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Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints
Shameless popery ^ | April 20, 2015

Posted on 04/20/2015 1:46:59 PM PDT by NYer

As Christianity Today acknowledges, prayers for and to the Saints date back to the early Church (in fact, these practices date back far earlier, even to Old Testament Judaism, but I'll talk more about that tomorrow). Nevertheless, these practices are controversial within Protestantism. Today, I want to look at just one of them -- prayer to the Saints -- and show why the opposition to it is grounded in a faulty view of life after death. Tomorrow, I'll look at the Biblical support for both prayer to the Saints and prayer for the Saints.

First, a word on why Protestants tend to object to prayer to the Saints. For some people, such prayers are sinful, since they think it gives glory to someone other than God, or that it's equivalent to “consulting the dead.” Others view it simply as impossible, since they think that the Saints can't hear us, or are unconcerned with what's going on here below. But almost all of these arguments are built upon the same three misconceptions about the souls of the Saints who have gone before us. Given this, let's present the Biblical view on each of these three major points:

Johann Michael Rottmayr, Intercession of Charles Borromeo supported by the Virgin Mary (1714)
1. The Saints in Heaven are Alive, not Dead.

The first mistake in opposing “prayers to the dead” is assuming that we're praying to “the dead.” One of the most frequently cited passages against prayer to the Saints in Heaven is Isaiah 8:19,
And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Those who oppose prayer to the Saints present a straightforward argument: the faithful departed are dead, and it's sinful to “consult the dead.”

But the first premise -- that the faithful departed are dead -- is false, and directly contrary to Scripture. Jesus actually denounces this view as Biblically ignorant (Mk. 12:24). He reveals the truth about the Saints when He says, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). And in response to the Sadduccees, He says (Mark 12:26-27):
And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.
So the Protestant view that says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are “dead” is “quite wrong.”

Read the literature written against prayers to the Saints, and see how frequently they're mischaracterized as “the dead.” This isn't a harmless mistake. The passages warning against “the dead” simply don't apply to the question of the Saints. Indeed, a great many popular assumptions about the afterlife are built on the idea that verses like Psalm 115:17 (“The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into the silence”) apply to the Saints in Heaven. They don't, and Christ tells us that they don't.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent (12th c. icon)
2. The Saints in Heaven are Witnesses, not Sleeping or Ignorant.

Related to the first mistake is the idea that the departed Saints are cut off from us on Earth, and that it's therefore immoral (or at least futile) to communicate with them. This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

First, soul sleep. The United Church of God argues against praying to “dead” saints:
In addition to all this, praying to dead saints today assumes the doctrine of the immortal soul, which many people are surprised to find is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that death is like sleep that lasts until the resurrection at Jesus Christ's second coming (1 Thessalonians:4:13-16 ).
Now, United Church of God aren't mainstream Protestants by any stretch: they are Sabbatarians (meaning that they reject Sunday worship) and they reject the Trinity. But this notion of soul sleep can be traced to Martin Luther, who wrote:
For the Christian sleeps in death and in that way enters into life, but the godless departs from life and experiences death forever [...] Hence death is also called in the Scriptures a sleep. For just as he who falls asleep does not know how it happens, and he greets the morning when he awakes, so shall we suddenly arise on the last day, and never know how we entered and passed through death.
Even Luther's most militant supporters concede that he held some sort of confused and often-contradictory notion of “soul sleep.” So, too, did many of the Radical Reformers. In this view, the souls of the Saints aren't “conscious,” and so it would be futile to ask them for prayers.

The second camp rejects soul sleep, but thinks that the souls in Heaven are isolated from us. For example, the website “Just for Catholics” acknowledges that the first half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, but says that these Scriptures aren't permitted to be used as prayer:
Even though the first two sentences are taken from the Bible, it does not mean that it is right to use them as a prayer. Mary could hear the salutations of the Gabriel and Elizabeth because they spoke in her immediate presence. Now Mary is dead and her soul is in heaven. She cannot hear the prayers of thousands and thousands who constantly call upon her name. Only the all-knowing God can hear the prayers of His people.
But Scripture doesn't present the Saints in Heaven as isolated or spiritually asleep. Rather, even in their “rest,” they're presented as alert and aware of the goings-on of Earth (Revelation 6:9-11):
I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Perhaps the clearest description of the relationship between the Saints in Heaven and the saints on Earth is in the Book of Hebrews. Chapter 11 is a litany of Saints who lived by faith, leading immediately into this (Heb. 12:1-2):
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
The spiritual life is compared to competing in a race, an image that Paul uses elsewhere (1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-7). Here, the imagery is fleshed out to show that the Saints in Heaven are a great crowd of witnesses in the stands. Obviously, this idea of the heavenly Saints as “a crowd of witnesses” is incompatible with the idea that they're either asleep or unavailable to see us.

Matthias Gerung, John's Vision, from the Ottheinrich Bible (1531)
3. The Saints in Heaven are Still Part of the Church.

The Biblical depiction of the Saints as the heavenly witnesses in the grandstands of our spiritual race rebuts a third view: namely, that the Saints are enjoying God's company so much that they've stopped caring about us. For example, a Christian Post column on the subject seems to suggest that the Saints don't do anything for us once they're in Heaven:
So yes, they are not really dead. But that doesn't mean they hear our prayers, or provide even the slightest bit of assistance in answer to our prayers, regardless of how noble their lives may have been while on earth. God doesn't use saints in heaven to bless saints on earth. Instead, God utilizes His holy angels to minister to His children on earth. 
Such a view gets things entirely backwards. Rather, their holiness and their enjoyment of God means that they love us and care for us all the more. That's why they're witnesses to our spiritual race; that's why the martyrs in Heaven are still concerned with justice on Earth. The more we love God, the more we love our neighbor. And the Saints love God with a perfection impossible to us here below.

One way to think about this is to remember the shocking fact that the Saints are still part of the Church. The Bible describeds the Church as both the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. For example, St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24), and the Body of Christ is the Church (Ephesians 5:23). The Saints aren't somehow cut off from Christ in Heaven, which is why we see the Holy Spirit presenting the Bride of Christ in Heaven (Revelation 21:9, 22:17). That membership in the Church helps to explain their heavenly intercession (1 Corinthians 12:24-26):
But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member of suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
So both perfect Christian charity and our union in the Body of Christ help to account for why the Saints intercede for us. 

Conclusion

Scripture repeatedly calls for us to pray for one another (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1; Colossians 4:3; Hebrews 13:18), to make “supplications for all the saints” (Ephesians 6:18), and for “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings” to be made “for all men” (1 Timothy 2:1). Neither in praying for one another nor in asking one another for prayers do we risk offending God in the slightest. Quite the contrary: “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Catholic position simply applies these Scriptural teaching to the entire Body of Christ, while the standard Protestant position says that these teachings don't apply to the parts of the Church that are already in Heaven. The view goes awry in calling for us to ignore an entire portion of the Body of Christ: urging us not to pray for the faithful departed, and not to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. Scripture calls for us to “have the same care for one another,” to suffer and triumph with the other parts of the Body. The Saints' glory is ours; our struggles are theirs. 

As you can see from the above post, many of the most popular arguments against praying to the Saints are based on false ideas about what happens to the souls of the just after death: thinking that the Saints are dead, or asleep, or isolated, or apathetic, or outside the Church. In fact, they're alive and before God, yet still connected to us, witnessing our triumphs, failures and struggles, all the while rooting for us and praying for us. 

With a correct view of the state of the glorified Saints and their role in the Church, most of the arguments against seeking their intercession simply dissolve. There's simply no good reason to cut the heavenly Saints off from the rest of the Body. You're surrounded by Heavenly witnesses who are supporting you in your spiritual race. What's more, they're your brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, by all means, ask for their spiritual help and encouragement!


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Other Christian; Prayer
KEYWORDS: prayer; prayerstosaints; praying; saints; venoration
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To: Eucharista; Elsie
The body of Christ is not a work.

Are you getting this out of the catechism of which you're supposedly certified in?

After your demonstrated lack of knowledge of the catechism your comments carry very little weight.

ealgeone: >>"And like how the creation days are viewed symbolically."<<

Eucharista: Please provide a citation because that is not Church teaching.

337 God himself created the visible world in all its richness, diversity and order. Scripture presents the work of the Creator symbolically as a succession of six days of divine "work",....

I don't bluff.

621 posted on 04/21/2015 7:27:44 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: ealgeone
I don't bluff.

I know. So, I fold.

G'night.
622 posted on 04/21/2015 7:31:09 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: Elsie
"Why does ROME presume they are not?"

Because "Rome" understands the nature of spiritual existence and that it is not constrained by the physical laws of this world.

623 posted on 04/21/2015 7:36:55 PM PDT by Eucharista
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To: Eucharista; Elsie
Because "Rome" understands the nature of spiritual existence and that it is not constrained by the physical laws of this world.

Perhaps it's symbolic....you know...as in the catechism of which you're certified in.

I don't bluff.

624 posted on 04/21/2015 7:43:32 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: Iscool
"Sorry but you can't get 'Catholic' out of that..."

...except that we did.

625 posted on 04/21/2015 7:48:17 PM PDT by Eucharista
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To: af_vet_1981; smvoice

.

>> “Concerning the Bereans, it was all about the evangelism of them by an apostle.” <<

.
Avoidance of reality!

According to Luke, Paul’s evangelism was the teaching of Torah and the prophets.

The Bereans, like Paul, had been taught Torah and the prophets in their synagogue all their lives. Paul’s teaching of Yeshua’s fulfillments is what they were verifying. Yeshua was new, the ancient Tanakh was old, and they were making sure he wasn’t twisting it.
.


626 posted on 04/21/2015 7:51:15 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Eucharista; Iscool

>> “except that we did.” <<

.
Serious mistake!


627 posted on 04/21/2015 7:52:40 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Resettozero

.
>> “She’s not answering my calls at present” <<

Technique!

You have to chant with beads...


628 posted on 04/21/2015 7:55:14 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor
"Serious mistake!"

Since we all still use the name Catholic, including you, it must be classified as "felix culpa".

629 posted on 04/21/2015 8:03:25 PM PDT by Eucharista
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To: rwa265
What you think you see and hear is not what is.

Oh yes it is...

For all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates, not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure.

There is no salvific influence of Mary who was blessed...

963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. . . . She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."502 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."503

That puts quite a weight on Mary's perceived role in your salvation...Apparently she's not only the mother of the redeemer who died on the Cross, she's the mother of God the Father as well...

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

As you can see your catechism claim all salvation comes thru Mary...

725 Finally, through Mary, the Holy Spirit begins to bring men, the objects of God's merciful love,107 into communion with Christ. And the humble are always the first to accept him: shepherds, magi, Simeon and Anna, the bride and groom at Cana, and the first disciples.

A Christian can almost get sick reading this junk

2677 Holy Mary, Mother of God: With Elizabeth we marvel, "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"36 Because she gives us Jesus, her son, Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: "Let it be to me according to your word."37 By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: "Thy will be done."

You are completely trusting Mary for your salvation...

Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death: By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the "Mother of Mercy," the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender "the hour of our death" wholly to her care. May she be there as she was at her son's death on the cross. May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing38 to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise.

After you are dead, Mary's going to lead you to Jesus...

1053 "We believe that the multitude of those gathered around Jesus and Mary in Paradise forms the Church of heaven, where in eternal blessedness they see God as he is and where they are also, to various degrees, associated with the holy angels in the divine governance exercised by Christ in glory, by interceding for us and helping our weakness by their fraternal concern" (Paul VI, CPG § 29).

So Mary shares the head of the Church with Jesus...And ridiculously, God stands off to the side...

That's a goddess if ever I saw one...

630 posted on 04/21/2015 8:15:01 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Religion Moderator

OK...Thanks for the reminder...


631 posted on 04/21/2015 8:23:52 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Mrs. Don-o
I have a hard time responding to this, because it seems to impute intentional falsehood to tens of billions of fellow-Christians over a period of almost 2,000 years -- of whom you could not possibly know such a thing.

Perhaps, you should take it up with Isaiah and Jesus who provided the warnings. I didn't impute intentional falsehood on all those Christians - I'm sure that many were sincere when reciting those words. My response was to your assertion that an earlier statement couldn't refer to the Catholic Church because your weekly recite - not all who state words necessarily believe them. Actions often reveal the unbelief in the words stated and reveal the hypocrisy present.

I'm not going to read a 1,400+ post thread to witness more word games. Why waste my time reading another analysis which tries to create a difference when there is no distinction?

632 posted on 04/21/2015 8:24:04 PM PDT by CommerceComet (Ignore the GOP-e. Cruz to victory in 2016.)
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To: ealgeone

LOL...


633 posted on 04/21/2015 8:27:28 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: editor-surveyor
The testimony of Polycarp is that Revelation was given to John in 91 AD.

Works for me...

634 posted on 04/21/2015 8:39:05 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Eucharista; Resettozero
"You are not the censor."

That will only be relevant if or when I post something worthy of censure.

Seeing as you've been banned on the same day as your arrival, I'd say that was a foregone conclusion.

635 posted on 04/21/2015 8:41:13 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: Eucharista
"Sorry but you can't get 'Catholic' out of that..."

...except that we did.

Well I guess you did...You get 'Catholic' out of a lot of things in scripture, which ain't there...LOL...

636 posted on 04/21/2015 8:41:22 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Elsie
Why you, you; you WHIPPERSNAPPER you!

LOL, roger that.

637 posted on 04/21/2015 9:12:09 PM PDT by Mark17 (Beyond the sunset, O blissful morning, when with our Savior, Heaven is begun. Earth's toiling ended)
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To: Iscool
In fact, it is that same ignorance of scripture which keeps Catholics from leaving your religion...

You are correct sir. When I got Bible educated, I left the Catholic Church, and there ain't no way I am ever going to swim the Tiber. Maranatha. 😃😀😄😱😇🙀

638 posted on 04/21/2015 9:41:36 PM PDT by Mark17 (Beyond the sunset, O blissful morning, when with our Savior, Heaven is begun. Earth's toiling ended)
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To: Iscool
In fact, it is that same ignorance of scripture which keeps Catholics from leaving your religion...

You are correct sir. When I got Bible educated, I left the Catholic Church, and there ain't no way I am ever going to swim the Tiber. Maranatha. 😃😀😄😱😇🙀

639 posted on 04/21/2015 9:44:03 PM PDT by Mark17 (Beyond the sunset, O blissful morning, when with our Savior, Heaven is begun. Earth's toiling ended)
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To: Elsie
...therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin ...

Poor ol' Joe.

Never DID get to have a REAL marriage.

Am I correct in assuming that all of Mary and Joseph's other children were delivered by the stork? Yes, poor old Joseph. He must have gotten tired of the 12 year old head ache routine.

640 posted on 04/21/2015 9:55:31 PM PDT by Mark17 (Beyond the sunset, O blissful morning, when with our Savior, Heaven is begun. Earth's toiling ended)
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