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Why Rome Can Only Appreciate, Rather than Prove the Immaculate Conception
Fallibility ^ | May 1, 2013 | Michael Taylor

Posted on 03/26/2015 11:36:04 AM PDT by RnMomof7

Why Rome Can Only Appreciate, Rather than Prove the Immaculate Conception

Should we believe something because we think it is true, or should we think something is true because we first believe?  For example, if you believe that extra-terrestrials have visited the earth, then you are likely to believe in UFO sightings and  alien abduction stories, and conspiracy theories about government coverups as confirmation of what you already believe.  This doesn’t mean that you believe that every UFO sighting or abduction story is real.  Nor does this mean that you buy into every conspiracy theory out there.  But if you are already inclined to believe in ETs (perhaps you or someone you trust has had a “close encounter” of some kind), then you are likely to view the “evidence” in a way that confirms what you already believe.

On the other hand, you may be skeptical, even if in principle you are open to the idea of extra-terrestrial life.  Perhaps you view the vastness of the universe as probability for the existence of intelligent life on another planet, but doubt that anyone has developed the technology that would enable interstellar travel.  In this case, UFO sightings, abduction stories and conspiracy theories probably won’t persuade you to change your mind, since there may be plausible alternative explanations for all of these alleged phenomena.

The question, then, is on what basis should you believe the claim that extra-terrestrials have visited planet Earth?  The only rational answer is to believe on the basis of credible evidence.  As Carl Sagan said it, “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.”

The same can be said of the claims of Christianity.  For example, take the claim “He is risen.”   This is an extraordinary claim, and no reasonable person ought to accept it without extraordinary proof.  That doesn’t mean we have to put our finger into the holes in Jesus’ hands in order to warrant belief.  But it does mean we need more than hearsay.  Providentially, we do have extraordinary evidence to back up this claim.  An empty tomb that was under guard, hundreds of eyewitnesses, an otherwise improbable and inexplicable growth of Christianity, and no alternative explanation that has any plausibility whatsoever.  In short, all the evidence points inescapably to one conclusion: Jesus of Nazareth died and rose again.

But what about the claim that Mary of Nazareth was conceived without sin?  This too is an extraordinary claim and so it too requires extraordinary proof.   But when we examine Scripture, we see no evidence that anyone thought Mary was conceived without sin nor any evidence that she was exempted from Adam’s curse.   While there are traditions about her sanctity from the womb and throughout her life, the church is mostly silent on the issue of her conception until the middle ages, and even then most theologians either didn’t see how it was possible for Mary to be conceived without sin or they outright denied it.  The list of those opposed to the doctrine reads like a Who’s Who of the medieval church:  Bernard of Clairvaux, Thomas Aquinas, Bonaventure, and Anselm of Canterbury, just to name a few.

But then in the early 1300s, two English Franciscans (William of Ware and Duns Scotus) came up with a way to overcome the objections that the doctrine was a “superstition” (so Bernard) or that it could not be reconciled with the uniqueness of Christ’s redemption (so Aquinas).  William used the argument from conveniens (Latin for “convenience”), which used the formula, potuit, decuit, fecit:  God could do it, it is fitting that He would do it, therefore He did do it.  Since Mary’s Immaculate Conception was both possible for God and fitting (on the grounds of the medieval supposition that never too much can be said of Mary), then it follows that God must have preserved Mary from contracting original sin, and so her conception was “immaculate” (stainless).

Scotus, for his part, theorized how God was able to preserve Mary from Original Sin without denying her need for redemption.  The eternal God, who sees all things as present,  must have applied the merits of the redemption to Mary before the redemption actually took place.  Thus Mary’s redemption was by exemption.  Instead of grace taking away the power of original sin after contracting it,  she was graced by not contracting it in the first place.

Without commenting on the merits (or demerits) of such arguments, take a step back and notice what is going on.  Despite the fact that Scripture and Tradition are at best silent on the issue, there is an undeniable desire on the part of many in the medieval church to believe in Mary's immaculate conception anyway.  How does this differ from the UFO enthusiast looking for reasons to justify his belief in ETs?  ETs could exist given the vastness of the universe, it is fitting that ETs would have visited Earth by now, given the age of the universe, therefore they did!  

Surely it is within God’s power to preserve someone from original sin; no one disputes this.  In fact, this would have been an extremely efficient way of redeeming the entire human race–not just Mary!  But to date, there is no evidence that God has preserved anyone from original sin, not even Mary. (Jesus being God cannot contract sin, and so was not “preserved” from it.)

Unless of course you count alleged supernatural events such as apparitions as evidence.  William of Ware put a lot of stock in the legend that Bernard of Clairvaux, soon after his death, appeared to a lay brother in a white garment with one small stain: his denial of the Immaculate Conception.   St. Bridget of Sweden (d. 1373) claimed that Mary appeared to her and personally confirmed the Immaculate Conception.  In 1830, just twenty-four years before the formal declaration of the Immaculate Conception as a must-believe dogma, St. Catherine Labouré claimed to have had a vision of Mary as the Immaculate Conception standing on the world with rays of light emanating from her hands to illuminate the earth.  The vision was framed with the words, “O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.”  This image is on the popular miraculous medal available at most Catholic kitsch stores.

Just as the medieval imagination was fertile ground for believing in visions as confirmation of doctrines, so the Romanticism of the late nineteenth century paved the way for sentiment to triumph over reason.  On December 8, 1854, after having consulted with 603 bishops (56 of whom dissented), Pope Pius IX issued the bull, Ineffabilis Deus, which formally (and infallibly) defined the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, and put the Catholic Church ® on a dogmatic  path of no return.  Not surprisingly, shortly after (1862) the definition a major Marian apparition took place that had the effect of confirming the doctrine in  pious imagination.  Near Lourdes in France, a girl of 14 named Bernadette Soubirous claimed that Mary appeared to her and said, “I am the Immaculate Conception.”  The miraculous healings that followed could only serve to confirm the already existing belief.

The parallel to belief in ETs  is instructive.  Since the dawn of the space age and the realization that the stars are within our grasp, there has been a corresponding increase in  UFO sightings, abduction stories and the like.  Movies, science fiction novels, T.V.,  and the occasional Roswell documentary have collectively helped to solidify belief in ETs for those who already believe in them and predispose others to the idea that there just might be some intelligent life “out there” after all.  When all of these phenomena are combined with a speculative theory that can explain how these phenomena might be possible, the result is fairly analogous to what has happened in Roman Catholicism with respect to Mary.  The major difference, of course, is that no one is required to believe in ETs.  But Roman Catholics are required to believe in the Immaculate Conception.  (And the theory that Mary was abducted into Heaven, also known as the dogma of the Assumption.)

When the Protestant reformers began to jettison longstanding beliefs and practices that were not in accord with scripture, they did so with the conviction that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and that only scripture could count as evidence that is extraordinary since only it is divinely inspired.   Tradition, reason and even experience could also be brought to bear as confirmation for what is already found in scripture. But they could not substitute for a clear foundation in scripture. Jesus and the apostles relied on scripture for that kind of extraordinary evidence, Protestants think it only prudent to do the same.  And so the process for accepting or rejecting a dogma of the church is rather straightforward.  Justify the belief before you believe in it, and don’t ask anyone to believe in it until you have.

Roman Catholicism has reversed this process any number of times throughout its history, especially since the Reformation,  and has gone on to dogmatize beliefs that have little to no basis in scripture and sometimes little to no basis in tradition.  Instead, Rome takes into consideration a hodgepodge of mutually reinforcing streams of “evidence,” such as liturgical practice, pious devotion, private revelations, the polling of bishops and speculative arguments about how “fitting” the doctrine is.  And if this isn’t enough, the matter can be settled definitively by an infallible papal decree, which means the doctrine must be held to be true simply by virtue of the fact that a pope intends to define the belief as a revealed dogma.

All too often in Roman Catholicism, the tail has wagged the dog–or dogma in this case.  Too often Rome has formally defined longstanding beliefs before it has produced good evidence for those beliefs.  Would it not be more prudent to first examine whether there was sufficient proof for those beliefs to begin with?

Having studied historical and systematic theology in a Pontifical school of theology, I have witnessed this dog-wagging process over and over again:  Begin first with the supposition that a belief is true (or at least accept the fact that you’re stuck with it), and then work backwards to find out how the belief came about in the first place and how it coheres with the rest of the content of the faith.  If you think the doctrine is defensible, all the better.  If you don’t, then try to salvage the doctrine by coming up with a more palatable interpretation.

For instance, Catholic theologian, Richard P. McBrien, says this of the Immaculate Conception:


The dogma of the Immaculate Conception teaches that Mary was exempt in a unique and exceptional way from the normal and the usual impact of sin, or, more positively, that she was given a greater degree of grace (i.e, God was more intensely present to her than to others) in view of her role as the “God-bearer.”  So profound is her union with God in grace, in anticipation of her maternal function and in virtue of the redemptive grace of Christ, that she alone remains faithful to God’s will throughout her entire life.  She is truly redeemed, but in an exceptional and unique manner.  The Immaculate Conception shows that God can be, and is utterly gracious toward us, not by reason of our merits but by reason of divine love and mercy alone (Richard P. McBrien, Catholicism, [San Francisco: Harper, 1994],  1101)

McBrien is widely regarded by conservative Catholics as a dissenter, and we can see why.  Although he claims to affirm the doctrine, he does so in a way that fails to affirm the traditional propositions of exemption from original sin and life long sinlessness.   Instead, he interprets the dogma as an example of God’s graciousness in redemption apart from our works, as if the original intention behind the doctrine were to affirm a more or less Protestant principle of sola gratia.

For McBrien, the Immaculate Conception really tells us more about God than it does about Mary.  In this way, the otherwise disagreeable aspects of the dogma are rendered innocuous and so, in good conscience, he can go about his merry way satisfied in the knowledge that the Immaculate Conception  is really “so much more” than a mere affirmation of Mary’s sinlessness.

I’d say this is fairly representative of how theology is done in many liberal Roman Catholic seminaries and theology schools.  Virtually no importance is given to the idea of testing whether or not the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church are true.  Some of my systematic theology classes reminded me of the music appreciation class I had as an undergraduate: Sit back, listen and “appreciate” how the doctrines of the church play together like a symphony.   When examined, I was not asked if I thought a belief was true or not; nor was I required to back up my beliefs with any kind of evidence.  That would have been too much like the scholasticism of a bygone era.   Instead, I was asked to name my favorite systematic theologians and articulate how they had integrated the dogmas of the church into their various systems.

In retrospect, I can see why Dogma Appreciation 101 was all my systematic theology courses could ever be.  Once a doctrine is formally defined by Rome, then the truth of the matter is moot.  Why argue against a doctrine if you’re stuck with it?  And why defend a doctrine that needs no defending?  The only recourse is to “appreciate” it.  If you happen to agree with the doctrine, all the better.  If you do not, then try to make it say something more to your liking.

Once you are a member of a denomination that believes itself to be incapable of teaching error in matters of faith or morals, then theology can only ever be an exercise in appreciating infallible truths.  There still may be room for “synthetic” efforts to articulate the dogmas of the church in an ever more fresh and meaningful way.  But there can be no room for any true “analytic” efforts to evaluate whether or not the dogmas of the church are still worth believing in light of the evidence, or as is more often the case, the lack thereof.

Live long and prosper.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: mary; salvation; sin; worship
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To: SpirituTuo

It is certainly your choice to believe as you wish, but if the priest said what he said, he was in error.


It is my understanding that the priest just read the scripture and since he did not dispute it was taken for agreeing that Mary had other Children.

Just sounds like an honest priest to me and does not mean that he believed Mary had other children but only that Jesus had brothers and sisters, not the same thing.


61 posted on 03/26/2015 3:42:21 PM PDT by ravenwolf (s letters scripture.)
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To: ravenwolf; Elsie; CynicalBear; metmom
It makes more sense they were step brothers since they were not Mary`s Children.

Sorry, but I believe they were Mary's children. People may feel free to believe whatever they like, but that is what I believe. I guess we will all know for sure, when Gabriel blows his horn, won't we?

62 posted on 03/26/2015 4:09:17 PM PDT by Mark17 (Beyond the sunset, O blissful morning, when with our Savior, Heaven is begun. Earth's toiling ended)
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To: paladinan; CynicalBear
They will not believe the greek because they choose not to. To them grace is like gasoline..you either have a "full" tank or 1/2 tank or you are running on fumes..

So you run to the grace station for a fill up..

Pathetic but true.. some like daily fill ups..to keep the tank full some weekly refills and the majority run on fumes

1:30 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ ἄγγελος αὐτῇ Μὴ φοβοῦ Μαριάμ εὗρες γὰρ χάριν παρὰ τῷ θεῷ

1:30  καὶ εἶπεν ἄγγελος αὐτῇ Μὴ φοβοῦ Μαριάμ εὗρες γὰρ χάριν παρὰ τῷ θεῷ

Textus Receptus

InterlinearReverse Interlinear
English (KJV)   [?] Strong's Root Form (Greek) Parsing
 

And

 

g2532   

καί kai

 

the angel

g32   

ἄγγελος aggelos

 

said

 

g2036   

εἶπον eipon

unto her,

g846   

αὐτός autos

 

Fear

 

g5399   

φοβέω phobeō

not,

 

g3361   

μή

 

Mary:

 

g3137   

Μαρία Maria

 

for

 

g1063   

γάρ gar

 

thou hast found

g2147   

εὑρίσκω heuriskō

favour

 

g5485   

χάρις charis

 

with

 

g3844   

παρά para

 

God.

 

g2316   

θεός theos

 

1:30  καὶ εἶπεν ἄγγελος αὐτῇ μὴ φοβοῦ Μαριάμ εὗρες γὰρ χάριν παρὰ τῷ θεῷ

Morphological GNT


63 posted on 03/26/2015 4:33:07 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible

And the angel came in unto her,.... Into her house, and into the room where she was:

and said, hail; all health, happiness, and prosperity attend thee; Matthew 28:9.

thou art highly favoured; or graciously accepted, or hast obtained grace; not referring to electing, redeeming; justifying, pardoning, adopting, and sanctifying grace, which she had in common with other saints; but to that special and particular favour, in being chosen and singled out from all other women, to be the mother of the Messiah:

the Lord is with thee; so the angel to Gideon, Judges 6:12 or “be with thee”, an usual form of salutation among the Jews; Ruth 2:4.

thou art blessed among women; and will be pronounced so by other women, as she was by Elisabeth, Luke 1:42 and by another woman, Luke 11:27.


64 posted on 03/26/2015 4:35:53 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Sasparilla
It is all about faith in something much bigger than yourself.

The church ...foolish

65 posted on 03/26/2015 4:48:25 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: ex-snook
I believe Jesus was Mary’s only child. Jesus went to Jerusalem and stayed there until Mary and Joseph returned and hear him speaking. Jesus returned with them and was subject to them. No one else is mentioned. Mary is at the Cross. No other family mentioned. It is a fiction to now read into the life of Jesus that he had sibling. That is what I believe. Others won’t convince me otherwise.

Scripture speaks of the other children, the siblings of Jesus . Reading the bible clears up questions like this

66 posted on 03/26/2015 4:51:27 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: WVKayaker
Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
67 posted on 03/26/2015 4:52:44 PM PDT by jobim
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To: RnMomof7; Salvation

“The church, foolish.” Thats your “belief, and thats fine. You know what mine is and disagree. Thats OK too. You can always go to a bar and contemplate the bubbles in your beer instead.


68 posted on 03/26/2015 4:57:29 PM PDT by Sasparilla (If you want peace, prepare for war.)
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To: ravenwolf

Would it be honest for a pharmacist to give you a bottle of pills with no instructions? Pretty dangerous actually. The pills might do you great good, but if you take too many, not enough, at the wrong time, without food, or take it with an antagonist, it may be downright deadly.

For a priest to not teach what is prescribed by the Church, especially dogmatic teachings, is at best, negligent.

Any person may think He had literal brothers and sisters, but that is not the teaching of the Church.


69 posted on 03/26/2015 5:08:08 PM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: SpirituTuo

One last thing, this and any other thread on Catholic dogma isn’t presenting a single new argument.

Instead, it is a trotting out of long since discredited arguments, misconceptions, and factual errors.

Does anybody think that the oldest organization in the world can be sustained if built on error? 2000 years is a long time for arguments to be made, studied, debated, and resolved.

Oh, and another thing, the Catholic Church and its human leader are recognized globally. The authority of the Church is well-known. Ask just about anybody who the head of the Church is, and the will say the Pope. Ask where he lives, they will say Rome (because they may not understand Vatican City).

The Catholic Church is one, holy, catholic and apostolic. It has been that way since founded by Jesus Himself. Argue all you wish, make any number of claims, but in the end, the fullness of Christian faith is held and taught by the Catholic Church.


70 posted on 03/26/2015 5:25:01 PM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines

I am a loyal and faithful Catholic who practices my faith.

Dude, you don’t even know your faith. Typical of so many salad bar Catholics today, they don’t know their faith yet they get on some website and bad-mouth it.


71 posted on 03/26/2015 6:05:24 PM PDT by Cap'n Crunch
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To: jobim; Elsie; Mark17

Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
......

It’s sad that most of those members of the Roman Catholic cult insist beseeching dead people to take care of them. It is inconsistent with Scripture, as they are repeatedly instructed, along with the appropriate references.

They must wear some heavy duty blinders.


72 posted on 03/26/2015 6:40:07 PM PDT by WVKayaker (Impeachment is the Constitution's answer for a derelict, incompetent president! -Sarah Palin 7/26/14)
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To: SpirituTuo

Any person may think He had literal brothers and sisters, but that is not the teaching of the Church.


That is why I do not belong to a Church as I think the Bible is what should be taught.

I see no place in the scripture which even hints that Mary had other children so I do not see any point in acting like it does by denying it unless some one asks.

It was common then and now to call step brothers :brothers.


73 posted on 03/26/2015 7:47:43 PM PDT by ravenwolf (s letters scripture.)
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To: Mark17

I guess we will all know for sure, when Gabriel blows his horn, won’t we?


That is for sure.


74 posted on 03/26/2015 8:03:03 PM PDT by ravenwolf (s letters scripture.)
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To: ravenwolf; SpirituTuo
I see no place in the scripture which even hints that Mary had other children...

Hahahahahahaaaaaa!

You don't belong to a church? Scripture tells us to "forsake not the assembling of yourselves..."!

I see no place in the scripture which even hints that Mary DID NOT other children, and though twisting and turning those beloved Bible verses, you can (try to) make the case for anything! Case in point is the topic of this thread!

Mary and Joseph had relations after Jesus was born, because Scripture tells us "he knew her not until..."! . Scripture tells us that! Mary was not sterile, and it is not unusual to have large families. After all, when returning from one trip, they did not realize Jesus had stayed back and was TEACHING in the Synagogue. How can you lose a child of 12 years old?

It's simple. There were probably lots of THEIR other children, and a 12 yr old was almost a man. Mary likely had her hands full with Jesus' younger siblings.

But, specifically, we see NOTHING in Scripture that gives credence to the assumption of the RCC cult about her being without sin and childless, except for Jesus. We see NOTHING in Scripture that would lend itself to all of the Mariology we see evident in the modern RCC cult, nor in the historical record of Christianity.

...The view that these brothers were the cousins of Jesus on Joseph's side is based on pure conjecture. That they were cousins on Mary's side is based on the unproved identity of "Mary, the wife of Cleophus" with the sister of Mary (John 19:25; Mark 15:40), and on the unproved identity of "Clopas" with Alphaeus (Mark 3:18).

Jesus' siblings are mentioned as accompanying Jesus and his mother to Capernaum after the marriage at Cana (John 2:12). Later Mary and these brothers are recorded as seeking an audience with Jesus (Matthew 12:46-50; Mark 3:31-35; Luke 8:19-21). Toward the end of Jesus' ministry, His brethren are mentioned as urging Jesus to prove His Messiahship, which they themselves doubted (John 7:3-5). That they were later converted is clear, for they are described in Acts as uniting with the disciples and others in "prayer and supplication" prior to Pentecost (Acts 1:13-14). Paul implies that they were all married (1 Corinthians 9:5).

Many commentators hold that the author of the epistle of Jude, who identifies himself as the "brother of James," was one of these brothers (Jude 1). It is also generally believed that the leader of the church at Jerusalem was James, the Lord's brother (see Acts 12:17; 15:13). This seems to be confirmed by Paul's reference to his visit to Jerusalem, in which he states that he saw only Peter, and "James, the Lord's brother" (Galatians 1:18-19). -BibleInfo.com

75 posted on 03/26/2015 8:42:49 PM PDT by WVKayaker (Impeachment is the Constitution's answer for a derelict, incompetent president! -Sarah Palin 7/26/14)
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To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
I am a loyal and faithful Catholic who practices my faith. (No need to paste in the remainder..)

May I be allowed to comment to you? (I'm sure others will reply both to you and to me, but I reply to you based on this post.)

I have a partner in a ministry who just happens to be Roman Catholic. After over 10 years of this association (and many conversations) I am firmly convinced that I have more in common with my RC partner than I do with many protestants considering that a significant percentage of main line denominations are sprinting to Gomorrah and more.

Theologically, why is it necessary for Jesus, God the Son and Son of God to have been born of a virgin sans contribution of human semen? The answer entails another question - through whom was the sin of Adam passed? Answer - the male. Anyone born of normal human sexual relations was born in sin, call it sin nature, original sin, or whatever theological term you want. In the garden, man did not become fallen until Adam (who was the covenant carrier) ate the fruit..

When Adam broke the covenant, all his seed 'died'. (Remember that the covenant is passed father to son so with Adam's fall, he passed on that covenant to all his seed.) Thus, if Jesus was conceived in normal fashion He too would have been a sinner. It was necessary for a virgin birth bypassing the human male seed to produce a non-sin-stained child. It was not necessary for Mary to have been conceived without original sin to enable her to bring forth her Son born without the sin-curse. Mary was not the covenant-carrier..

Second point.. In the lineage of kingship, the right to the throne passes to the kings first born. We see in Matthew's genealogy that Jesus through his earthly father Joseph (from whom he would have inherited any birthright to the throne of David - mothers do not pass on birthrights) was by virtue of 'father' Joseph in the direct line of the kings of Judah. For Jesus to be the rightful heir to the throne He would of necessity need to be Joseph's first-born, not Mary's first born since the kingly decent passes from the male. Short conclusion, Joseph could not have had previous sons or Jesus would have had no claim to the throne. (Joseph could have had daughters from a previous marriage, but once he had a son, those daughters, if any, were no longer throne contenders.)

There is a slight catch to that lineage, for if Jesus were a seed son of Joseph, even being the first born, He could not have ascended the throne of David. (It has to do with Jeremiah and King Jehoiachin (Jeconiah) - compare Jeremiah 22:30 and Matthew 1:12 and you will see why). There is a reason why Matthew included Jeconiah in the genealogy though because it's important.

For Jesus to be rightful king of Judah and also be Messiah he had to be a son of David in direct kingly descent and also a son of David apart from Jeconiah's line. That's why Luke's genealogy is important in that it establishes the Davidic descent of Jesus from David through Mary while the virgin birth assures that the Child was born without the Adamic sin curse or the curse on Jeconiah. Thus Jesus has both genealogical claim to the throne as Joseph's 'son' and also has right of both Kingship and Messiah-ship as a descendant of David not touched by the curse on Jeconiah.

It is unfortunate that ofer the centuries since themanger in Bethlehem a whole lot of stuff with no basis in Scripture has been brought into the discussion and transmogrified into dogma. It is true that the early church did call Mary 'Mother of God'. This seems to have first surfaced in refutation of the heresy of Arius (which is still propagated by certain door-knockers who come around with their small g god, their torture stake, a vaporous resurrection and want to sell you some kind of tower). From there it expanded until today we see that Mary has become god - in some peoples estimation...

I know you were not addressing me in your original post so I trust I haven't offended you by butting in. Now I'll butt out and catch up on the rest of the thread.. ;-)

76 posted on 03/26/2015 9:18:10 PM PDT by NoCmpromiz (John 14:6 is a non-pluralistic comment.)
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To: paladinan
Listen to the premise behind your statement: "if it isn't in the Bible, it can't be true or worthy of belief"... which is an unbiblical idea, since the Bible doesn't teach "sola Scriptura" ANYWHERE.

The phrase 'sola scriptura' is not found in the Bible. But then neither is the word 'Trinity'. Both concepts are however clearly taught. Should anyone wish to say the Trinity is unbiblical, that is a discussion for another time..

In the case of 'sola scriptura' it is demonstrable from both Holy Writ AND church tradition that the italicized statement is in error... It seems that some have need to familiarize themselves with the Bereans. Recorded in the Bible (and thus the inspired, inerrant Word of God) and since it is the Book of the Acts of the Apostles, it is also Church Tradition (held by some to be of equal weight with Scripture), this sure seems to indicate that to at least the Bereans, even if not to the Church now, it being in the Bible WAS important.

For your convenience here is the passage with the applicable part highlighted: "Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, who received the word with all eagerness, daily searching the scriptures, whether these things were so." (Douay)

It is interesting that I see the use of the term 'unBiblical' to denigrate something that clearly IS taught in Holy writ in a screed defending teachings that are in actuality unBiblical...

Comments above reflect the author's personal opinion based on the references stated. Your mileage may vary.

77 posted on 03/26/2015 9:56:20 PM PDT by NoCmpromiz (John 14:6 is a non-pluralistic comment.)
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To: WVKayaker

His brethren are mentioned as urging Jesus to prove His Messiahship, which they themselves doubted (John 7:3-5).


Which indicates they were older than Jesus.

Many commentators hold that the author of the epistle of Jude, who identifies himself as the “brother of James,” was one of these brothers (Jude 1).


If he was a brother to Jesus why would``nt he say so?

We are just arguing about assumptions on both sides, but my main one is that if the ones called the brothers and sisters were Mary`s Children Jesus would not have appointed John to care for Mary.

Hahahahahahaaaaaa!
You don’t belong to a church? Scripture tells us to “forsake not the assembling of yourselves...”!


You should read what the early Christians did to belong to the Church, they sold what they had and laid it at the apostles feet didn’t they? did you do that? Hahahahahahaaaaaa.


78 posted on 03/26/2015 11:19:52 PM PDT by ravenwolf (s letters scripture.)
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To: ravenwolf; Elsie
they sold what they had and laid it at the apostles feet didn’t they? did you do that? Hahahahahahaaaaaa.

Actually, yes, I did something similar to that! In 1976, I sold my house, and most of our possessions, and moved my wife and two young children to Lima, NY, where I attended Elim Bible Institute (college). It was my intention to go into the mission field in Brazil. Some things happened which changed that, but in the end, my walk with God was strengthened.

But, unlike Ananias and Sapphire, I didn't tell everybody a lie. Since those days, God blessed me in astounding ways. I was able to make a great living (higher income than most), and have established two schools and a hospital in the African (Muslim) country of Burkina Faso. They were furnished with CHRISTIAN materials and many found Christ as a result of being part of that. It is now an area where the radical Muzzies (ISIS) are expanding, and I fear for those people. I pray for them (without ceasing, thanks to His Holy Spirit indwelling me!).

But, back to the larger question, it appears your backing goes to the RCC cult's imagined findings within Scripture.

Do you also have Urim and Thummin in your house? Joe Smith would love to meet you (but, oh yeah, he's dead, too!)

Hahahahahaaaaa! I smell a troll! Have a nice day. I don't need to comment further to you.


79 posted on 03/26/2015 11:48:28 PM PDT by WVKayaker (Impeachment is the Constitution's answer for a derelict, incompetent president! -Sarah Palin 7/26/14)
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To: NoCmpromiz
In the case of 'sola scriptura' it is demonstrable from both Holy Writ AND church tradition that the italicized statement is in error...

I've asked, countless times, for Catholics to post all of the stuff in the BIBLE that applies to TRADITION; after I've posted what will follow here.

They never seem to get around to it...




Oh well...



NIV Matthew 2:5
"In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written:

NIV Matthew 4:1-11
1. Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.
2. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.
3. The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
4. Jesus answered, "It is written: `Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "
5. Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
6. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "`He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "
7. Jesus answered him, "It is also written: `Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "
8. Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
9. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."
10. Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: `Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' "
11. Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

NIV Matthew 11:10
This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

NIV Matthew 21:13
"It is written," he said to them, "`My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a `den of robbers.' "

NIV Matthew 26:24
The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him.

NIV Matthew 26:31
Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'

NIV Mark 7:6-7
6. He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: "`These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
7. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'

NIV Mark 9:11-13
11. And they asked him, "Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"
12. Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things. Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected?
13. But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him."

NIV Mark 11:17
And as he taught them, he said, "Is it not written: "`My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations' ? But you have made it `a den of robbers.' "

NIV Mark 14:27
"You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.'

NIV Luke 1:1-4
1. Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us,
2. just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.
3. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,
4. so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

NIV Luke 4:17-19
17. The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18. "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,
19. to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

NIV Luke 7:27
This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

NIV Luke 10:26
"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

NIV Luke 18:31-33
31. Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.
32. He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him.
33. On the third day he will rise again."

NIV Luke 20:17-18
17. Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written: "`The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ' ?
18. Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

NIV Luke 21:22
For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

NIV Luke 22:37
It is written: `And he was numbered with the transgressors' ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

NIV Luke 24:44-47
44. He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
45. Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
46. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,
47. and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

NIV John 2:17
His disciples remembered that it is written: "Zeal for your house will consume me."
 
NIV John 6:31
Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: `He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' "

NIV John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: `They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

NIV John 12:14-16
14. Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written,
15. "Do not be afraid, O Daughter of Zion; see, your king is coming, seated on a donkey's colt."
16. At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him.

NIV John 15:25
But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: `They hated me without reason.'

NIV John 20:30-31
30. Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.
31. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

NIV Acts 1:20
"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms, "`May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, "`May another take his place of leadership.'

NIV Acts 7:42
But God turned away and gave them over to the worship of the heavenly bodies. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets: "`Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings forty years in the desert, O house of Israel?

NIV Acts 13:29
When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb.

NIV Acts 13:32-33
32. "We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers
33. he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: "`You are my Son; today I have become your Father. '

NIV Acts 15:15-18
15. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16. "`After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it,
17. that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'
18. that have been known for ages.

NIV Acts 23:5
Paul replied, "Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: `Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.' "

NIV Acts 24:14
However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,
and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

NIV Romans 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

NIV Romans 2:24
As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

NIV Romans 3:4
Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."

NIV Romans 3:10-12
10. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
11. there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
12. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

NIV Romans 4:17
As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

NIV Romans 4:23-24
23. The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone,
24. but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

NIV Romans 8:36
As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."

NIV Romans 9:13
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

NIV Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

NIV Romans 10:15
And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

NIV Romans 11:7-10
7. What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,
8. as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."
9. And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."

NIV Romans 11:26-27
26. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

NIV Romans 12:19
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

NIV Romans 14:11
It is written: "`As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'"

NIV Romans 15:3-4
3. For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me."
4. For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

NIV Romans 15:7-12
7. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.
8. For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs
9. so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written: "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing hymns to your name."
10. Again, it says, "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."
11. And again, "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and sing praises to him, all you peoples."
12. And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him."

NIV Romans 15:21
Rather, as it is written: "Those who were not told about him will see, and those who have not heard will understand."

NIV 1 Corinthians 1:19
For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

NIV 1 Corinthians 1:31
Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

NIV 1 Corinthians 2:9
However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" --

NIV 1 Corinthians 3:19-20
19. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness" ;
20. and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."

NIV 1 Corinthians 4:6
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

NIV 1 Corinthians 9:9
For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned?

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:7
Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry."

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:11
These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

NIV 1 Corinthians 14:21
In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

NIV 2 Corinthians 1:13-14
13. For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that,
14. as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus.

NIV 2 Corinthians 4:13-14
13. it is written: "I believed; therefore I have spoken." With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak,
14. because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence.

NIV 2 Corinthians 8:15
as it is written: "He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little."

NIV Galatians 3:10
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

NIV Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

NIV Galatians 4:22
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.

NIV Galatians 4:27
For it is written: "Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband."

NIV Hebrews 10:7
Then I said, `Here I am-- it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.'"

NIV 1 Peter 1:15-16
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

NIV 2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

NIV 1 John 2:12-14
12. I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
13. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, dear children, because you have known the Father.
14. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God lives in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

80 posted on 03/27/2015 5:05:00 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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