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Mary Matters (Dr. Walter Martin on disbelief in the Mother of God)
Catholic Exchange ^ | JULY 26, 2014 | Tim Staples

Posted on 01/24/2015 3:23:43 PM PST by NYer

In my new book, Behold Your Mother: A Biblical and Historical Defense of the Marian Doctrines, , I spend most of its pages in classic apologetic defense of Mary as Mother of God, defending her immaculate conception, perpetual virginity, assumption into heaven, her Queenship, and her role in God’s plan of salvation as Co-redemptrix and Mediatrix. But perhaps my most important contributions in the book may well be how I demonstrate each of these doctrines to be crucial for our spiritual lives and even our salvation.

And I should note that this applies to all of the Marian doctrines. Not only Protestants, but many Catholics will be surprised to see how the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, for example, is crucial for all Christians to understand lest they misapprehend the truth concerning the sacred, marriage, sacraments, the consecrated life, and more.

I won’t attempt to re-produce the entire book in this post, but I will choose one example among examples I use to demonstrate why Mary as Mother of God not only matters, but how denying this dogma of the Faith can end in the loss of understanding of “the one true God and Jesus Christ whom [God] has sent” (John 17:3). It doesn’t get any more serious than that!  

In my book, I use the teaching of the late, well-known, and beloved Protestant Apologist, Dr. Walter Martin, as one of my examples. In his classic apologetics work, Kingdom of the Cults, Dr. Martin, gives us keen insight into why the dogma of the Theotokos (“God-bearer,” a synonym with “Mother of God”) is such a “big deal.” But first some background information.

 Truth and Consequences

It is very easy to state what it is that you don’t believe. That has been the history of Protestantism. Protestantism itself began as a… you guessed it… “protest.” “We are against this, this, this, and this.” It was a “protest” against Catholicism. However, the movement could not continue to exist as a protestant against something. It had to stand for something. And that is when the trouble began. When groups of non-infallible men attempted to agree, the result ended up being the thousands of Protestant sects we see today.

Dr. Walter Martin was a good Protestant. He certainly and boldly proclaimed, “I do not believe Mary is the Mother of God.” That’s fine and good. The hard part came when he had to build a theology congruent with his denial. With Dr. Martin, it is difficult to know for sure whether his bad Christology came before or after his bad Mariology—I argue it was probably bad Christology that came first—but let’s just say for now that in the process of theologizing about both Jesus and Mary, he ended up claiming Mary was “the mother of Jesus’ body,” and not the Mother of God. He claimed Mary “gave Jesus his human nature alone,” so that we cannot say she is the Mother of God; she is the mother of the man, Jesus Christ.

This radical division of humanity and divinity manifests itself in various ways in Dr. Martin’s theology. He claimed, for example, that “sonship” in Christ has nothing at all to do with God in his eternal relations within the Blessed Trinity. In Martin’s Christology, divinity and humanity are so sharply divided that he concluded “eternal sonship” to be an unbiblical Catholic invention. On page 103 of his 1977 edition of The Kingdom of the Cults, he wrote:

[T]here cannot be any such thing as eternal Sonship, for there is a logical contradiction of terminology due to the fact that the word “Son” predicates time and the involvement of creativity. Christ, the Scripture tells us, as the Logos, is timeless, “…the Word was in the beginning” not the Son!

From Martin’s perspective then, Mary as “Mother of God” is a non-starter. If “Son of God” refers to Christ as the eternal son, then there would be no denying that Mary is the mother of the Son of God, who is God; hence, Mother of God would be an inescapable conclusion. But if sonship only applies to “time and creativity,” then references to Mary’s “son” would not refer to divinity at all.

But there is just a little problem here. Beyond the fact that you don’t even need the term “Son” at all to determine Mary is the Mother God because John 1:14 tells us “the Word was made flesh,” and John 1:1 tells us “the Word was God;” thus, Mary is the mother of the Word and so she is the Mother of God anyway, the sad fact is that in the process of Martin’s theologizing he ended up losing the real Jesus. Notice, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity is no longer the Eternal Son! And it gets worse from here, if that is possible! Martin would go on:

The term “Son” itself is a functional term, as is the term “Father” and has no meaning apart from time. The term “Father” incidentally never carries the descriptive adjective “eternal” in Scripture; as a matter of fact, only the Spirit is called eternal (“the eternal Spirit”—Hebrews 9:14), emphasizing the fact that the words Father and Son are purely functional as previously stated.

It would be difficult to overstate the importance of what we are saying here. Jesus revealed to us the essential truth that God exists eternally as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in his inner life. For Martin, God would be father by analogy in relation to the humanity of Christ, but not in the eternal divine relations; hence, he is not the eternal Father. So, not only did Dr. Martin end up losing Jesus, the eternal Son; he lost the Father as well! This compels us to ask the question: Who then is God, the Blessed Trinity, in eternity, according to Dr. Walter Martin and all those who agree with his theology? He is not Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He must be the eternal … Blahthe Word, and the Holy Spirit (Martin did teach Christ to be the Eternal Word, just not the Eternal Son). He would become a father by analogy when he created the universe and again by analogy at the incarnation of the Word and through the adoption of all Christians as “sons of God.” But he would not be the eternal Father. The metaphysical problems begin here and continue to eternity… literally. Let us now summarize Dr. Martin’s teaching and some of the problems it presents:

1. Fatherhood and Sonship would not be intrinsic to God. The Catholic Church understands that an essential aspect of Christ’s mission was to reveal God to us as he is in his inner life as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Jews already understood God to be father by analogy, but they had no knowledge of God as eternal Father in relation to the Eternal Son. In Jesus’ great high priestly prayer in John 17, he declared his Father was Father “before the world was made” and thus, to quote CCC 239, in “an unheard-of sense.” In fact, Christ revealed God’s name as Father. Names in Hebrew culture reveal something about the character of the one named. Thus, he reveals God to be Father, not just that he is like a father. God never becomes Father; he is the eternal Father

2. If Sonship applies only to humanity and time, the “the Son” would also be extrinsic, or outside, if you will, of the Second Divine Person of the Blessed Trinity. Thus, as much as he would have denied it, Dr. Martin effectively creates two persons to represent Christ—one divine and one human. This theology leads to the logical conclusion that the person who died on the cross 2,000 years ago would have been merely a man. If that were so, he would have no power to save us. Scripture reveals Christ as the savior, not merely a delegate of God the savior. He was fully man in order to make fitting atonement for us. He was fully God in order to have the power to save us.

3. This theology completely reduces the revelation of God in the New Covenant that separates Christianity from all religions of the world. Jesus revealed God as he is from all eternity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Dr. Martin reduces this to mere function. Thus, “Father” does not tell us who God is, only what God does. Radical feminists do something similar when they refuse to acknowledge God as “Father.” God becomes reduced to that which he does as “Creator, Redeeemer, and Sanctifier” and int he process where is a truly tragic loss of the knowledge of who God is. In the case of Dr. Walter Martin, it was bad theology that lead to a similar loss.

4. There is a basic metaphysical principle found, for example, in Malachi 3:6, that comes into play here as well: “For I the Lord do not change.” In defense of Dr. Martin, he did seem to realize that one cannot posit change in the divine persons. As stated above, “fatherhood” and “sonship” wold not relate to divinity at all in his way of thinking. Thus, he became a proper Nestorian (though he would never have admitted that) that divides Christ into two persons. And that is bad enough. However, one must be very careful here because when one posits the first person of the Blessed Trinity became the Father, and the second person of the Blessed Trinity became the Son, it becomes very easy to slip into another heresy that would admit change into the divine persons. Later in Behold Your Mother, I employ the case of a modern Protestant apologist who regrettably takes that next step. But you’ll have to get the book to read about that one.

The bottom line here is this: It appears Dr. Walter Martin’s bad Christology led to a bad Mariology. But I argue in Behold Your Mother that if he would have understood Mary as Theotokos, it would have been impossible for him to lose his Christological bearings. The moment the thought of sonship as only applying to humanity in Christ would have arisen, a Catholic Dr. Walter Martin would have known that Mary is Mother of God. He would have lost neither the eternal Son nor the eternal Father because Theotokos would have guarded him from error. The prophetic words of Lumen Gentium 65 immediately come to mind: “Mary… unites in her person and re-echoes the most important doctrines of the faith.” A true Mariology serves as a guarantor against bad Christology.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Other Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; christology; mariandoctrine; motherofgod; theology; virginmary
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To: huldah1776
Actually, all THREE versions (Pre, Mid and Post) can be 'found' in Scripture!

That's what makes it SO confusing!

541 posted on 01/25/2015 6:28:38 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: NYer

Only theologians, those who seek knowledge and not God’s Wisdom, take something so simple as the Gospel and turn it into a train wreck.

The problem behind all the Mary confusion is rooted in a misunderstanding of the spiritual world (God is a Spirit - John 4), and how we as spiritual beings, created in the image of God, but living in the physical world, interact with the spiritual world. If you don’t have a revelation of what took place between Mary and Gabriel, the unrenewed mind will imagine all sorts crazy ideas, including transforming the self-proclaimed handmaid of the Lord into something unscriptural.

The Eternal Word, spoken by Gabriel and believed by Mary, became flesh in Mary’s womb. (John 1) There was no physical union between God and Mary like in pagan mythology that so many new Christians had just left behind. And no reason for Joseph to divorce Mary since she had not committed adultery. God broke no laws, nor did He cause Mary or Joseph to break any marriage laws, or sin in anyway - you must accept this as Truth. It was a work of the Spirit in cooperation with Mary’s faith in God’s Word. She believed God’s Word, acted on it, and received the manifestation according to the promise. God gave man dominion over the Earth (Psalm 8:3-6, 115:16), so Mary had to receive His Word - “Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.” - Few truly appreciate the significance of her statement in Luke 1:38, or the power of faith in, and the certainty of God’s Word. Its one of those historical moments like Abraham’s willingness to offer Isaac, opening the way for God to offer His Son, that reverberates throughout Eternity. (see Genesis 22, Psalm 89:34-37, Isaiah 55:10-11, Mark 11:22-24, Luke 1:37, John 17:17-19, Romans 10, Titus 1:1-2, Hebrews 11:17-19, and the Sower/Seed Parables)

Jesus has always existed. Even a cursory study of God’s Word reveals this and undermines all attempts to elevate Mary to Creator status, and diminish or distract people away from their Savior, Jesus.

Bethlehem Ephrathah, you are small among the clans of Judah; One will come from you to be ruler over Israel for Me. His origin is from antiquity, from eternity. (Micah 5:2)

In the beginning was the Word, who was with God, and all things were created through him, the Word (Jesus). (John 1:1-4)

For I have come DOWN FROM HEAVEN to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will. (John 6:38)

“Where is your father?” they asked. Jesus answered, “Since you don’t know who I am, you don’t know who my Father is. If you knew me, you would also know my Father.” (John 8:19) — Meditate on this verse carefully.

He (Jesus) image of the invisible God, firstborn over ALL creation, EVERYTHING created by him, he is before all things, head of the body, the Church, He is the beginning, firstborn of the dead so he can be FIRST place in all things. (Col 1:15-23)

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Rev 1:8)

Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!” (John 8:58)

Philippians 2:5-11 (KJV) - 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (see also Luke 3:21-22, John 17:1-5, Romans 8:3, Hebrews 1 & 2)

Why would we in any way elevate, worship, or even give the appearance of worshiping Mary? The angels reject worship. Peter rejected worship, as did Paul and Barnabas. Even when spoon-fed the opportunity to praise Mary, or set an example for us to follow, Jesus flatly refused. Look at what Jesus offered as the alternative, and source of the Blessing.

Luke 11:27-28 (ASV) - 27 And it came to pass, as he said these things, a certain woman out of the multitude lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the breasts which thou didst suck.
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Jesus did praise people - John the Baptist (Matthew 11:11), Centurion (Matthew 8:10), Syrophoenician Mother (Matthew 15:28), Anointing at Simon the leper’s house (Matthew 26:10-13). Why can’t we find similar praise for his mother? In every conversation with Mary on Earth recorded in the Bible, Jesus calls her “woman” a respectful title he uses with all women - Samaritan woman, woman with an infirmity, the prostitute etc.

By no means did Jesus diminish Mary, or her faith example. Even Mary recognized Jesus as Lord, and acknowledged her need for a Savior. (Luke 1:46-49) Since Jesus was God’s Son, born of the Spirit - and not their natural child, Mary and Joseph were given the privilege and responsibility to care for Jesus and raise him. As early as 12 years old, Jesus already recognized God as his Father, even as he was obedient to his earthly guardians. His first recorded words corrected Mary’s assumption about his parentage.

Luke 2:48-49 (ASV) - 48 And when they saw him, they were astonished; and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I sought thee sorrowing.
49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? knew ye not that I must be in my Father’s house?

If you truly love Mary, why not follow her example?

Luke 1:38 (KJV) - 38 Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. >>> Mary saw herself as a servant, which was accurate under the Old Covenant. Believers are now children of God, and joint heirs of Jesus. She heard God’s Word, believed it, and acted on it. Faith comes from hearing God’s Word, not the rituals of religion, or the reasoning of theologians. (Romans 10:17) Even Elizabeth confirmed her faith in God’s Word - Luke 1:45 (KJV) And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

John 2:5 (KJV) - 5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it. >>> Whatsoever JESUS says, do it. Is there any scripture where Jesus commands or suggests we give Mary any special attention? I’ll save you the research - NO.

Luke 1:46 (KJV) - 46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, >>> Not a religion, not a denomination, not a theologian, not even herself, she magnified the only one who deserves such worship.

Luke 1:47-48 (KJV) - 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. >>> Her spirit recognizes her need for a Savior. If she was sinless, why did she need a Savior? Do a word search for “low estate” and you will see how this was truly Holy Spirit inspired, as she is acknowledging the spiritual death of ALL mankind from Adam and Eve forward. THAT is why she needs a Savior - why we ALL do. Religion can’t save you. Theologians can’t save you. Not even Mary can save you. There is only one person who brings life.

Ephesians 2:5-6 (AMP) - 5 Even when we were dead (slain) by [our own] shortcomings and trespasses, He made us alive together in fellowship and in union with Christ; [He gave us the very life of Christ Himself, the same new life with which He quickened Him, for] it is by grace (His favor and mercy which you did not deserve) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation).
6 And He raised us up together with Him and made us sit down together [giving us joint seating with Him] in the heavenly sphere [by virtue of our being] in Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One). >>>(Read all of Paul’s letters for the complete revelation of the New Birth, and your place in the Body of Christ. Its not just good news, but AWESOME news. You will be blown away by the infinite and Eternal Mercy of LOVE Himself.)

Jesus is referred to as the Last Adam, and the first begotten of many on this side of the cross (not “only begotten” as before). The first Adam was a created a being - consider that carefully. Note God’s Pronouncements “This is my Beloved Son.” And at the resurrection, “Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.” “I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son.” (2 Samuel 7:14, Psalm 2:7, Acts 13:33, Hebrews 1:5) For a short time, Jesus set aside his Eternal Glory and lived as a spiritually alive human (like Adam before the fall). He operated as a “Son of Man”, his most common name for himself, anointed by the Holy Spirit. (Acts 10:38)

This discussion has nothing to do with Catholic or Protestant - those are man-made divisions inspired by the enemy, and considering the last 2,000 years of bloody violence and unspeakable evil, his influence is obvious. Nor does it involve any imagined “hatred” of Mary, but everything to do with GOD’s TRUTH. The Bible is the ONLY OBJECTIVE TRUTH there is. What His Word says on ANY subject is ALL that matters. You CANNOT separate Jesus, the Living Word, from His written Word. They both agree. As does the Holy Spirit, who is the Spiritual guide inside Believers. All are in perfect harmony when the Word is rightly divided. The simple fact that Mary is never mentioned in any letter written specifically to the Church (the Body of Christ) is quite revealing. The fact that she disappears from scripture after Acts 1 should raise serious questions concerning the level of attention she deserves.

Much of the NT is written by folks who personally knew Mary - John, James, Jude, and Peter. Past the Gospels and chapter 1 of Acts, there is nothing but silence. And before anyone attempts to “discover” Mary in Revelation 12, the “great wonder in heaven” is Israel - I suspect antisemitism fueled much of the bad interpretations of Revelation down through the centuries. John personally knew Mary. If he saw her “clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars” he would have identified Mary by name. He knew Jesus, and would have immediately identified the “man child” as Jesus if it was him. By the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, John carefully recorded every detail of the vision. None of what he writes fits Mary or Jesus. It does, however, align quite nicely with many end time prophecies concerning Israel.

The Bible has one central theme from Genesis 1 through Revelation 22 - Jesus, the Savior of the World. He deserves ALL our attention. (Hebrews 12:2)

BTW - Don’t be this guy:
Jesus replied, “Your mistake is that you don’t know the Scriptures, and you don’t know the power of God. (Matthew 22:29 NLT)


542 posted on 01/25/2015 6:30:18 PM PST by Kandy Atz ("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
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To: metmom

Hey!

You ain’t supposed to notice this!


543 posted on 01/25/2015 6:30:29 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: metmom
I really believe that there is going to be a pre-trib rapture.

Oh NO!!

Here we go!!!

544 posted on 01/25/2015 6:31:07 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ADSUM
The Blessed Mother is either both the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of God or not.

I'll go with the NOT part.

545 posted on 01/25/2015 6:33:41 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ADSUM
Jesus was and is both God and man.

Yup; and Mary did NOT give 'birth' to the GOD part, but the MAN part.

546 posted on 01/25/2015 6:34:28 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: metmom
Nope because for one thing, the sin nature comes through the father.

Yet EVE sinned first.

547 posted on 01/25/2015 6:35:06 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Arthur McGowan

Wow. I don’t know how to break this to you gently, but...you are not a Christian.

WOW!!!

Not a bit judgmental; are you!

548 posted on 01/25/2015 6:36:29 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: metmom

I’ve noticed a trend here...


549 posted on 01/25/2015 6:37:14 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: metmom
I am not performing on demand to get the usual smarmy Catholic response of *Good girl. Keep it up and you'll soon be a Catholic like me*.

Oh???



550 posted on 01/25/2015 6:43:00 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: don-o
Do you agree or disagree with Nestorius?

Why the diversion attempt?

551 posted on 01/25/2015 6:44:43 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: rwa265

Doing a word search on the phrase *God the Son* on any Bible website will come up with no results.

You can try here.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ESV

Please show where I separated Jesus from God.


552 posted on 01/25/2015 6:46:17 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: ADSUM
I am not surprised that you do not want to believe in the teachings of God’s Church.

I'll go along with about 95% of what arrogance Rome says;

The rest of the dead albatross you can keep around your OWN necks!

553 posted on 01/25/2015 6:46:18 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: SkyDancer
Okay so two sinless people on earth at the same time?

(Cue Dueling Banjos)

554 posted on 01/25/2015 6:48:17 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
arroganT
555 posted on 01/25/2015 6:51:04 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
Why the diversion attempt?

Why not simply answer the question? Which I will now direct to you, making you the third person I have asked on this thread. It's a simple question. And it is certainly relevant to the Original Article. Remember that?

556 posted on 01/25/2015 6:51:21 PM PST by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever!)
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To: Arthur McGowan; caww
Wow. I don’t know how to break this to you gently, but...you are not a Christian.

So much for Catholics never judging the condition of another's soul.

557 posted on 01/25/2015 6:52:09 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Elsie

Done some on-line research and interesting reads from both sides. I like the was some stretch Biblical verses.


558 posted on 01/25/2015 6:53:35 PM PST by SkyDancer
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
Jesus tells us to "listen to the church." And, "if he will not listen to the church, treat him as a pagan or tax collector."

Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church

Oh please...Mary is not my mother nor is she the mother of the church...

Listen to the church is in the context of a local church applying discipline to an unruly member...THAT'S AS FAR AS IT GOES...If you guys would study scripture instead of a pagan religion, you'd know that...

559 posted on 01/25/2015 6:58:30 PM PST by Iscool
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To: CynicalBear
Hmmmm, who to believe? /sigh

Amazing, isn't it??? Believe God or, believe a religion whose history is filled with forgeries and lies and pagan worship...

560 posted on 01/25/2015 7:00:34 PM PST by Iscool
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