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Rejecting Mariology
Two-Edged Sword ^ | February 05, 2007 | Lee

Posted on 03/23/2015 2:14:57 PM PDT by RnMomof7

It is often claimed the Mary was heralded by the Patristics as a woman full of grace, perhaps sinless, and deserving our veneration above other departed saints as the Mother of the Church. This is not the case. While I do freely admit that the word Patristic can be used to cover a variety of ages, I prefer to use it to the pre-nicaean leaders of the church. Let us start with them, and we can move on from there.

In the Apostolic Fathers, as the first century leaders are often called, one sees little to no mention of Mary at all. Clement of Rome leaves her out of his epistle completely. This is a glaring omission for ‘Mary full of grace’ since Clement’s entire letter is about submission, faith, and peace. Clement uses as examples of Christian living Paul, Peter, Moses, Abraham, David, and several martyrs in addition to Jesus Christ. Beyond that he even uses a few women as examples. Rahab gets the most ink as a wonderful example of faith, two women killed by Nero are mentioned, Esther get a paragraph, as does Judith from the Apocrypha. But no Mary. First century writers seem to view Mary as a good believer, but nothing more, much like Protestants today.

Second century writers turn up the first exaltation references to Mary, but even these are over stated. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian all try to draw Mary as the anti-type of Eve as Jesus was of Adam. This leads to some grandiose statements about Mary, but the ancient mind often thought more typologically and allegorically then we do today. These men did not have any allusions about Mary being above sin (original or actual). In fact Irenaeus condemns Mary as a sinner for her role in the Wedding of Cana arguing that Jesus rebukes her for her presumptuous pride. Tertullian along with other second century leaders like Origen and later writers like Basil the Great and Chrysostom (4th century) all ascribe to Mary the sins of maternal vanity, anxiety, and doubt and state that the ‘sword’ that pierces Mary’s soul in Luke 2:35 are these sins. Hardly a high view of Mary despite their typological attempts.

The rise of Mary really follows the rise of Monasticism and the encroachment of Neo-platonism into Christianity. The third and fourth centuries see apocryphal texts like the Gospel of the birth of Mary, which were all condemned by the church as a whole, but eventually the teachings of these books would be folded into the Mariology of the Roman church. The asceticism of the monastic orders arising from their neo-platonic view of the flesh exalted Mary as the ultimate example and claimed for her perpetual virginity. This helped give their life-style a bigger backing as well as giving them a patron saint.

The controversies of the 5th century about Christ led to Mary being the Mother of God as a test of orthodoxy. Mother of God was not meant to convey anything at all about Mary, but rather something about the natures of Jesus. However, it would come to be twisted to elevate Mary into something higher than merely human. The first person to actually advocate Mary did not have any actual or original sin was Pelegius, the free-will opponent of Augustine. During this time also one must remember that Rome was destroyed by the uneducated and pagan barbarians. As the centers of learning were destroyed the educated clergy could no longer restrain phrases like ‘Mother of God’ and Mariology became Marialotry took on a life of its own as the masses carried Mary to extremes she was never meant to reach. By the time of Gregory the Great, Bishop of Rome, Mary was installed in her current position for the Roman church. Gregory freely instructed his missionaries to the barbarians not to destroy pagan temples, but rename them and the statues in them. Many pagan temples were to women, and Mary worship was well on its way.

Thus, I do not think Protestantism needs a Mariology at all. Mary is a wonderful example of saintly piety and faith as are many people in the Bible. She should not be avoided for she is the mother of our Lord. But we must remember, as I believe the Reformed tradition does, she is simply one of his disciples no better than any other believer in Christ. This is, after all, exactly what our Lord teaches in Matthew 12:47-50.

‘Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.’



TOPICS: Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian
KEYWORDS: christ; mary; worship
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To: jobim

HAC is a lot less wordy than my name for them: Westboro Wing of the Free Republic Evangelical Dispensationlist Caucus of the Free Repubulic Religious Forum.


81 posted on 03/23/2015 6:00:02 PM PDT by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: Salvation
Those are her last words in the Bible. Do you do whatever her Son says?

I try, but RCs manifest do not, but follow inventions of men , and disobey 1Cor. 4:6 in thinking of mortals above that which is written.

82 posted on 03/23/2015 6:15:41 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: paladinan; CynicalBear
The modern meaning of the word "worship" is what used to be meant by the word "adoration"

The Bible describes worship, and its descriptions, which is more than bowing, indict Catholics as idolators.

One would have a hard time in Bible times explaining kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, even with adulation, attributes, glory and titles never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers addressed to them, and beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them.

Which would constitute worship in Scripture, yet Catholics imagine by playing word games they avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship.

Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?

They should do what Mary and every believer in every prayer to Heaven did (and I should do more of), which was to pray directly to the Lord, not secretaries. But they must truly become born again for that.

Instead Caths basically say,

As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes... (Jeremiah 44:16-17)

83 posted on 03/23/2015 6:21:31 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Elsie
Foster Father of the Savior; Patron of the Universal Church


84 posted on 03/23/2015 6:32:56 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Seriously.)
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To: paladinan; CynicalBear
Ask yourself. Why not one word about Mary after Pentecost?

In the Bible, you mean? I ask, because Protestants have a tendency to ignore Church history

That is an error, as Church history, which important, is not the inspired word of God and the standard for Truth, and what history actually reveals is the progressive deformation of the visible church, even if not negating the continuity of the body of Christ.

when it isn't in the 66-book fragment which Protestants call "the Bible".

So you also believe the fabrication that the Prot. 66 does not have antiquity, and that the larger canon was all settled until a maverick named Luther dissented from this infallible canon?

85 posted on 03/23/2015 6:33:43 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Elsie

Don’t you know the word means nothing to catholics in these situations....they’d rather rely upon the “tradition” that nobody has a written record of for these matters.


86 posted on 03/23/2015 6:34:47 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: RaceBannon; metmom; knarf; RnMomof7
no, Mary gave birth to several children according to the Bible

You are correct sir. Two of Mary and Joseph's natural children, James and Jude, conceived through, dare I say it? Normal human reproduction, otherwise known as sex. Both wrote books in the New Testsment, called, of all things, James and Jude. James, being the leader of the Jerusalem Church, not Peter.

87 posted on 03/23/2015 6:36:32 PM PDT by Mark17 (Beyond the sunset, O blissful morning, when with our Savior, Heaven is begun. O glorious dawning)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

And that woman is Israel....


88 posted on 03/23/2015 6:41:20 PM PDT by Mom MD
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To: daniel1212; paladinan; RnMomof7; sparklite2; RaceBannon; knarf; NYer; Salvation
Remind me again why catholics need Jesus.....

•as Scripture declares that Christ suffered for our sins, so Mary is said to have done so also;

•as Christ saves us from the condemnation and death resulting from the fault of Adam, so it is taught that man was condemned through the fault of Eve, the root of death, but that we are saved through the merits of Mary; who was the source of life for everyone.

•as the Lord was bodily ascended into Heaven, so Mary also was;

•as Christ is given all power in heaven and in earth, so Mary is “surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven.”


89 posted on 03/23/2015 6:43:36 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: Mom MD

Yes indeed: it’s one of those multivalent symbols so typical of Biblical prophecy:: Israel, Mary, the Church. Daughter Zion, Blessed Mother, Lady Ecclesia.


90 posted on 03/23/2015 6:43:37 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Seriously.)
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To: Elsie; jobim
You illustrate why I don't write to you hardened anti-Catholics (HAC), but only to fellow Catholics, perhaps weak in their faith or going through tough times.

It's one of two things Elsie...actually both.

1) You've won the argument when the names start coming out

2) the poster is likely a dimocrat and like all dimocrats the names start coming out when they're losing the argument or they try to shift the topic of conversation.

91 posted on 03/23/2015 6:46:26 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: CynicalBear

You have proof of her death?


92 posted on 03/23/2015 6:46:52 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
And... a particular favorite...

`


93 posted on 03/23/2015 6:47:55 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Seriously.)
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To: paladinan

Mary’s name is not mentioned once in Revelation.

That claim is not valid as it cannot be supported by Scripture.


94 posted on 03/23/2015 6:49:08 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; Elsie
Christ her Son is King of Kings; that makes her Queen Mother by relationship alone.

Then Paul and Peter must be princes in the kingdom???

This business of trying to equate earthly realms to those of Heaven must really stop. It's quite embarrassing.

Other than catholic "tradition" and a lot of gee it sounds nice, it must be and it stands to reason.....do you have any Scriptural support for this. And keep it in context.

Please, no more one verse theology.

95 posted on 03/23/2015 6:51:10 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: Salvation; RaceBannon

That is elevating obedience to Mary above obedience to Jesus.

Obey Jesus becuause Mary said so?

Really?


96 posted on 03/23/2015 6:51:23 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Salvation

Additionally, those words were spoken to the servants at the wedding, not the church as a whole.


97 posted on 03/23/2015 6:52:34 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: metmom

Mind reading again?


98 posted on 03/23/2015 6:52:49 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: RnMomof7
Amazing how the catholics run when the light exposes their false doctrines.

None can post a reply to counter these Biblical positions.

99 posted on 03/23/2015 6:53:14 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: Mrs. Don-o
he Catholic Church does not offer Mary "Latria" (LINK) We give her "Hypedulia", which means, the highest honor given to a human person, which is entirely due to what God her Savior has done for Mary, a lowly handmaid. Luke 1 should pretty much clear that up.

Rather then being clear, this fine defining line is contrary to what Scripture does to define worship, in which no one but idolators, as said, would be found kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world with adulation, attributes, glory and titles never given in Scripture to created beings, including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers addressed to them, and beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them.

100 posted on 03/23/2015 7:02:13 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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