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Why Rome Can Only Appreciate, Rather than Prove the Immaculate Conception
Fallibility ^ | May 1, 2013 | Michael Taylor

Posted on 03/26/2015 11:36:04 AM PDT by RnMomof7

Why Rome Can Only Appreciate, Rather than Prove the Immaculate Conception

Should we believe something because we think it is true, or should we think something is true because we first believe?  For example, if you believe that extra-terrestrials have visited the earth, then you are likely to believe in UFO sightings and  alien abduction stories, and conspiracy theories about government coverups as confirmation of what you already believe.  This doesn’t mean that you believe that every UFO sighting or abduction story is real.  Nor does this mean that you buy into every conspiracy theory out there.  But if you are already inclined to believe in ETs (perhaps you or someone you trust has had a “close encounter” of some kind), then you are likely to view the “evidence” in a way that confirms what you already believe.

On the other hand, you may be skeptical, even if in principle you are open to the idea of extra-terrestrial life.  Perhaps you view the vastness of the universe as probability for the existence of intelligent life on another planet, but doubt that anyone has developed the technology that would enable interstellar travel.  In this case, UFO sightings, abduction stories and conspiracy theories probably won’t persuade you to change your mind, since there may be plausible alternative explanations for all of these alleged phenomena.

The question, then, is on what basis should you believe the claim that extra-terrestrials have visited planet Earth?  The only rational answer is to believe on the basis of credible evidence.  As Carl Sagan said it, “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.”

The same can be said of the claims of Christianity.  For example, take the claim “He is risen.”   This is an extraordinary claim, and no reasonable person ought to accept it without extraordinary proof.  That doesn’t mean we have to put our finger into the holes in Jesus’ hands in order to warrant belief.  But it does mean we need more than hearsay.  Providentially, we do have extraordinary evidence to back up this claim.  An empty tomb that was under guard, hundreds of eyewitnesses, an otherwise improbable and inexplicable growth of Christianity, and no alternative explanation that has any plausibility whatsoever.  In short, all the evidence points inescapably to one conclusion: Jesus of Nazareth died and rose again.

But what about the claim that Mary of Nazareth was conceived without sin?  This too is an extraordinary claim and so it too requires extraordinary proof.   But when we examine Scripture, we see no evidence that anyone thought Mary was conceived without sin nor any evidence that she was exempted from Adam’s curse.   While there are traditions about her sanctity from the womb and throughout her life, the church is mostly silent on the issue of her conception until the middle ages, and even then most theologians either didn’t see how it was possible for Mary to be conceived without sin or they outright denied it.  The list of those opposed to the doctrine reads like a Who’s Who of the medieval church:  Bernard of Clairvaux, Thomas Aquinas, Bonaventure, and Anselm of Canterbury, just to name a few.

But then in the early 1300s, two English Franciscans (William of Ware and Duns Scotus) came up with a way to overcome the objections that the doctrine was a “superstition” (so Bernard) or that it could not be reconciled with the uniqueness of Christ’s redemption (so Aquinas).  William used the argument from conveniens (Latin for “convenience”), which used the formula, potuit, decuit, fecit:  God could do it, it is fitting that He would do it, therefore He did do it.  Since Mary’s Immaculate Conception was both possible for God and fitting (on the grounds of the medieval supposition that never too much can be said of Mary), then it follows that God must have preserved Mary from contracting original sin, and so her conception was “immaculate” (stainless).

Scotus, for his part, theorized how God was able to preserve Mary from Original Sin without denying her need for redemption.  The eternal God, who sees all things as present,  must have applied the merits of the redemption to Mary before the redemption actually took place.  Thus Mary’s redemption was by exemption.  Instead of grace taking away the power of original sin after contracting it,  she was graced by not contracting it in the first place.

Without commenting on the merits (or demerits) of such arguments, take a step back and notice what is going on.  Despite the fact that Scripture and Tradition are at best silent on the issue, there is an undeniable desire on the part of many in the medieval church to believe in Mary's immaculate conception anyway.  How does this differ from the UFO enthusiast looking for reasons to justify his belief in ETs?  ETs could exist given the vastness of the universe, it is fitting that ETs would have visited Earth by now, given the age of the universe, therefore they did!  

Surely it is within God’s power to preserve someone from original sin; no one disputes this.  In fact, this would have been an extremely efficient way of redeeming the entire human race–not just Mary!  But to date, there is no evidence that God has preserved anyone from original sin, not even Mary. (Jesus being God cannot contract sin, and so was not “preserved” from it.)

Unless of course you count alleged supernatural events such as apparitions as evidence.  William of Ware put a lot of stock in the legend that Bernard of Clairvaux, soon after his death, appeared to a lay brother in a white garment with one small stain: his denial of the Immaculate Conception.   St. Bridget of Sweden (d. 1373) claimed that Mary appeared to her and personally confirmed the Immaculate Conception.  In 1830, just twenty-four years before the formal declaration of the Immaculate Conception as a must-believe dogma, St. Catherine Labouré claimed to have had a vision of Mary as the Immaculate Conception standing on the world with rays of light emanating from her hands to illuminate the earth.  The vision was framed with the words, “O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.”  This image is on the popular miraculous medal available at most Catholic kitsch stores.

Just as the medieval imagination was fertile ground for believing in visions as confirmation of doctrines, so the Romanticism of the late nineteenth century paved the way for sentiment to triumph over reason.  On December 8, 1854, after having consulted with 603 bishops (56 of whom dissented), Pope Pius IX issued the bull, Ineffabilis Deus, which formally (and infallibly) defined the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, and put the Catholic Church ® on a dogmatic  path of no return.  Not surprisingly, shortly after (1862) the definition a major Marian apparition took place that had the effect of confirming the doctrine in  pious imagination.  Near Lourdes in France, a girl of 14 named Bernadette Soubirous claimed that Mary appeared to her and said, “I am the Immaculate Conception.”  The miraculous healings that followed could only serve to confirm the already existing belief.

The parallel to belief in ETs  is instructive.  Since the dawn of the space age and the realization that the stars are within our grasp, there has been a corresponding increase in  UFO sightings, abduction stories and the like.  Movies, science fiction novels, T.V.,  and the occasional Roswell documentary have collectively helped to solidify belief in ETs for those who already believe in them and predispose others to the idea that there just might be some intelligent life “out there” after all.  When all of these phenomena are combined with a speculative theory that can explain how these phenomena might be possible, the result is fairly analogous to what has happened in Roman Catholicism with respect to Mary.  The major difference, of course, is that no one is required to believe in ETs.  But Roman Catholics are required to believe in the Immaculate Conception.  (And the theory that Mary was abducted into Heaven, also known as the dogma of the Assumption.)

When the Protestant reformers began to jettison longstanding beliefs and practices that were not in accord with scripture, they did so with the conviction that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and that only scripture could count as evidence that is extraordinary since only it is divinely inspired.   Tradition, reason and even experience could also be brought to bear as confirmation for what is already found in scripture. But they could not substitute for a clear foundation in scripture. Jesus and the apostles relied on scripture for that kind of extraordinary evidence, Protestants think it only prudent to do the same.  And so the process for accepting or rejecting a dogma of the church is rather straightforward.  Justify the belief before you believe in it, and don’t ask anyone to believe in it until you have.

Roman Catholicism has reversed this process any number of times throughout its history, especially since the Reformation,  and has gone on to dogmatize beliefs that have little to no basis in scripture and sometimes little to no basis in tradition.  Instead, Rome takes into consideration a hodgepodge of mutually reinforcing streams of “evidence,” such as liturgical practice, pious devotion, private revelations, the polling of bishops and speculative arguments about how “fitting” the doctrine is.  And if this isn’t enough, the matter can be settled definitively by an infallible papal decree, which means the doctrine must be held to be true simply by virtue of the fact that a pope intends to define the belief as a revealed dogma.

All too often in Roman Catholicism, the tail has wagged the dog–or dogma in this case.  Too often Rome has formally defined longstanding beliefs before it has produced good evidence for those beliefs.  Would it not be more prudent to first examine whether there was sufficient proof for those beliefs to begin with?

Having studied historical and systematic theology in a Pontifical school of theology, I have witnessed this dog-wagging process over and over again:  Begin first with the supposition that a belief is true (or at least accept the fact that you’re stuck with it), and then work backwards to find out how the belief came about in the first place and how it coheres with the rest of the content of the faith.  If you think the doctrine is defensible, all the better.  If you don’t, then try to salvage the doctrine by coming up with a more palatable interpretation.

For instance, Catholic theologian, Richard P. McBrien, says this of the Immaculate Conception:


The dogma of the Immaculate Conception teaches that Mary was exempt in a unique and exceptional way from the normal and the usual impact of sin, or, more positively, that she was given a greater degree of grace (i.e, God was more intensely present to her than to others) in view of her role as the “God-bearer.”  So profound is her union with God in grace, in anticipation of her maternal function and in virtue of the redemptive grace of Christ, that she alone remains faithful to God’s will throughout her entire life.  She is truly redeemed, but in an exceptional and unique manner.  The Immaculate Conception shows that God can be, and is utterly gracious toward us, not by reason of our merits but by reason of divine love and mercy alone (Richard P. McBrien, Catholicism, [San Francisco: Harper, 1994],  1101)

McBrien is widely regarded by conservative Catholics as a dissenter, and we can see why.  Although he claims to affirm the doctrine, he does so in a way that fails to affirm the traditional propositions of exemption from original sin and life long sinlessness.   Instead, he interprets the dogma as an example of God’s graciousness in redemption apart from our works, as if the original intention behind the doctrine were to affirm a more or less Protestant principle of sola gratia.

For McBrien, the Immaculate Conception really tells us more about God than it does about Mary.  In this way, the otherwise disagreeable aspects of the dogma are rendered innocuous and so, in good conscience, he can go about his merry way satisfied in the knowledge that the Immaculate Conception  is really “so much more” than a mere affirmation of Mary’s sinlessness.

I’d say this is fairly representative of how theology is done in many liberal Roman Catholic seminaries and theology schools.  Virtually no importance is given to the idea of testing whether or not the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church are true.  Some of my systematic theology classes reminded me of the music appreciation class I had as an undergraduate: Sit back, listen and “appreciate” how the doctrines of the church play together like a symphony.   When examined, I was not asked if I thought a belief was true or not; nor was I required to back up my beliefs with any kind of evidence.  That would have been too much like the scholasticism of a bygone era.   Instead, I was asked to name my favorite systematic theologians and articulate how they had integrated the dogmas of the church into their various systems.

In retrospect, I can see why Dogma Appreciation 101 was all my systematic theology courses could ever be.  Once a doctrine is formally defined by Rome, then the truth of the matter is moot.  Why argue against a doctrine if you’re stuck with it?  And why defend a doctrine that needs no defending?  The only recourse is to “appreciate” it.  If you happen to agree with the doctrine, all the better.  If you do not, then try to make it say something more to your liking.

Once you are a member of a denomination that believes itself to be incapable of teaching error in matters of faith or morals, then theology can only ever be an exercise in appreciating infallible truths.  There still may be room for “synthetic” efforts to articulate the dogmas of the church in an ever more fresh and meaningful way.  But there can be no room for any true “analytic” efforts to evaluate whether or not the dogmas of the church are still worth believing in light of the evidence, or as is more often the case, the lack thereof.

Live long and prosper.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: mary; salvation; sin; worship
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To: WVKayaker

You are suffering a logical fallacy. Just because it doesn’t say Mary had no other children is NOT proof she did.

The remainder of your cut and paste were refuted centuries ago. I would be happy to include my own cut and paste, demonstrating a position contrary to yours.

Again, this argument is an ancient heresy.


101 posted on 03/27/2015 10:40:20 AM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: ravenwolf

OK. I see your POV. Obviously we are talking about events that occurred over 2000 years ago, long before there was TV, radio, the modern day news media, internet, and other forms of modern communication. I simply assume that because Mary and Joseph were a married couple, they did the same things as other married couples do. Hard for me to imagine Joseph as a passive wallflower standing alone in a corner somewhere and sleeping in a separate bedroom. I get the impression it was a close and loving marriage. I have no problem believing the marriage was consummated after Jesus was born. I don’t know why others do.


102 posted on 03/27/2015 10:45:52 AM PDT by Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
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To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines

Especially since God created sex as a gift to be enjoyed by a married couple.

There are Scriptural mandates to take care of in other in that manner. To do otherwise would be sinful.


103 posted on 03/27/2015 10:56:48 AM PDT by Gamecock ("The Christian who has stopped repenting has stopped growing." A.W. Pink)
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To: SpirituTuo

The notions that Mary was not a perpetual virgin, as well as additional children (step or otherwise), were around and refuted in the 8th century.


Not sure what you are saying but if Jesus had step brothers Mary would have had step Children.

But I do believe Jesus was her only child.

As for the perpetual virginity I have no idea.

Actually I do not choose to believe anything, I just see it the way I see it.


104 posted on 03/27/2015 11:15:41 AM PDT by ravenwolf (s letters scripture.)
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To: Gamecock

Thanks so much for your kind words. More of a wine drinker than a beer drinker these days . Goes hand in hand with my service as a Eucharistic Minister at my church.


105 posted on 03/27/2015 11:17:20 AM PDT by Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
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To: ravenwolf

The teaching of the Catholic Church is that there were no step children, or natural children, except for Jesus.


106 posted on 03/27/2015 11:21:46 AM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines

I have no problem believing the marriage was consummated after Jesus was born. I don’t know why others do.


I am getting too close to eighty for comfort and if I had a 16 year old virgin bride she would not be sleeping by her self if I had anything to say about it, but there would be no children and that is a fact.

I don`t know how old Joseph was but he is not mentioned after Jesus turned twelve was he? so this is something we can only guess at.


107 posted on 03/27/2015 11:24:40 AM PDT by ravenwolf (s letters scripture.)
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To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines

OK, we’ll do wine!


108 posted on 03/27/2015 11:25:37 AM PDT by Gamecock ("The Christian who has stopped repenting has stopped growing." A.W. Pink)
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To: ravenwolf

All true of course. We know next to nothing about Joseph. Little is said of him in the Bible just as little is said of Jesus’s childhood and early youth. Much more is known of contemporary Jewish society and family structure at that time. People were expected to be married and produce children. That was the norm, that was what expected. Priests in the Bible too, were married men with families. That was expected, that was the norm. You were considered an outcast if you were single, unless you had a contagious disease, such as leprosy and were excluded from the general population.


109 posted on 03/27/2015 11:40:55 AM PDT by Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
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To: SpirituTuo

The teaching of the Catholic Church is that there were no step children, or natural children, except for Jesus.


I can not say I know they are wrong but even the Catholic Bible, the Douay-Rheims calls them brethren and sisters, so I don`t see how it can be proven if they were cousins or step brothers and sisters.

It appears to me that the Catholics are so determined to prove the perpetual virginity theory and the protestants are determined to prove other wise, no scripture is even considered except to try to prove a point which the other side ignores .

It has got to the point that if Mary had only one child or not has nothing to do with it except to prove one side right and the other side wrong.


110 posted on 03/27/2015 12:00:07 PM PDT by ravenwolf (s letters scripture.)
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To: ravenwolf

I can understand you point of view. However, the rejection of the Marian doctrine ultimately deny Christ.

If someone truly understand the Marian doctrines and rejects them, they will be rejecting Christ in His humanity and in His Divinity.

That said, many people don’t understand the Marian doctrines and their importance. For many, there is a superficial understanding. This incomplete understanding leads to disagreement, etc.


111 posted on 03/27/2015 12:12:23 PM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines

That was expected, that was the norm.


That is true, bishops were to be the husband of one wife a man who could rule his house well.

1 tim 3
4 He must manage his own household well, keeping his children submissive and respectful in every way;


112 posted on 03/27/2015 12:15:09 PM PDT by ravenwolf (s letters scripture.)
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To: ravenwolf

Yes precisely. In point of fact St. Paul thoroughly outlines a full job description for service in the clergy:

“This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of bishop, he desireth good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach. Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre, but patient, not a brawler, not covetous. One that ruleth his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity. For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God? Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.”

1 Timothy 3:1-7

So there you have it. It doesn’t get any clearer than this. The full and complete job description for service in the clergy from St. Paul. Why would anyone want to change it?


113 posted on 03/27/2015 12:28:21 PM PDT by Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
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To: SpirituTuo

If someone truly understand the Marian doctrines and rejects them, they will be rejecting Christ in His humanity and in His Divinity.


I have some problem accepting plain scripture if it is interpreted by some one who wants to make a religion out of it.

And this is not to bash the Catholic belief but I have not saw a hint of Marian doctrines in the scriptures.


114 posted on 03/27/2015 12:36:49 PM PDT by ravenwolf (s letters scripture.)
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To: SpirituTuo

If someone truly understand the Marian doctrines and rejects them, they will be rejecting Christ in His humanity and in His Divinity.


I have some problem accepting plain scripture if it is interpreted by some one who wants to make a religion out of it.

Mary shall be called blessed, that is scriptural but not sure about counting beads and the likes.


115 posted on 03/27/2015 12:50:55 PM PDT by ravenwolf (s letters scripture.)
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To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines

So there you have it. It doesn’t get any clearer than this.


That is why I am not a deacon or Bishop.


116 posted on 03/27/2015 12:55:09 PM PDT by ravenwolf (s letters scripture.)
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To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines

No, no you don’t. The things you mocked are easy to research for “loyal and faithful” Catholics. If you think those things are “made up” you don’t belong in the Catholic Church and you certainly don’t know the Faith.


117 posted on 03/27/2015 1:33:00 PM PDT by Cap'n Crunch
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To: paladinan
THIS;

"This forum, on the other hand, has a paucity of such noble souls among the Protestant population, and it has a startlingly large population of anti-Catholic-Church Protestants whose commentary ranges from the hostile to the disingenuous to the mendacious;"

Was is the reason I chose redundancy

But I see I was mistaken ... you equate them both the same.

Gonn'a go start my pepper pots, now .... Last week of march

118 posted on 03/27/2015 2:02:15 PM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
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To: SpirituTuo
You are suffering a logical fallacy. ... Again, this argument is an ancient heresy.

the Roman Catholic cult has taken that to an extreme and the heresy is in the inconsistent UNScriptural claims of Rome!

The refutations that you may paste can only come from within the cult's logic (illogic!)! Scripture does not refute it! Your entire cult is based on assumption and as we all know you can break down "assume"...

119 posted on 03/27/2015 2:05:12 PM PDT by WVKayaker (Impeachment is the Constitution's answer for a derelict, incompetent president! -Sarah Palin 7/26/14)
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To: ravenwolf

I appreciate your point of view and your amiable delivery!

My response would be that Scripture isn’t plain (2Peter 3:16). Consider how many different interpretations are given by non-Catholics on John 6, and why it doesn’t mean what it says.

Since I am not learned in ancient Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, or the original languages of the books of the Bible, I have to rely not only upon an interpreter, but also those who can fully explain the meaning of the different books, and their context.

This is not to diminish anybody reading the Bible, hardly. Many great truths can come of a “plain” reading. However, many of the truths are far deeper. A simple example would be the Trinity. That word is never used, but the concept is, on several occasions.

Finally, it was the Catholic Church who decided, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the canon of Scripture. While the Old Testament was already in use, the books of the New Testament came AFTER the organization of the Church.


120 posted on 03/27/2015 2:08:30 PM PDT by SpirituTuo
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