[daniel1212]

he Catholic Church does not offer Mary "Latria" (LINK) We give her "Hypedulia", which means, the highest honor given to a human person, which is entirely due to what God her Savior has done for Mary, a lowly handmaid. Luke 1 should pretty much clear that up.

Rather then being clear, this fine defining line is contrary to what Scripture does to define worship, in which no one but idolators, as said, would be found kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world with adulation, attributes, glory and titles never given in Scripture to created beings, including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers addressed to them, and beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them.

[Mrs. Don-o]

If you wish to use words accurately, then, please refrain from using the words "worship," "adore," and words related to "latria" (such as "idolatry"). Instead, direct your critique to the practices of honor and intercession, dulia and hyperdulia, in relation to the Saints such as Mary. It would show a necessary understanding for how we define, develop, and, yes, limit our own customs of honor, and, I think make the discussion more productive.

With that in mind, you can still make all the points you just made, but more accurately. :o)

Let me address the question of bowing and kneeling, because if I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that those are gestures of latria,, not, properly speaking, dulia.

Here’s where the confusion comes in. What’s forbidden is offering a creature gestures (bowing, kneeling, prostrating, or whatever) of adoration; not we are not forbidden those same gestures or postures as a sign of honor or respect.

Can I show that Biblically? Sure. It permeates Old Testament culture.

I looked up “kneel(ing)” and “bow(ing)” in the good old BibleGateway Keyword Search, and found so many references it would be exhausting to list them all. Genesis 23:7 Then Abraham rose and bowed down before the people of that land

Genesis 33:3-7 Jacob bowed down to the ground seven times ("seven" is Biblically used as symbolic number indicating completion and perfection) as he approached his brother Esau

maidservants and their children bow down to Esau; Leah and her children bow; Joseph and Rachel bow;

Genesis 37 Joseph’s dreams: his brothers’ sheaves of corn -— and then the sun and moon and eleven stars —— bow down to him. Later his brothers actually do bow down to him with their faces to the ground (another sign of absolute subjection or submission);

Genesis 48:11 Joseph bows to Jacob “with his face to the earth”;

1 Kings 1:15 Bathsheba bows low (face to the ground) and kneels before the aged king David

2 Kings 1:13 the captain kneels before the prophet Elijah, and "prays" —begs-— him to spare his life and the life of his 50 men

Moses bows down to father-in-law; Ruth bows down to Boaz; David prostrates before Jonathan; David prostrates to Saul; Abigail prostrates to David; Saul prostrates to Samuel; Nathan prostrates to David; Obadiah bows to the ground before Elijah; the prophets in Jericho bow before Elisha; the “whole assembly” bows low and prostrates before David;

David bows to the Temple (a place); the sons of the oppressors will bow to Zion (a place); David prostrates to Jerusalem (another place);

God causes the king’s adversaries to bow prostrate on the ground and “lick the dust at his feet”.

OK, pretty obviously the patriarchs, prophets, and kings knew about the commandment not to bow down and worship anything or anybody but God. But here they are bowing, kneeling, and prostrating, and God is not offended. Why?

Because the commandment clearly forbids bowing and adoring a creature as the Creator; it does not forbid kneeling or bowing (to king, prophet, father, husband or brother) as a form of honor.

The commandment does not prohibit kneeling or bowing to give honor. It prohibits adoration toward anyone but Almighty God.

Now here’s an interesting episode:

1 Kings 2:19
When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down at his right hand.

Here’s the King bowing to and enthroning his mother. Does that mean she’s equal to God? No. It doesn’t even mean she’s equal to the King. It means he’s pleased to honor her because of her royal dignity, her relationship as Queen Mother.

As our mindset gets further and further from traditional custom and culture, it gets harder and harder to grasp what was once the universal language of physical gesture (he salute, the tip of the hat, the bow, the genuflection, the handclasp, the curtsey, the kiss) and put each expression in its proper perspective.

I think we need to be more engaged with these ancient ceremonial practices of address and gesture, so intrinsic to an honor culture; a courtly culture; a Biblical culture. It’s something to ponder and appreciate. As I live, I appreciate it more and more.