" instead of "god" as you did for the others ?

Do you think the other Protestants here concur with you ?

761 posted on 04/22/2015 1:09:54 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: af_vet_1981
The God of the scriptures revealed Himself over and over to the jews.. they have refused Him ..the god they "pray to "is not a triune God..remember ..that is why they cried to crucify Christ, when He told them He was God.. , No the god of the jews has no power to save

https://carm.org/do-christians-muslims-jews-worship-same-god

762 posted on 04/22/2015 1:21:57 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7

..which was the whole reason Israel was blinded and set aside in Acts 28. They WILL profess Him one day (the tribulation) and He will restore Israel to its former glory and rule and reign from Jerusalem. But until that time, there is the present time, the dispensation of the grace of God, where there is neither Jew nor Gentile, we are the same before God. He is making of Himself one new man, the Church, the Body of Christ. When the last member of the Body is saved, we will be raptured and He will once again turn His eyes to Israel and the covenants He made with that nation.


763 posted on 04/22/2015 1:31:27 PM PDT by smvoice (There are no prizes given for defending the indefensible.)
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To: af_vet_1981
God must be worshipped in spirit and in truth.
John 4:23,24"But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
Islam teaches (see the Koran) that ALL Jews and ALL Christians and all infidels must be killed.

See the word "must" enlarged above?

What God would accept worship from a "religion" that wants all of his true followers KILLED?

I'm sure God knows that Allah is a false god and that is the "god" that Islam worships.

Yes, Islam is a monotheistic religion that worships the God of Abraham, albeit in grave error. As you point out, so do other Protestant derivatives that may be called cults or religions

Do not twist my words into what you wish to respond to.

First, NO, Islam is a monotheistic religion that claims they worship the God of Abraham. If you believe their lie, fine but do NOT change the meaning of my words to fit your agenda.

Your statement "As you point out, so do other Protestant derivatives that may be called cults or religions" is a blatant false "interpretation" of what I said.

This is what I said for comparison:

One of the main tactics to get people to follow Islam is to lie. Naturally they will claim they follow the God of Abraham.

So, as do the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, they are deceiving many people in order to create a world of Muslims only.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe Jesus is God, so they do not worship the God of the Bible.

They use a name for God also, so do you accept them as a Christian belief system?

Mormons worship a god that used to be a man, they do not worship the God of the Bible.

They call God Heavenly Father, so because the God of the Bible is called the Heavenly Father, do you believe Mormons worship the God of the Bible?

That old canard of Allah just being another word for God is getting old. The "god" Allah is NOT the God of the Bible.

The issue is not whether they are in grave error (they are) and their particular scriptures are false (they are), but whether they recognize that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the one and only true God (they do)

That is the issue you want, not me.

The issue is that even satan knows who the real God of the Bible is.

And he is the god of Islam. Satan.

He's got them fooled, and apparently you too.

Do not post anymore statements and ideas that falsely portray what I have said.

That is deceptive, false, in error, wrong and makes your responses completely inaccurate.

764 posted on 04/22/2015 1:46:40 PM PDT by Syncro (Jesus Christ, the same today, yesterday, and forever!)
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To: af_vet_1981; RnMomof7; editor-surveyor; roamer_1
Islam does not believe God is triune; neither does Judaism, Mormonism, JWitnesses, Oneness Pentecostalism, etc. All these religions profess to believe in one God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

A bit more complex than the above. That's what the Muslims want people to believe. However, with Muslims Allah functions as the proper name of the deity. According to the Holy Scriptures, the one noun which functions as God's true and proper name is YHWH(Yahweh), not Allah.

YHWH made His Name known to Israel. YHWH is not the revealed Name in the Qur'an. Muhammad received his 'visions' or revelation from Satan or demons so we should never pony up to a Muslim and say we have the same God. Plus YHWH will not confuse and He set His Son's Name above all others.

The Qur'an does not place the Name of Jesus (Yeshua) Christ (Messiah) "which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The Qur'an is a false message and Muhammad a false prophet. Why should followers of Messiah Jesus try to even hint the Muslims worship the same God?

765 posted on 04/22/2015 1:48:29 PM PDT by redleghunter (1 Peter 1:3-5)
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To: RnMomof7

Correct me if I am wrong, for if I am remembering correctly Jesus did not tell anyone that he was God quote-unquote, but instead told them that same truth in a different way, telling the people that He was the son of God.

According to the Hebrew traditions which included that a son be equal to the father --- that would have made it out to be that Jesus was telling them that He was God, was equal to God.

Jesus said a lot of things...such as "If you have seen me you have seen the Father".

It is common enough for Christians to not necessarily take that particular saying of Jesus's to mean that Jesus was saying that He himself was the Father, as if there was no distinguishing one from another in utmost entirety.

As difficult as that can be to sort out (for they are truly One in higher spiritual reality, not just "as" one poetically, or as a manner of rhetorical description) it seems not at all likely to me that Jesus was as much saying that God the Father looked just like himself in physical appearance.

766 posted on 04/22/2015 1:49:00 PM PDT by BlueDragon (...slicing through the bologna like Belushi at a Samurai Delicatessen...)
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To: Iscool

You’ll be surprised.


767 posted on 04/22/2015 1:50:50 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ( If you're going to tell people the truth, be funny or they'll kill you. - Billy Wilder)
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To: BlueDragon

From behind, you can’t tell whether they are nuns or muzlims with fancied up burqas...


768 posted on 04/22/2015 1:53:12 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: editor-surveyor
It thoroughly exposes the failure of the man made Trinity model.

Not at all...

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Unless you think God had a mouse in his pocket...

769 posted on 04/22/2015 1:56:03 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: BlueDragon
Correct me if I am wrong, for if I am remembering correctly Jesus did not tell anyone that he was God quote-unquote, but instead told them that same truth in a different way, telling the people that He was the son of God.

""Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad." The people said, "You aren't even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?" Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!""

.that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"--he then said to the paralytic--"Rise, pick up your bed and go home." And he rose and went home. When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God..."7 He said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."8

"When John heard in prison what Christ was doing, he sent his disciples to ask him, 'Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?' Jesus replied, 'Go back and report to John what you hear and see; The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.'"

The jews saw His claims as being he was God

Furthermore, Jesus made an unmistakable claim to deity before the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin. Caiaphas the high priest asked Him: “‘Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?’ ‘I am,’ said Jesus. ‘And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven’” (Mark14:61–62). A biblically illiterate person might well have missed the import of Jesus’ words. Caiaphas and the council, however, did not. They knew that in saying he was “the Son of Man” who would come “on the clouds of heaven” he was making an overt reference to the Son of Man in Daniel’s prophecy (Dan. 7:13–14). In doing so, He was not only claiming to be the preexistent Sovereign of the universe but prophesying that He would vindicate His claim by judging the very court that was now condemning Him. Moreover, by combining Daniel’s prophecy with David’s proclamation in Psalm 110, Jesus was claiming that He would sit upon the throne of Israel’s God and share God’s very glory. To students of the Old Testament this was the height of “blasphemy,” thus “they all condemned him as worthy of death” (Mark14:64–65).

http://www.equip.org/article/did-jesus-claim-to-be-god/

770 posted on 04/22/2015 1:58:02 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: af_vet_1981
Well, see, there's a problem already. God was not the God of Ishmael.

Genesis 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

It would be through Isaac that Abraham's seed would be named.

Genesis 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Ishmael is called the seed of Hagar but never called the seed of Abraham. It was 13 years after the birth of Ishmael that God changed Abram to Abraham and promised:

Genesis 17:7 "And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your seed after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your seed after you. 8 And I will give to you and to your seed after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.

Notice that God never said He would be the God of the seed of Hagar. When Abraham said he wanted Ishmael to live before God he was told no that it was going to Isaac.

Genesis 17:18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! 19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

God never said He would be a God to Ishmael. He said He would be a God to Isaac. Ishmael didn't preach the God of His fathers so already there they are injecting a different god.

771 posted on 04/22/2015 2:01:25 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: BlueDragon
Jesus was as much saying that God the Father looked just like himself in physical appearance.

But God doesn't have a physical appearance, except for Jesus, who is God... I love the way that works...

772 posted on 04/22/2015 2:02:52 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: CynicalBear

BINGO!!!


773 posted on 04/22/2015 2:04:24 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Just like the god of the mormons and just like the god of the JWs he is a FALSE god

Yes, but don't forget the god of the INC, and the god of Apollo C Quiboloy. Two more false gods.

774 posted on 04/22/2015 2:11:24 PM PDT by Mark17 (Beyond the sunset, O blissful morning, when with our Savior, Heaven is begun. Earth's toiling ended)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
I said my Rosary this morning for your well-being and redemption, daniel1212, and that of everybody on this forum.

Thank you!

If no one else comes to mind at prayer time; think of me.

Although you know I don't think having Mary or any saint involved will add any thing; I know that GOD sees your heart and your intentions.

775 posted on 04/22/2015 2:12:32 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: af_vet_1981
I see a common misconception about "The Bereans" often. The Jews living in Berea are simply contrasted with those in Thessaloniki, and were more noble than those in Thessaloniki, who behaved terribly, because 1) they received Paul's apostolic word with readiness of mind, and 2) searched the scriptures daily to confirm that word to themselves. Therefore many of them were able to come to faith in Jesus as Messiah. They in no way had authority to rule on whether what Paul taught about the Messiah was true or not. It was all true because Paul had that authority, not the Bereans.

Paul preached the Gospel and the Jews of Berea searched the scriptures to confirm his proclamations. Meaning, they used the infallible Word of God to see if Paul was preaching a truth. The text did not say that the Jews of Berea searched the scriptures to confirm Paul's apostolic authority. They leaned on the authority of God's Word to confirm the message spoken.

776 posted on 04/22/2015 2:12:43 PM PDT by redleghunter (1 Peter 1:3-5)
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To: CynicalBear
Why do Catholics try to pull that?

It's what they've been Taught!

777 posted on 04/22/2015 2:13:28 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: editor-surveyor
>>Allah is clearly the moon god, not Yehova.<<

Evidently the Catholic Church can't tell the difference.

778 posted on 04/22/2015 2:14:29 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: rwa265
First, by calling her “mother of GOD” yes, the church is saying that she is the mother of GOD.

We get this!

We also 'get' the FACT that the phrase 'Mother of GOD' is NOT found in Scripture.


Have Catholics been taught they'll lose their salvation if they merely ADMIT this?

779 posted on 04/22/2015 2:15:39 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: metmom
>>By the way, the noob is no more....<<

Oh my! That didn't take long.

780 posted on 04/22/2015 2:16:25 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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