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Why Rome Can Only Appreciate, Rather than Prove the Immaculate Conception
Fallibility ^ | May 1, 2013 | Michael Taylor

Posted on 03/26/2015 11:36:04 AM PDT by RnMomof7

Why Rome Can Only Appreciate, Rather than Prove the Immaculate Conception

Should we believe something because we think it is true, or should we think something is true because we first believe?  For example, if you believe that extra-terrestrials have visited the earth, then you are likely to believe in UFO sightings and  alien abduction stories, and conspiracy theories about government coverups as confirmation of what you already believe.  This doesn’t mean that you believe that every UFO sighting or abduction story is real.  Nor does this mean that you buy into every conspiracy theory out there.  But if you are already inclined to believe in ETs (perhaps you or someone you trust has had a “close encounter” of some kind), then you are likely to view the “evidence” in a way that confirms what you already believe.

On the other hand, you may be skeptical, even if in principle you are open to the idea of extra-terrestrial life.  Perhaps you view the vastness of the universe as probability for the existence of intelligent life on another planet, but doubt that anyone has developed the technology that would enable interstellar travel.  In this case, UFO sightings, abduction stories and conspiracy theories probably won’t persuade you to change your mind, since there may be plausible alternative explanations for all of these alleged phenomena.

The question, then, is on what basis should you believe the claim that extra-terrestrials have visited planet Earth?  The only rational answer is to believe on the basis of credible evidence.  As Carl Sagan said it, “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.”

The same can be said of the claims of Christianity.  For example, take the claim “He is risen.”   This is an extraordinary claim, and no reasonable person ought to accept it without extraordinary proof.  That doesn’t mean we have to put our finger into the holes in Jesus’ hands in order to warrant belief.  But it does mean we need more than hearsay.  Providentially, we do have extraordinary evidence to back up this claim.  An empty tomb that was under guard, hundreds of eyewitnesses, an otherwise improbable and inexplicable growth of Christianity, and no alternative explanation that has any plausibility whatsoever.  In short, all the evidence points inescapably to one conclusion: Jesus of Nazareth died and rose again.

But what about the claim that Mary of Nazareth was conceived without sin?  This too is an extraordinary claim and so it too requires extraordinary proof.   But when we examine Scripture, we see no evidence that anyone thought Mary was conceived without sin nor any evidence that she was exempted from Adam’s curse.   While there are traditions about her sanctity from the womb and throughout her life, the church is mostly silent on the issue of her conception until the middle ages, and even then most theologians either didn’t see how it was possible for Mary to be conceived without sin or they outright denied it.  The list of those opposed to the doctrine reads like a Who’s Who of the medieval church:  Bernard of Clairvaux, Thomas Aquinas, Bonaventure, and Anselm of Canterbury, just to name a few.

But then in the early 1300s, two English Franciscans (William of Ware and Duns Scotus) came up with a way to overcome the objections that the doctrine was a “superstition” (so Bernard) or that it could not be reconciled with the uniqueness of Christ’s redemption (so Aquinas).  William used the argument from conveniens (Latin for “convenience”), which used the formula, potuit, decuit, fecit:  God could do it, it is fitting that He would do it, therefore He did do it.  Since Mary’s Immaculate Conception was both possible for God and fitting (on the grounds of the medieval supposition that never too much can be said of Mary), then it follows that God must have preserved Mary from contracting original sin, and so her conception was “immaculate” (stainless).

Scotus, for his part, theorized how God was able to preserve Mary from Original Sin without denying her need for redemption.  The eternal God, who sees all things as present,  must have applied the merits of the redemption to Mary before the redemption actually took place.  Thus Mary’s redemption was by exemption.  Instead of grace taking away the power of original sin after contracting it,  she was graced by not contracting it in the first place.

Without commenting on the merits (or demerits) of such arguments, take a step back and notice what is going on.  Despite the fact that Scripture and Tradition are at best silent on the issue, there is an undeniable desire on the part of many in the medieval church to believe in Mary's immaculate conception anyway.  How does this differ from the UFO enthusiast looking for reasons to justify his belief in ETs?  ETs could exist given the vastness of the universe, it is fitting that ETs would have visited Earth by now, given the age of the universe, therefore they did!  

Surely it is within God’s power to preserve someone from original sin; no one disputes this.  In fact, this would have been an extremely efficient way of redeeming the entire human race–not just Mary!  But to date, there is no evidence that God has preserved anyone from original sin, not even Mary. (Jesus being God cannot contract sin, and so was not “preserved” from it.)

Unless of course you count alleged supernatural events such as apparitions as evidence.  William of Ware put a lot of stock in the legend that Bernard of Clairvaux, soon after his death, appeared to a lay brother in a white garment with one small stain: his denial of the Immaculate Conception.   St. Bridget of Sweden (d. 1373) claimed that Mary appeared to her and personally confirmed the Immaculate Conception.  In 1830, just twenty-four years before the formal declaration of the Immaculate Conception as a must-believe dogma, St. Catherine Labouré claimed to have had a vision of Mary as the Immaculate Conception standing on the world with rays of light emanating from her hands to illuminate the earth.  The vision was framed with the words, “O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.”  This image is on the popular miraculous medal available at most Catholic kitsch stores.

Just as the medieval imagination was fertile ground for believing in visions as confirmation of doctrines, so the Romanticism of the late nineteenth century paved the way for sentiment to triumph over reason.  On December 8, 1854, after having consulted with 603 bishops (56 of whom dissented), Pope Pius IX issued the bull, Ineffabilis Deus, which formally (and infallibly) defined the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, and put the Catholic Church ® on a dogmatic  path of no return.  Not surprisingly, shortly after (1862) the definition a major Marian apparition took place that had the effect of confirming the doctrine in  pious imagination.  Near Lourdes in France, a girl of 14 named Bernadette Soubirous claimed that Mary appeared to her and said, “I am the Immaculate Conception.”  The miraculous healings that followed could only serve to confirm the already existing belief.

The parallel to belief in ETs  is instructive.  Since the dawn of the space age and the realization that the stars are within our grasp, there has been a corresponding increase in  UFO sightings, abduction stories and the like.  Movies, science fiction novels, T.V.,  and the occasional Roswell documentary have collectively helped to solidify belief in ETs for those who already believe in them and predispose others to the idea that there just might be some intelligent life “out there” after all.  When all of these phenomena are combined with a speculative theory that can explain how these phenomena might be possible, the result is fairly analogous to what has happened in Roman Catholicism with respect to Mary.  The major difference, of course, is that no one is required to believe in ETs.  But Roman Catholics are required to believe in the Immaculate Conception.  (And the theory that Mary was abducted into Heaven, also known as the dogma of the Assumption.)

When the Protestant reformers began to jettison longstanding beliefs and practices that were not in accord with scripture, they did so with the conviction that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and that only scripture could count as evidence that is extraordinary since only it is divinely inspired.   Tradition, reason and even experience could also be brought to bear as confirmation for what is already found in scripture. But they could not substitute for a clear foundation in scripture. Jesus and the apostles relied on scripture for that kind of extraordinary evidence, Protestants think it only prudent to do the same.  And so the process for accepting or rejecting a dogma of the church is rather straightforward.  Justify the belief before you believe in it, and don’t ask anyone to believe in it until you have.

Roman Catholicism has reversed this process any number of times throughout its history, especially since the Reformation,  and has gone on to dogmatize beliefs that have little to no basis in scripture and sometimes little to no basis in tradition.  Instead, Rome takes into consideration a hodgepodge of mutually reinforcing streams of “evidence,” such as liturgical practice, pious devotion, private revelations, the polling of bishops and speculative arguments about how “fitting” the doctrine is.  And if this isn’t enough, the matter can be settled definitively by an infallible papal decree, which means the doctrine must be held to be true simply by virtue of the fact that a pope intends to define the belief as a revealed dogma.

All too often in Roman Catholicism, the tail has wagged the dog–or dogma in this case.  Too often Rome has formally defined longstanding beliefs before it has produced good evidence for those beliefs.  Would it not be more prudent to first examine whether there was sufficient proof for those beliefs to begin with?

Having studied historical and systematic theology in a Pontifical school of theology, I have witnessed this dog-wagging process over and over again:  Begin first with the supposition that a belief is true (or at least accept the fact that you’re stuck with it), and then work backwards to find out how the belief came about in the first place and how it coheres with the rest of the content of the faith.  If you think the doctrine is defensible, all the better.  If you don’t, then try to salvage the doctrine by coming up with a more palatable interpretation.

For instance, Catholic theologian, Richard P. McBrien, says this of the Immaculate Conception:


The dogma of the Immaculate Conception teaches that Mary was exempt in a unique and exceptional way from the normal and the usual impact of sin, or, more positively, that she was given a greater degree of grace (i.e, God was more intensely present to her than to others) in view of her role as the “God-bearer.”  So profound is her union with God in grace, in anticipation of her maternal function and in virtue of the redemptive grace of Christ, that she alone remains faithful to God’s will throughout her entire life.  She is truly redeemed, but in an exceptional and unique manner.  The Immaculate Conception shows that God can be, and is utterly gracious toward us, not by reason of our merits but by reason of divine love and mercy alone (Richard P. McBrien, Catholicism, [San Francisco: Harper, 1994],  1101)

McBrien is widely regarded by conservative Catholics as a dissenter, and we can see why.  Although he claims to affirm the doctrine, he does so in a way that fails to affirm the traditional propositions of exemption from original sin and life long sinlessness.   Instead, he interprets the dogma as an example of God’s graciousness in redemption apart from our works, as if the original intention behind the doctrine were to affirm a more or less Protestant principle of sola gratia.

For McBrien, the Immaculate Conception really tells us more about God than it does about Mary.  In this way, the otherwise disagreeable aspects of the dogma are rendered innocuous and so, in good conscience, he can go about his merry way satisfied in the knowledge that the Immaculate Conception  is really “so much more” than a mere affirmation of Mary’s sinlessness.

I’d say this is fairly representative of how theology is done in many liberal Roman Catholic seminaries and theology schools.  Virtually no importance is given to the idea of testing whether or not the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church are true.  Some of my systematic theology classes reminded me of the music appreciation class I had as an undergraduate: Sit back, listen and “appreciate” how the doctrines of the church play together like a symphony.   When examined, I was not asked if I thought a belief was true or not; nor was I required to back up my beliefs with any kind of evidence.  That would have been too much like the scholasticism of a bygone era.   Instead, I was asked to name my favorite systematic theologians and articulate how they had integrated the dogmas of the church into their various systems.

In retrospect, I can see why Dogma Appreciation 101 was all my systematic theology courses could ever be.  Once a doctrine is formally defined by Rome, then the truth of the matter is moot.  Why argue against a doctrine if you’re stuck with it?  And why defend a doctrine that needs no defending?  The only recourse is to “appreciate” it.  If you happen to agree with the doctrine, all the better.  If you do not, then try to make it say something more to your liking.

Once you are a member of a denomination that believes itself to be incapable of teaching error in matters of faith or morals, then theology can only ever be an exercise in appreciating infallible truths.  There still may be room for “synthetic” efforts to articulate the dogmas of the church in an ever more fresh and meaningful way.  But there can be no room for any true “analytic” efforts to evaluate whether or not the dogmas of the church are still worth believing in light of the evidence, or as is more often the case, the lack thereof.

Live long and prosper.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: mary; salvation; sin; worship
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To: WVKayaker

I was able to make a great living (higher income than most),


So you sold your house in order to go to college to make a great living, that is fine but i can not see that it would have anything to do with selling what you have and laying it down at st Peter`s feet.

But, back to the larger question, it appears your backing goes to the RCC cult’s imagined findings within Scripture.>>>>>>>

No, that is not even a question and what I believe is not based on any thing catholic.

Why would Jesus have assigned John to care for his mother if she had other children?

Hahahahahaaaaa! I smell a troll! Have a nice day. I don’t need to comment further to you.>>>>>>

I can`t argue that point as I have never been to religious school so am not familiar with trolls.


81 posted on 03/27/2015 6:26:51 AM PDT by ravenwolf (s letters scripture.)
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To: RnMomof7

Mormons and Catholics proudly derive doctrine from sources other than the bible. This doctrine opposes that which is found in the bible. Whether it is God having a brother and a wife or God having a favorite female with divine powers it is the same error. Those of us who understand the Word of God “burn with indignation” when we see people caused to stumble.


82 posted on 03/27/2015 6:42:57 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (Is a Republican who won't call Obama a Muslim worthy of your vote?)
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To: NoCmpromiz

I do not question that Jesus was conceived when Mary was still a virgin. Most Christians agree on that point as it is written in the Gospel of Luke. But some Catholics believe that Mary was ALWAYS a virgin, that she and Joseph never consummated their marriage, even though there is not a shred of proof of this in the Bible or any other historical document for that matter. They WANT to believe she was eternal virgin no matter what. Even if means Mary and Joseph sleeping in separate bedrooms, although they were in fact a married couple and the New Testament has many references to Jesus’s bothers and sisters, most notably James. It’s all quite ridiculous when you think about it. I’ll stick with scripture and avoid making up yarns and tall tales if that’s OK.


83 posted on 03/27/2015 8:24:26 AM PDT by Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
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To: DungeonMaster
Mormons and Catholics proudly derive doctrine from sources other than the bible.

It sure seems that way!

84 posted on 03/27/2015 8:48:06 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
It sure seems that way!

Oh there's no question and they proudly mock people who don't.

85 posted on 03/27/2015 8:52:25 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (Is a Republican who won't call Obama a Muslim worthy of your vote?)
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To: Cap'n Crunch

I do know my faith:

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. During His ministry he preached about the Kingdom of God and he performed many miracles including curing the sick and disabled, raising people from the dead, walking on water, turning water into wine etc. He was crucified and rose on the third day. That IS my faith. I don’t make up things which aren’t there.


86 posted on 03/27/2015 9:09:03 AM PDT by Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
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To: ravenwolf

You could very well be right. But since Mary and Joseph were in fact a married couple, it is safe to assume they did what other married couples do. Our Lord commands us to be fruitful and multiply. Our Lord created Eve because he did not want Adam to be alone. Our Lord gave us the gift of physical intimacy between husband and wife. Why would that gift be denied to Mary and Joseph? For what reason? Keep in mind celibacy is the Church’s invention, not God’s plan. There is no such thing as Holy Celibacy. God wants us to celebrate life, not celibate life. Our Lord’s plan is for Holy Matrimony and to be fruitful and multiply. Physical intimacy between a husband and a wife is God’s great gift, to be denied to no one, certainly not denied to Mary and Joseph. Also keep in mind that the New Testament specifically permits a married clergy. I refer you to 1 Timothy 3:2. Read it.


87 posted on 03/27/2015 9:21:41 AM PDT by Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
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To: CynicalBear
John was listening to God the Holy Spirit. Your injection of an angel is immaterial.

With all due respect, FRiend... your answer, here, is sounding really confused. Does your Bible not have the following, as the very first line of the Book of Revelation?
"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, (Revelation 1:1)
You might also have missed the bits in Revelation 17:1, 17:7, 19:9, 21:9, 22:6, 22:8, and 22:16?

Certainly, the Holy Spirit is speaking--but THROUGH THE ANGEL(s), at least for a great deal of the time. That's my POINT. To draw some sort of artificial dichotomy between "God speaking" and "the [good] angel speaking" is as silly as would be an artificial distinction between "God speaking" and "the Church speaking"... which is precisely my point, re: your comment at #25 (and your even more odd comment at #45).

Does that clarify?
88 posted on 03/27/2015 9:37:59 AM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: knarf
A little redundancy there, eh?

:) If you like. I'll call it "emphasis." (To be completely pedantic: there's a difference between "hostile" [antipathy], "disingenuous" [deceptive, even if technically using true data], and "mendacious" [false, lying].)
89 posted on 03/27/2015 9:41:48 AM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: paladinan

So God speaking through a messenger isn’t God speaking? Are you serious?


90 posted on 03/27/2015 9:42:52 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: RnMomof7
They will not believe the greek because they choose not to.

(*sigh*) Do we really need to play the game of "count the fallacies" in that statement? To say such things is grossly self-serving and self-sealing. "There are none so blind as those who will not see!" Very, VERY easy to throw that sort of rhetoric at an opponent, no matter who he is, and no matter what he says, and no matter whether the "thrower" is right or wrong. Absolute balderdash.

To them grace is like gasoline..you either have a "full" tank or 1/2 tank or you are running on fumes.. So you run to the grace station for a fill up.. Pathetic but true.. some like daily fill ups..to keep the tank full some weekly refills and the majority run on fumes

With all due respect: what on earth are you talking about? That comment makes almost no sense at all.

[quotes of Luke 1:30 in the Greek]

All right. Now... can you explain the relevance of that comment, re: the topic in question, and how it supports your case?
91 posted on 03/27/2015 9:49:14 AM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: RnMomof7
[quote from Gill's exposition of the Entire Bible]

All right. Now... can you explain why Gill should be taken as authoritative, and where Scripture says that Gill's interpretation is the right one?
92 posted on 03/27/2015 9:50:37 AM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: RnMomof7
Scripture speaks of the other children, the siblings of Jesus . Reading the bible clears up questions like this

No one who's paying attention to the topic (and to the comments already given) could say such a thing reasonably. For instance: could you show me where Scripture uses the word "siblings" (or is that RnMomof7's word)? And can you show me where Scripture says that these are children of Mary, the Mother of Jesus (or is that RnMomof7's attempt to deduce a conclusion, above and beyond the text itself)? Chapter and verse, please... and, for the sake of brevity, please don't include mere repetition of references to "brethren, brothers, sisters, etc., of the Lord"... since the DEFINITION and INTERPRETATION of those terms is precisely what we're trying to discern, here.

As the saying goes: repeating an opinion does not make it a fact.
93 posted on 03/27/2015 9:55:27 AM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: WVKayaker; SpirituTuo
Hahahahahahaaaaaa! You don't belong to a church? Scripture tells us to "forsake not the assembling of yourselves..."!

It does... but it also has rather negative things to say about scoffers (Psalm 1, etc.), and Christians who mock other Christians (almost the entire Book of James). Just an idea to ponder. There were thousands of better ways to make a point, I think, than that.
94 posted on 03/27/2015 10:03:36 AM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines

You could very well be right. But since Mary and Joseph were in fact a married couple, it is safe to assume they did what other married couples do.


I don`t disagree with any thing you said, but for the simple reason I have already explained I believe Jesus was Mary`s only child.

I don`t believe Jesus would have appointed John to care for Mary if she had other children and I doubt if the other children would have went for it any way.

This would be rare today in a God believing family, there would be a fight.

It shows in John 7 that the brothers of Jesus did not see him as any authority and in fact indicates they may have thought they should have a little authority over him.

They don`t sound like little brothers to me as I had several big brothers and it don`t work that way.


95 posted on 03/27/2015 10:17:40 AM PDT by ravenwolf (s letters scripture.)
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To: NoCmpromiz
The phrase 'sola scriptura' is not found in the Bible. But then neither is the word 'Trinity'.

Right... but that wasn't my point. The very IDEA that "ONLY the Bible is to be used as the norm of Faith" is nowhere to be found in Scripture. Just for reference: my issue is not with "Scriptura"; it's with the word "SOLA" (i.e. "ONLY"). More, below.

Both concepts are however clearly taught.

The Trinity is clearly taught, albeit implicitly. "Sola Scriptura", however, is not taught in Scripture in any way, shape or form. The IMPORTANCE and NECESSITY of Scripture are *certainly* taught in Scripture... but that's a very different thing... and I'm afraid I've run into many Protestants who don't seem to understand the distinction between the two. (I think of that misunderstanding especially, after Protestants--including some on this very board--start quoting loads of Scriptures which cite and reference the AUTHORITY of the Scriptures, and the USEFULNESS of the Scriptures, and even the NECESSITY and DIVINE INSPIRATION of the Scriptures... which are all true, but completely beside the point, since I'm objecting to the SOLA part, and not the "Scriptura" part.) Does that shed some light, and does it respond a bit to your next part (re: the Bereans, etc.)?

Should anyone wish to say the Trinity is unbiblical, that is a discussion for another time.

:) No fear of that, from me!
96 posted on 03/27/2015 10:22:25 AM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: CynicalBear

Um... I think we have some reading comprehension issues, here. Please re-read my comment at #88, again, which flatly contradicts your question, here.


97 posted on 03/27/2015 10:24:52 AM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: paladinan

ROFLOL!!! The Catholic Church is NOT an angel from God nor do they speak for Him. Any organization that can’t differentiate between the god Muslims serve and the God of scripture can’t possibly be of on true God.


98 posted on 03/27/2015 10:30:27 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: ravenwolf

You should believe as you choose. However, I choose to believe that which the Church proposes for belief.

Those teachings include the perpetual virginity of Mary, as well as Jesus being an only child.

The notions that Mary was not a perpetual virgin, as well as additional children (step or otherwise), were around and refuted in the 8th century.

However, some seem to think a re-hash is novel, as is their interpretation. Neither of which is true.


99 posted on 03/27/2015 10:37:41 AM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: paladinan
"Sola Scriptura", however, is not taught in Scripture in any way, shape or form.

And that statement would be in error. Again your attention is directed to the passage in Acts, which you skirted in your response, since it is both Scripture AND tradition which holds equal weight to some.

When the Apostle Paul - the 'Church Authority' - spoke to the Bereans what did they do to verify that what the Apostle Paul - the 'Church Authority' - said was true?

Seems they searched the Scripture for verification.

Do you verify from Scripture all the pronouncements of Church Authorities today and if not, why not since the example is there both by Scripture and Tradition.

100 posted on 03/27/2015 10:39:54 AM PDT by NoCmpromiz (John 14:6 is a non-pluralistic comment.)
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