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How We Got the Bible
For the Love of His Truth ^ | May 19, 2012 | John MacArthur

Posted on 02/24/2015 7:04:16 PM PST by redleghunter

Ever since Eve encountered Satan’s barrage of doubt and denial (Gen. 3:1-7), mankind has continued to question God’s Word. Unfortunately, Eve had little or no help in sorting through her intellectual obstacles to full faith in God’s self-disclosure (Gen. 2:16,17).

Now the Scripture certainly has more than enough content to be interrogated, considering that it’s comprised of 66 books, 1,189 chapters, 31,173 verses, and 774,746 words. When you open your English translation to read or study, you might have asked in the past or are currently asking, “How can I be sure this is the pure and true Word of God?”

A question of this kind is not altogether bad, especially when one seeks to learn with a teachable mind (Acts 17:11). The Scripture invites the kinds of queries that a sincere student asks.

A whole host of questions can flood the mind, such as:

· Where did the Bible come from? · Whose thinking does it reflect? · Did any books of the Bible get lost in time past? · What does the Scripture claim for itself? · Does it live up to its claims? · Who wrote the Bible–God or man? · Has Scripture been protected from human tampering over the centuries? · How close to the original manuscripts are today’s translations? · How did the Bible get to our time and in our language? · Is there more Scripture to come, beyond the current 66 books? .Who determined, and on what basis, that the Bible would be composed of the traditional list of 66 books? · If the Scriptures were written over a period of 1,500 years (ca. 1405 B.C. to A.D. 95), · If the Scriptures were written over a period of 1,500 years (ca. 1405 B.C. to A.D. 95), passed down since then for almost 2,000 years, and translated into several thousand languages, what prevented the Bible from being changed by the carelessness or ill motives of men? Does today’s Bible really deserve the title “The Word of God”? Undoubtedly, these questions have bombarded the minds of many. A study of the Scriptures alone settles all questions to the extent that there is no need to be bothered by them again. Scripture gives this assurance.

Scriptures’ Self Claims

Take the Bible and let it speak for itself. Does it claim to be God’s Word? Yes! Over 2,000 times in the Old Testament alone, the Bible asserts that God spoke what is written within its pages. From the beginning (Gen. 1:3) to the end (Mal. 4:3) and continually throughout, this is what Scripture claims.

The phrase “the Word of God” occurs over 40 times in the New Testament. It is equated with the Old Testament (Mark 7:13). It is what Jesus preached (Luke 5:1). It was the message the apostles taught (Acts 4:31; 6:2). It was the Word the Samaritans received (Acts 8:14) as given by the apostles (Acts 8:25). It was the message the Gentiles received as preached by Peter (Acts 11:1). It was the word Paul preached on his first missionary journey (Acts 13:5,7,44,48,49; 15:35,36). It was the message preached on Paul’s second missionary journey (Acts 16:32; 17:13; 18:11). It was the message Paul preached on his third missionary journey (Acts 19:10). It was the focus of Luke in the book of Acts in that it spread rapidly and widely (Acts 6:7; 12:24; 19:20). Paul was careful to tell the Corinthians that he spoke the Word as it was given from God, that it had not been adulterated, and that it was a manifestation of truth (2 Cor. 2:17; 4:2). Paul acknowledged that it was the source of his preaching (Col. 1:25; 1 Thess. 2:13).

Psalms 19 and 119, plus Proverbs 30:5-6, make powerful statements about God’s Word which set it apart from any other religious instruction ever known in the history of mankind. These passages make the case for the Bible being called “sacred” (2 Tim. 3:15) and “holy” (Rom. 1:2).

The Bible claims ultimate spiritual authority in doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness because it represents the inspired Word of Almighty God (2 Tim. 3:16,17). Scripture asserts its spiritual sufficiency, so much so that it claims exclusivity for its teaching (cf. Is. 55:11; 2 Pet. 1:3,4).

God’s Word declares that it is inerrant (Pss. 12:6; 119:140; Prov. 30:5a; John 10:35) and infallible (2 Tim. 3:16, 17). In other words, it is true and therefore trustworthy. All of these qualities aredependent on the fact that the Scriptures are God-given (2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Pet. 1:2 0,21), which guarantees its quality at the Source and at its original writing.

In Scripture, the person of God and the Word of God are everywhere interrelated, so much so that whatever is true about the character of God is true about the nature of God’s Word. God is true, impeccable, and reliable; therefore, so is His Word. What a person thinks about God’s Word, in reality, reflects what a person thinks about God.

Thus, the Scripture can make these demands on its readers.

So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord. Deut. 8:3

I have not departed from the commandment of His lips; I have treasured the words of His mouth more than my necessary food. Job 23:12

The Publishing Process

The Bible does not expect its reader to speculate on how these divine qualities were transferred from God to His Word, but rather anticipates the questions with convincing answers. Every generation of skeptics has assailed the self-claims of the Bible, but its own explanations and answers have been more than equal to the challenge. The Bible has gone through God’s publishing process in being given to and distributed among the human race. Its several features are discussed below.

Revelation

God took the initiative to disclose or reveal Himself to mankind (Heb. 1:1). The vehicles varied; sometimes it was through the created order, at other times through visions/dreams or speaking prophets. However, the most complete and understandable self-disclosures were through the propositions of Scripture (1 Cor. 2:6-16). The revealed and written Word of God is unique in that it is the only revelation of God that is complete and that so clearly declares man’s sinfulness and God’s provision of the Savior.

Inspiration

The revelation of God was captured in the writings of Scripture by means of “inspiration.” This has more to do with the process by which God revealed Himself than the fact of His self-revelation. “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God. . .” (2 Tim. 3:16) makes the claim. Peter explains the process, “. . . knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit” (2 Pet. 1:20,21). By this means, the Word of God was protected from human error in its original record by the ministry of the Holy Spirit (cf. Deut. 18:18; Matt. 1:22). A section of Zech. 7:12 describes it most clearly, “. . . the law and the words which the Lord of hosts had sent by His Spirit through the former prophets.” This ministry of the Spirit extended to both the part (the words) and to the whole in the original writings.

Canonicity

We must understand that the Bible is actually one book with one Divine Author, though it was written over a period of 1,500 years through the pens of almost 40 human writers. The Bible began with the creation account of Genesis 1,2, written by Moses about 1405 b.c., and extends to the eternity future account of Revelation 21,22, written by the Apostle John about a.d. 95. During this time, God progressively revealed Himself and His purposes in the inspired Scriptures. But this raises a significant question: “How do we know what supposed sacred writings were to be included in the canon of Scripture and which ones were to be excluded?”

Over the centuries, 3 widely recognized principles were used to validate those writings which came as a result of divine revelation and inspiration. First, the writing had to have a recognized prophet or apostle as its author (or one associated with them, as in the case of Mark, Luke, Hebrews, James, and Jude). Second, the writing could not disagree with or contradict previous Scripture. Third, the writing had to have general consensus by the church as an inspired book. Thus, when various councils met in church history to consider the canon, they did not vote for the canonicity of a book but rather recognized, after the fact, what God had already written.

With regard to the Old Testament, by the time of Christ all of the Old Testament had been written and accepted in the Jewish community. The last book, Malachi, had been completed about 430 b.c. Not only does the Old Testament canon of Christ’s day conform to the Old Testament which has since been used throughout the centuries, but is does not contain the uninspired and spurious Apocrypha, that group of 14 rogue writings which were written after Malachi and attached to the Old Testament about 200-150 b.c. in the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament called the

Septuagint (LXX), appearing to this very day in some versions of the Bible. However, not one passage from the Apocrypha is cited by any New Testament writer, nor did Jesus affirm any of it as He recognized the Old Testament canon of His era (cf. Luke 24:27,44).

By Christ’s time, the Old Testament canon had been divided up into two lists of 22 or 24 books respectively, each of which contained all the same material as the 39 books of our modern versions. In the 22 book canon, Jeremiah and Lamentations were considered as one, as were Judges and Ruth. Here is how the 24 book format was divided.

The Hebrew Old Testament

Law

1. Genesis 2. Exodus 3. Leviticus 4. Numbers 5. Deuteronomy

Prophets

A. Former Prophets 6. Joshua 7. Judges 8. Samuel (1 & 2) 9. Kings (1 & 2)

B. Latter Prophets 10. Isaiah 11. Jeremiah 12. Ezekiel 13. The Twelve (minor prophets)

Writings

A. Poetical Books 14. Psalms 15. Proverbs 16. Job

B. Five Rolls (Megilloth) 17. Song of Solomon 18. Ruth 19. Lamentations 20. Ecclesiastes 21. Esther

C. Historical Books 22. Daniel 23. Ezra-Nehemiah 24. Chronicles (1 & 2)

The same 3 key tests of canonicity that applied to the Old Testament also applied to the New

Testament. In the case of Mark and Luke/Acts, the authors were considered to be, in effect, the penmen for Peter and Paul respectively. James and Jude were written by Christ’s half-brothers. While Hebrews is the only New Testament book whose authorship is unknown for certain, its content is so in line with both the Old Testament and New Testament, that the early church concluded it must have been written by an apostolic associate. The 27 books of the New Testament have been universally accepted since ca. a.d. 350-400 as inspired by God.

Preservation

How can one be sure that the revealed and inspired, written Word of God, which was recognized as canonical by the early church, has been handed down to this day without any loss of material? Furthermore, since one of the Devil’s prime concerns is to undermine the Bible, have the Scriptures survived this destructive onslaught? In the beginning, he denied God’s Word to Eve (Gen. 3:4). Satan later attempted to distort the Scripture in his wilderness encounter with Christ (Matt. 4:6,7). Through King Jehoiakim, he even attempted to literally destroy the Word (Jer. 36:23). The battle for the Bible rages, but Scripture has and will continue to outlast its enemies.

God anticipated man’s and Satan’s malice towards the Scripture with divine promises to preserve His Word. The very continued existence of Scripture is guaranteed in Isaiah 40:8, “The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God stands forever” (cf. 1 Pet. 1:25). This even means that no inspired Scripture has been lost in the past and still awaits rediscovery.

The actual content of Scripture will be perpetuated, both in heaven (Ps. 119:89) and on earth (Is. 59:21). Thus the purposes of God, as published in the sacred writings, will never be thwarted, even in the least detail (cf. Matt. 5:18; 24:25; Mark 13:3; Luke 16:17).

So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. Is. 55:11

Transmission

Since the Bible has frequently been translated into multiple languages and distributed throughout the world, how can we be sure that error has not crept in, even if it was unintentional? As Christianity spread, it is certainly true that people desired to have the Bible in their own language which required translations from the original Hebrew and Aramaic languages of the Old Testament and the Greek of the New Testament. Not only did the work of translators provide an opportunity for error, but publication, which was done by hand copying until the printing press arrived ca. a.d. 1450, also afforded continual possibilities of error.

Through the centuries, the practitioners of textual criticism, a precise science, have discovered, preserved, catalogued, evaluated, and published an amazing array of biblical manuscripts from both the Old and New Testaments. In fact, the number of existing biblical manuscripts dramatically outdistances the existing fragments of any other ancient literature. By comparing text with text, the textual critic can confidently determine what the original prophetic/apostolic, inspired writing contained.

Although existing copies of the main, ancient Hebrew text (Masoretic) date back only to the tenth century a.d., two other important lines of textual evidence bolster the confidence of textual critics that they have reclaimed the originals. First, the tenth century a.d. Hebrew Old Testament can be compared to the Greek translation called the Septuagint or LXX (written ca. 200-150 b.c.; the oldest existing manuscripts dates to ca. a.d. 325). There is amazing consistency between the two, which speaks of the accuracy in copying the Hebrew text for centuries. Second, the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1947-1956 (manuscripts that are dated ca. 200-100 b.c.) proved to be monumentally important. After comparing the earlier Hebrew texts with the later ones, only a few slight variants were discovered, none of which changed the meaning of any passage. Although the Old Testament had been translated and copied for centuries, the latest version was essentially the same as the earlier ones.

The New Testament findings are even more decisive because a much larger amount of material is available for study; there are over 5,000 Greek New Testament manuscripts that range from the whole testament to scraps of papyri which contain as little as part of one verse. A few existing fragments date back to within 25-50 years of the original writing. New Testament textual scholars have generally concluded that 1) 99.99 percent of the original writings have been reclaimed, and 2) of the remaining one hundredth of one percent, there are no variants substantially affecting any Christian doctrine.

With this wealth of biblical manuscripts in the original languages and with the disciplined activity of textual critics to establish with almost perfect accuracy the content of the autographs, any errors which have been introduced and/or perpetuated by the thousands of translations over the centuries can be identified and corrected by comparing the translation or copy with the reassembled original. By this providential means, God has made good His promise to preserve the Scriptures. We can rest assured that there are translations available today which indeed are worthy of the title, The Word of God.

The history of a full, English translation Bible essentially began with John Wycliffe (ca. a.d. 1330-1384), who made the first English translation of the whole Bible. Later, William Tyndale was associated with the first complete, printed New Testament in English, ca. a.d. 1526. Myles Coverdale followed in a.d. 1535, by delivering the first complete Bible printed in English. By a.d. 1611, the King James Version (KJV) had been completed. Since then, hundreds of translations have been made–some better, some worse. Today, the better English translations of the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures include: 1) New King James Version (NKJV); 2) New International Version (NIV); and 3) New American Standard Bible (NASB).

Summing It Up God intended His Word to abide forever (preservation). Therefore His written, propositional, self disclosure (revelation) was protected from error in its original writing (inspiration) and collected in 66 books of the Old and New Testaments (canonicity).

Through the centuries, tens of thousands of copies and thousands of translations have been made (transmission) which did introduce some error. Because there is an abundance of existing ancient Old Testament and New Testament manuscripts, however, the exacting science of textual criticism has been able to reclaim the content of the original writings (revelation and inspiration) to the extreme degree of 99.99 percent, with the remaining one hundredth of one percent having no effect on its content (preservation).

The sacred book which we read, study, obey, and preach deserves to unreservedly be called The Bible or “The Book without peer,” since its author is God and it bears the qualities of total truth and complete trustworthiness as also characterizes its divine source.

Is There More To Come?

How do we know that God will not amend our current Bible with a 67th inspired book? Or, in other words, “Is the canon forever closed?”

Scripture texts warn that no one should delete from or add to Scripture (Deut. 4:2; 12:32; Prov. 30:6). Realizing that additional canonical books actually came after these words of warning, we can only conclude that while no deletions whatsoever were permitted, in fact, authorized, inspired writings were permitted to be added in order to complete the canon protected by those passages.

The most compelling text on the closed canon is the Scripture to which nothing has been added for 1,900 years.

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Rev. 22:18,19

Several significant observations, when taken together, have convinced the church over the centuries that the canon of Scripture is actually closed, never to be reopened.

1. The book of Revelation is unique to the Scripture in that it describes with unparalleled detail the end-time events which precede eternity future. As Genesis began Scripture by bridging the gap from eternity past into our time/space existence with the only detailed creation account (Gen. 1, 2), so there was a parallel silence after John delivered Revelation. This also leads to the conclusion that the New Testament canon was then closed.

2. Just as there was prophetic silence after Malachi completed the Old Testament canon, so there was a parallel silence after John delivered Revelation. This leads to the conclusion that the New Testament canon was then closed also.

3. Since there have not been, nor now are, any authorized prophets or apostles in either the Old Testament and New Testament sense, there are not any potential authors of future inspired, canonical writings. God’s Word, “once for all delivered to the saints,” is never to be added to, but to be earnestly contended for (Jude 3).

4. Of the 4 exhortations not to tamper with Scripture, only the one in Revelation 22:18,19 contains warnings of severe Divine judgement for disobedience. Further, Revelation is the only book of the New Testament to end with this kind of admonition and was written over 20 years after any other New Testament book. Therefore, these facts strongly suggest that Revelation was the last book of the canon and that the Bible is complete; to either add or delete would bring God’s severe displeasure.

5. Finally, the early church, those closest in time to the apostles, believed that Revelation concluded God’s inspired writings, the Scriptures.

So we can conclude, based on solid Biblical reasoning, that the canon is and will remain closed. There will be no future 67th book of the Bible.

Where Do We Stand?

In April, 1521, Martin Luther appeared before his ecclesiastical accusers at the Diet of Worms. They had given him the ultimatum to repudiate his unwavering faith in the sufficiency and perspicuity of the Scriptures. Luther is said to have responded, “Unless I am convicted by Scripture and plain reason–I do not accept the authority of popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other–my conscience is captive to the Word of God… God help me! Here I stand.”

Like Martin Luther, may we rise above the doubts within and confront the threats without when God’s Word is assailed. God help us to be loyal contenders of the faith. Let us stand with God and the Scripture alone.

The Bible

This book contains: the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers.

Its doctrine is holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable. Read it to be wise, believe it to be saved, and practice it to be holy.

It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you. It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword, and the Christian’s charter. Here heaven is open, and the gates of hell are disclosed.

Christ is the grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart, and guide the feet.

Read it slowly, frequently, and prayerfully. It is a mine of wealth, health to the soul, and a river of pleasure. It is given to you here in this life, will be opened at the judgment, and is established forever.

It involves the highest responsibility, will reward the greatest labor, and condemn all who trifle with its contents.

For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe. 1 Thess. 2:13

John F. MacArthur, Jr., The MacArthur Study Bible, (Dallas: Word Publishing) 1997


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; canon; macarthur
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To: Elsie
Who died and made HIM pope?

The quote is from a protestant source, so you may want to check with them. However, it affirms what Catholics have been saying; the purpose of scripture has always been for liturgical worship.

181 posted on 02/26/2015 4:54:45 AM PST by NYer (Without justice - what else is the State but a great band of robbers? - St. Augustine)
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To: don-o; redleghunter; CynicalBear; Greetings_Puny_Humans; dartuser; metmom
Because I have no interest in the magisterium. I asked a simple question in post 59. It is based on a snip from the OP. Of course, it is the acme of foolishness to try to discuss the content of the article that was posted.

What? An RC who has no interest in the magisterium? And you ask questions that challenge an argument without having an alternative to how one is to know what is Scripture? So your argument is not that if the consensus of the church is invoked then it must be an affirmation of the church of Rome via its magisterium, and that this means it is to be followed in all things?

Instead, it seems obvious to me that you are avoiding my questions because they challenge that alternative. If you have none, say so, if you do, tell me what it is.

Why must "church" refer to an invisible body, versus Godly people of God which are within the visible body progressively showing general consensus as to what and who is of God. Which the powers that be are to affirm, though it remains that what and who is of God is so regardless of magisterial rejection, as it can be wrong. Or does being the instruments and stewards of Holy Writ mean they are the infallible judges of what and who is of God, and thus they must be followed?

Unless you answer my questions then you are simply a protester that has no real argument, like liberals.

182 posted on 02/26/2015 5:48:04 AM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: don-o

Those are some respectful questions and they deserve a respectful reply. I’m on my cell phone at the moment and I can’t fully respond. I’ll get back to this later, don-o, but we must acknowledge the authority of any entity which could call together these scattered churches into the councils mentioned by MacArthur. Next, we must admit that any message found to be from God is afterwards more authoritative than the entity certifying the authenticity of that message.


183 posted on 02/26/2015 5:50:12 AM PST by xzins (I Donated to the Freep-a-Thon - You Should, Too! https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: xone; Elsie
Special badges or dress for Jews Special taxes for Jews Forcing Jews to remit debt of Christians Banning, confiscating or burning Jewish law books and other writings. Encouraging or forcing conversion of Jews Expelling Jews from Papal territories or forcing Jews to live in ghettos. Inquisition for backsliding converted Jews

Where is the "see no evil" pic? 🙈 🙉 🙊

184 posted on 02/26/2015 5:53:45 AM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212

I am an Orthodox Christian.


185 posted on 02/26/2015 6:06:44 AM PST by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever!)
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To: xzins
We bible believers tend to view the bible as a message brought to us by our Commander and delivered by a messenger. Once the Commander’s message is shown to be from him, then it is Him and His message that is to be followed and NOT any messenger who delivered the message.

The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
-Deuteronomy, Catholic chapter eighteen, Protestant verses fifteen to twenty two
-Malachi, Catholic chapter three, Protestant verse one
-Mark, Catholic chapter seven, Protestant verse thirteen

186 posted on 02/26/2015 8:25:36 AM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: xone
I note you have invoked the Julius Streicher defense for your client and wonder if you agree that Streicher received fair justice. I also note you have implicitly allowed justification by works, which was big of you. You err in attributing the Nazis to the Catholics. You should know it was primarily the German Lutherans who gave them power in 1932.

He was acquitted of crimes against peace, but found guilty of crimes against humanity, and sentenced to death on 1 October 1946. The judgment against him read, in part:

"... For his 25 years of speaking, writing and preaching hatred of the Jews, Streicher was widely known as 'Jew-Baiter Number One.' In his speeches and articles, week after week, month after month, he infected the German mind with the virus of anti-Semitism, and incited the German people to active persecution. ... Streicher's incitement to murder and extermination at the time when Jews in the East were being killed under the most horrible conditions clearly constitutes persecution on political and racial grounds in connection with war crimes, as defined by the Charter, and constitutes a crime against humanity.”[15]

187 posted on 02/26/2015 8:50:33 AM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: af_vet_1981; don-o

Just to clarify my previous comments about a Commander and a messenger coming from a Commander. It was a military commander; imagine a general. The messenger; imagine a courier.

If a courier arrives to you in the midst of a battle with a message supposedly from the commander, you have to authenticate the message that the courier is bringing.

Once you do authenticate the message, the courier isn’t the issue. The issue is that the General has issued an order and that order if written down in front of your eyes.

If the Commander’s message said “Take hill 1782” and the courier says “No, I want you to take hill 597”, that should prompt you to say, “What...are you nuts?” If he replies, “Well, I carried and authenticated that written message from the General to you, so I’m now in charge.”, then you know that he’s gotten himself wrapped around the axle.


188 posted on 02/26/2015 9:34:27 AM PST by xzins (I Donated to the Freep-a-Thon - You Should, Too! https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: af_vet_1981
I note you have invoked the Julius Streicher defense for your client and wonder if you agree that Streicher received fair justice.

Note taking isn't a strong suit of yours is it? If Streicher was hung, that seems fair.

I also note you have implicitly allowed justification by works, which was big of you.

I note you make big claims without proof sans a Nazi's testimony.

You err in attributing the Nazis to the Catholics.

I don't at all, your claim is the Nazis 'followed Luther's plan' for dealing with the Jews. To the extent you posted that 'plan' many key similarities between it and what the Nazis did were missing. OTOH OTC's practices pre and post Luther were much more in line with what ensued. And the OTC wasn't speaking of theory, they had practiced and to the extent possible perfected these practices. Missing from the plans of the OTC but adopted by the Nazis were the use of furnaces to get rid of the evidence. Apparently the OTC figured riverside bonfires would suffice followed by the dumping into the river. Exhumation then burning (after trial) was a key component of OTC 'justice'.

In light of the above and the continued OTC abuse of the Jews during the formative years of the Nazi party, I'm sure the nominal Catholic Hitler figured he had the Catholics in the bag. After all if their hierarchy practiced and condoned AS, how much more so the laity. Hence the appeal to Luther by the propaganda ministry under Goebbels.

Nice rap sheet on your 'witness'. I can see why you as a Catholic would rely on such a person to smear the whole life of a man dead 400 years for reason of an execrable polemic he had published. Anything to divert the eyes from the keeper of the AS 'flame' throughout the centuries, the OTC. Keep exercising your 'shovel ready' job on this subject. Lots of things are buried to the average lurker. Perhaps the non irony challenged can see it in light of a the claim of OTC that had Peter as first Pope but then could have descended into the millenium + long practices it did. And the Saintly men who led the charge.

A job awaits in the 0bama admin for a man of such talent for massaging history.

189 posted on 02/26/2015 9:36:09 AM PST by xone
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To: xone
Nice rap sheet on your 'witness'. I can see why you as a Catholic would rely on such a person to smear the whole life of a man dead 400 years for reason of an execrable polemic he had published. Anything to divert the eyes from the keeper of the AS 'flame' throughout the centuries, the OTC. Keep exercising your 'shovel ready' job on this subject. Lots of things are buried to the average lurker. Perhaps the non irony challenged can see it in light of a the claim of OTC that had Peter as first Pope but then could have descended into the millenium + long practices it did. And the Saintly men who led the charge.

A job awaits in the 0bama admin for a man of such talent for massaging history.

Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee.

Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years? And the LORD answered the angel that talked with me with good words and comfortable words. So the angel that communed with me said unto me, Cry thou, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy. And I am very sore displeased with the heathen that are at ease: for I was but a little displeased, and they helped forward the affliction.

And he took up his parable, and said, Balak the king of Moab hath brought me from Aram, out of the mountains of the east, saying, Come, curse me Jacob, and come, defy Israel. How shall I curse, whom God hath not cursed? or how shall I defy, whom the Lord hath not defied? For from the top of the rocks I see him, and from the hills I behold him: lo, the people shall dwell alone, and shall not be reckoned among the nations. Who can count the dust of Jacob, and the number of the fourth part of Israel? Let me die the death of the righteous, and let my last end be like his! And Balak said unto Balaam, What hast thou done unto me? I took thee to curse mine enemies, and, behold, thou hast blessed them altogether. And he answered and said, Must I not take heed to speak that which the Lord hath put in my mouth?

For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
-Genesis, Catholic chapter twenty seven, Protestant verse twenty nine, as authorized by King James
-Numbers , Catholic chapter twenty three , Protestant verses seven to twelve, as authorized by King James
-Zechariah, Catholic chapter one , Protestant verses twelve to fifteen, as authorized by King James
-Zechariah, Catholic chapter two , Protestant verses eight and nine, as authorized by King James
-Matthew, Catholic chapter five , Protestant verses eleven to twelve. , as authorized by King James

190 posted on 02/26/2015 10:07:19 AM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: af_vet_1981
I appreciate the Scripture, but how does that apply to the OTC? While it claims to have been founded by Christ it acted more like Moab than Christ. Don't tell me, as other OTC FReepers have that Catholics wrote the Bible, so it means they wrote the OT as well? Does the OTC get a pass?

I have denounced Luther's JATL, his contemporaries did the same. None of his 'recommendations' are part of the Lutheran Confessions. Yet, the actions of the OTC throughout its history up to WWII is somehow irrelevant? But a polemic from the 16th century by an author long dead is relevant? Is there a concerted Lutheran cabal that has promoted AS since the LC were published of which no one is aware?

Apparently calling out the OTC for its manifest and historical AS is tantamount to persecution? LOL, perhaps more time should be spent by Catholics boarding up the AS windows on the crystal cathedral of the OTC than concentrating on an AS polemic of a dead man. I'm sure an ecumenical alliance with Muslims will help there. But keep on posting, unvarnished history is a good thing.

191 posted on 02/26/2015 10:34:10 AM PST by xone
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To: xzins
We bible believers tend to view the bible as a message brought to us by our Commander and delivered by a messenger. Once the Commander’s message is shown to be from him, then it is Him and His message that is to be followed and NOT any messenger who delivered the message.

Excellent description. Not lost on this old Soldier:)

192 posted on 02/26/2015 10:36:21 AM PST by redleghunter (He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself. Lk24)
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To: redleghunter

See #188 above also


193 posted on 02/26/2015 10:42:30 AM PST by xzins (I Donated to the Freep-a-Thon - You Should, Too! https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: xzins

Indeed. Right on I must say. All OPORDs and FRAGOs (as you know) have the authentication of the commander after paragraph 5.


194 posted on 02/26/2015 10:47:23 AM PST by redleghunter (He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself. Lk24)
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To: redleghunter

Signal, password, and SOI are included as means of authentication in an opord. With the bible, the authentication was accomplished by the churches in possession of particular letters and gospels having the history of those letters as part of the history of those churches.

However, someone called those churches together into the councils that established the authentic books of the New Testament, in particular. That someone must have been a respected party.

I believe those early Christians maintained a connection and were not just random, isolated bodies of believers accidentally bumping into one another every now and then.

I believe that respected authority descended from the leaders of the Church in Jerusalem as seen in Chapter 15 of Acts.


195 posted on 02/26/2015 11:04:40 AM PST by xzins (I Donated to the Freep-a-Thon - You Should, Too! https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: xzins

Correct me if I’m in error...You are a retired Army chaplain?


196 posted on 02/26/2015 12:19:22 PM PST by redleghunter (He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself. Lk24)
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To: NYer
However, it affirms what Catholics have been saying; the purpose of scripture has always been for liturgical worship.

I'm interested in how the Book of Numbers, in the OT, gets taught in the Catholic Church.

197 posted on 02/26/2015 12:21:46 PM PST by Elsie
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To: don-o
I am an Orthodox Christian.

I guess that I am an UNorthodox one!

198 posted on 02/26/2015 12:23:00 PM PST by Elsie
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To: daniel1212
Where is the "see no evil" pic?

Here; Master...



199 posted on 02/26/2015 12:34:26 PM PST by Elsie
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To: Elsie

You could say the same thing about science at the moment. I remember when it was called ‘Newton’s LAW of gravity.’ Then Einstein came along.

It was ever thus. At least, from the standpoint of religion, nobody ever claimed it was anything but faith. When someone holds forth about this tenet or that, the argument is either inspiration, passion, or delusion.

With science, it is fact coming out of the gate. Man I wish we’d go back to the Scientific Method for a change.

Religion is faith, which is belief, which is why it is difficult.

Science shouldn’t be. Either you can construct an experiment that proves your assertions or you can’t. That’s out the window. Homosexuality was proclaimed normative by voice vote of a bunch of psychiatrists/psychologists. Look what that did.


200 posted on 02/26/2015 12:41:11 PM PST by RinaseaofDs
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