Posted on 01/21/2015 4:47:04 PM PST by RnMomof7
As a church history professor, I am sometimes asked how certain practices developed in church history. For example: When did the Roman Catholic (and Eastern Orthodox) emphasis on praying to saints and venerating relics and icons begin?
A somewhat obscure, but extremely helpful, book by John Calvin answers that question directly.
In his work, A Treatise on Relics, Calvin utilizes his extensive knowledge of church history to demonstrate that prayers to the saints, prayers for the dead, the veneration of relics, the lighting of candles (in homage to the saints), and the veneration of icons are all rooted in Roman paganism. Such practices infiltrated the Christian church after Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire in the fourth century.
Here is an excerpt from Calvin’s work that summarizes his thesis:
Hero-worship is innate to human nature, and it is founded on some of our noblest feelings, — gratitude, love, and admiration, — but which, like all other feelings, when uncontrolled by principle and reason, may easily degenerate into the wildest exaggerations, and lead to most dangerous consequences. It was by such an exaggeration of these noble feelings that [Roman] Paganism filled the Olympus with gods and demigods, — elevating to this rank men who have often deserved the gratitude of their fellow-creatures, by some signal services rendered to the community, or their admiration, by having performed some deeds which required a more than usual degree of mental and physical powers.
The same cause obtained for the Christian martyrs the gratitude and admiration of their fellow-Christians, and finally converted them into a kind of demigods. This was more particularly the case when the church began to be corrupted by her compromise with Paganism [during the fourth and fifth-centuries], which having been baptized without being converted, rapidly introduced into the Christian church, not only many of its rites and ceremonies, but even its polytheism, with this difference, that the divinities of Greece and Rome were replaced by Christian saints, many of whom received the offices of their Pagan predecessors.
The church in the beginning tolerated these abuses, as a temporary evil, but was afterwards unable to remove them; and they became so strong, particularly during the prevailing ignorance of the middle ages, that the church ended up legalizing, through her decrees, that at which she did nothing but wink at first.
In a footnote, Calvin gives specific examples of how Christians saints simply became substitutes for pagan deities.
Thus St. Anthony of Padua restores, like Mercury, stolen property; St. Hubert, like Diana, is the patron of sportsmen; St. Cosmas, like Esculapius, that of physicians, etc. In fact, almost every profession and trade, as well as every place, have their especial patron saint, who, like the tutelary divinity of the Pagans, receives particular hours from his or her protégés.
You can read the entire work on Google Books.
Calvin’s treatment includes a historical overview, quotes from the church fathers, and even citations from sixteenth-century Roman Catholic scholars. The result is an air-tight case for the true origin of many Catholic practices.
Calvin’s conclusion is that these practices are nothing more than idolatrous superstitions, rooted in ancient Roman paganism. Even today, five centuries later, his work still serves as a necessary warning to those who persist in such idolatry. Hence his concluding sentence: “Now, those who fall into this error must do so willingly, as no one can from henceforth plead ignorance on the subject as their excuse.”
” Whoa whoa whoa....everyone above assumes it all went south in the 4th century. So why are you setting a date of 100? Which one is it? Did it all go south after Clement or after Constantine? “
I actually explained that the first time. Here it is again...
If it didn’t exist by 100ad, it was not part of the Apostles teaching or tradition.
best.
Exactly.
There is a principle in linguistics: a widespread feature is assumed to be original, whereas a localized one is assumed to be an innovation.
It's in the Catholics bible. They can burn fish hearts to drive away devils also! They don't even need Jesus for that, just some fish hearts to burn.
Tobit 6:8 And the angel, answering, said to him: If thou put a little piece of its heart upon coals, the smoke thereof driveth away all kind of devils, either from man or from woman, so that they come no more to them. 6:9 And the gall is good for anointing the eyes, in which there is a white speck, and they shall be cured.
To preach only “Jesus Christ and Him crucified.” is my focus as well. Amen. This one phrase summarizes so much.......
Followed by Phil. 3:8 - 11, which was Paul’s heart cry in the last years of his life and ministry......”that I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death....”
The early third century is the early 200s. Still a hundred years before Constantine and the alleged paganization.
You are incoherent.
The veneration of idols, deities, semi-deities, reverence to relics etc...are universal pagan practices.
Of course as Christianity spread the practices would remain, some being sanctified, others with their pagan taint remaining.
I have been quite struck by the similarity of certain Roman Catholic ritual and iconography with Buddhist/Taoist ritual and iconography.
Clearly you didn’t read the entire work of John Henry Newman. I refer to him not as Cardinal in this sense because was simply John at this point in his life. He entered the Church shortly after penning the treatise you quoted.
Had you actually read his work rather than quoting inflammatory tracts, you would have found that he cited 7 powers of the Church in the development of Church doctrine. The selection you quoted is from the “Assimilative Power.” This is a power, by the way, that was demonstrated by St Paul to the Greeks who had built a monument to the “unknown God.” St Paul introduced them to the God they did not know by “assimilating” their understanding of the miracle they celebrated (Acts 17:23).
Although the body of John Newman’s work is commendable, I will take very simple issue with the statement you quoted. The use of temples, and those dedicated to particular people; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings; holy water; holidays and seasons, calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; and vestments are all of Jewish ancestry and decent to us, their children in faith. I can’t speak to his state of mind in describing them of “pagan” origin but even a cursory study of the Old Testament shows the truth of this.
Ok so at what point after 100 AD did praying to saints get "introduced"? And by whom? And did anyone object?
Scripture teaches that all believers are saints.
>>“Reformed” theology, on the other hand, holds that grace does nothing to us. It does not make us holy.<<
Please show documentation for that statement.
>>What Jesus left behind in the world is primarily words, written down<<
Protestant believe as Jesus said that when He went to Heaven He would send the Holy Spirit to indwell all believers.
>>The Church, through the Sacraments, makes Christ still present on earth<<
On the other hand Jesus said:
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
No Catholic Church needed.
>>Protestantism is about God pretending that we are no longer sinners, even though all our actions are sins.<<
Protestants believe that our sins have been forgiven and Christ has imputed His righteousness to us.
>>This is why so many Protestants deride the saints as “dead people.”<<
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
“We need not shrink from admitting that candles, like incense and lustral water, were commonly employed in pagan worship and the rites paid to the dead. But the Church from a very early period took them into her service, just as she adopted many other things indifferent in themselves, which seemed proper to enhance the splendor of religious ceremonial. We must not forget that most of these adjuncts to worship, like music, lights, perfumes, ablutions, floral decorations, canopies, fans, screens, bells, vestments etc. were not identified with any idolatrous cult in particular; but they were common to almost all cults” (Catholic Encyclopedia, III, 246.)
“When we give or receive Christmas gifts; or hang green wreaths in our homes and churches, how many of us know that we are probably observing pagan customs...the god, Woden, in Norse Mythology, descends upon the earth yearly between December 25th and January 6th to bless mankind...But pagan though they be, they are beautiful customs. They help inspire us with the spirit of 'good will to men', even as the sublime service of our Church reminds us of the ‘peace on earth’ which the babe of Bethlehem came to bestow” (Externals of the Catholic Church, 140).
That has all happened before.
“As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.” (Jer.44:16-17)
Ah, “some being sanctified”....now we are getting somewhere!
Words say it. But nothing like pictures and vid to show it.
How does the Roman Catholic Church determine sainthood? [Catholic Caucus]
How Many Miracles are Required to Canonize a Saint?
Saints [Catholic, Orthodox, Open]
SAINTHOOD 101: Rules for Becoming a Saint [Catholic Caucus]
The Process of Becoming a Saint (Canonization) [Catholic Caucus]
Pope Lists Criteria for Causes of Canonization
This is like asking Obama or Putin “What’s wrong with America?”.
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