Posted on 11/11/2014 6:50:40 PM PST by Colofornian
Exactly. God also chose Joseph Smith as a Prophet who you also consider as a sinful man.
That was my first point that being critical of Joseph Smith for being a polygamist is like the pot calling the kettle black.
As Jesus said, in Matthew 23:37, prophets get rejected by His own people.
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
God’s chosen people even murdered Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Savior of the world.
Ah; but I do not base my KNOWLEDGE about what Mormonism is like on what JS is like.
It speaks for it's self.
Let's pretend that Billy Graham found them thar golden plates and 'translated' them.
There is ZERO indication that the GOD of the Bible did any such thing.
It is most sad the people believes that Joeseph C Smith was in any way a a prophet of God. It is even more sad the effects thereof. Sadly again 1 of those effects is the present holder of the White House address.
Now please show me...
(a) where God -- ANYWHERE in Scripture -- gives women authority to bestow a man with an extra wife??? (As in the cases of Jacob's household) Go ahead. Show us.
(b) where Jacob himself ever officially betrothed himself to Leah (before sleeping with her & thereby feeling obligated to her afterwards)...Go ahead. Show us.
and (c) where God is ever the author of deception as some kind of "means" to ensure Jacob would become a polygamist.
Admit it. Jacob became a polygamist via deception. Deception is the exact opposite of what God ordains! It is the exact opposite of God's character.
What's funny is that you elevate this as some kind God-ordained thing (re: Jacob's household).
Wow! So "authoritative!" on your subjective, personal interpretations from the Scriptures!
(Don't let that speculative door bang your butt as you over-frequent that establishment!)
Again, who gives a woman authority to bestow a man with an extra wife? Show me ONCE in Scripture where God issues that kind of authority?
(And especially...as in THIS case -- and Jacob's case -- where a slave-woman has no rights to say "no" to her mistress when she tells the slave-woman to go sleep with her hubby). Gen. 16:5 clearly shows Sarah wasn't trusting God with the promise to bear a child by saying "I put my slave in your arms... (not God; and not Abram)
Show me where in Genesis 16 that Abram references her as his wife? You would think that if Abram thought of Hagar as his wife per verse 3, that he wouldn't be referencing Hagar in v. 6 as "your slave" when talking with Sarai.
And then what about the angel of the Lord? Why in v. 8 is He still referencing Hagar as "slave" if she's graduating to wifehood? (You're not accusing the Angel of the Lord of either being mistaken about a former title of a person, are you?)
And in verse 9, the Angel of the Lord tells Hagar to "go back to your mistress." He doesn't say "go back to your husband now does He?
Then what about God, Himself? How does He reference Hagar in Gen. 21:12? Does He call Hagar Abraham's wife? Nope. You're off-base yet again (your norm track record). God references Hagar as "slave woman" in that verse? (Interesting title for a woman everybody is suppose to know is Abraham's "wife" eh?)
Or now do you accuse God before the world of being in the dark about Hagar's true status?
If so, you need to openly repent before the world and before God, lest your silence on this matter brings ultimate divine accountability for such an accusation!!!
Finally, the apostle Paul could have referenced Hagar as Abraham's so-called "wife" well after the fact in Galatians 4. Instead, what do we find? Paul in three consecutive verses (22, 23, 24) labels her as a "slave woman"...
According to the prophet Moses, the prophet Abraham was a polygamist even if just for one night
(David eventually married Bathsheba. But that still didn't make Bathsheba David's wife the first night she slept with him...she was still the wife of Uriah the first night she slept with him...
So...you're conveying that if somebody sleeps with somebody else minus divine authority or if some person minus authority deems it some kind of "wifehood" (I suppose you might "amen" fundamentalist Mormons declaring their women as part of various 'wifehood' clans as being divinely authorized, eh?) then "wifehood" it is, eh?
Well, that would make Bathsheba your first Biblically sanctioned polyandrist, eh? (Per you, married to both Uriah and David at the same time?)
100% ridiculous.
Your ignorance slip isn't only showin', but embarrasingly so!
I don't agree with everything said in this source...and could cherrypick many sources if I wanted to find MANY that would agree 100% with David's historical timeline...
"David was married to Ahinoam, Abigail, Maacha, Haggith, Abital and Eglah during the 7-1/2 years he reigned in Hebron as king of Judah. After David moved his capital to Jerusalem, he married Bathsheba."
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/biblepeople/a/020811-CW-King-Davids-Wives.htm
Did you catch the above? (And there's THOUSANDS more sources I could cite that would agree with this: David's sleeping around occurred after he assumed king status...which occurred circa 2 Sam. 5)
It wasn't like he was some philanderer that God then said, "Great, you've got the bedroom makings for a king! Here's your crown!"
Why did he choose wise Solomon the serial polygamist to be a king of Israel?...God chose rophets who were polygamists and he chose kings of Israel who were polygamists. If God was against polygamy, why did he choose so many polygamists as his prophets and kings?
I've already quoted Deut. 17:17...but allow me to quote it again because of a key follow-up passage in 1 Kings 11:
17 He MUST NOT take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold.
So what happened then with Solomon? Did his heart go astray as the Bible warned? (Yup)
3 He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray. 4 As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the Lord his God... (1 Kings 11:3-4)
Hmmm...I guess Deut. 17:17 was right...
Besides didn't you ... in the same posting say:
Deut. 17:17 is referring to kings of Israel that God shall choose.
So what? It applies to Solomon the king, but somehow not to David the king? (How do you twist out of that inconsistency?
And THEN you wrote: 17 He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold. 18 When he takes the throne of his kingdom, he is to write for himself on a scroll a copy of this law, taken from that of the Levitical priests. (Moses, Deuteronomy 17:17-18) So, lots of horses(verse 16), lots of wives, and lots of gold and silver are bad for the king. It does not say he only gets one horse, one wife, one gold, and one silver.
So...if let's say...we said David had 7 or 8 wives...(AND, btw, I don't think all of the women who bore David children were clearly delineated as "wives"...some were apparently concubines...and there IS a difference)...you're somehow now claiming that 7 or 8 isn't under your category of "LOTS" ... but... what? 9 is? 10 is? 11 is? Where's your arbitrary line you are arbitrarily drawing here reached to where that word "lots" kicks in?
Answer?
I don't believe there IS any line you can draw with the subjective arbitrary statements you've made!
I don’t pretend to know everything about the Bible. I try to read what it says and make logical sense of it all.
Are you a prophet and the absolute authority on the Bible? NO.
You said that the Bible was silent on whether Moses was a polygamist. I disagreed by pointing out evidence that shows that Zipporah may have been alive. There is no evidence of her divorce or death. You did not address the evidence.
You don’t get to demand anything of me. I will post what I want to post and you are free to do the same.
a). I never made that argument. My argument was that Jacob was a prophet and a polygamist. Moses called all 4 of the women Jacob’s wives.
b) Genesis chapter 29
26 Laban replied, “It is not our custom here to give the younger daughter in marriage before the older one. 27 Finish this daughter’s bridal week; then we will give you the younger one also, in return for another seven years of work.”
28 And Jacob did so. He finished the week with Leah, and then Laban gave him his daughter Rachel to be his wife.
31 When the Lord saw that Leah was not loved, he enabled her to conceive, but Rachel remained childless. 32 Leah became pregnant and gave birth to a son. She named him Reuben,[b] for she said, “It is because the Lord has seen my misery. Surely my husband will love me now.”
33 She conceived again...
34 Again she conceived, and when she gave birth to a son she said, “Now at last my husband will become attached to me, because I have borne him three sons.” So he was named Levi.
Jacob was tricked into marrying Leah. But Jacob chose to become a polygamist by also marrying her Sister. They were also his cousins. Abraham had 6 sons and a daughter with Leah. That’s a whole lot of afterwards
c) I never argued that either.
Admit it, Jacob chose to become a polygamist after he was tricked into marrying one woman. He also chose to remain a polygamist.
No, what’s funny is that you keep making stuff up. I never said polygamy was ordained of God or elevated. I have pointed out that Abraham, Jacob, and Moses were Prophets of God who were also polygamists.
God knew David and Solomon would become polygamists. Yet he still chose them to be kings of Israel.
17 He MUST NOT take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold.
David and Solomon both were led astray after taking many wives. It does not say they were led astray and then took many wives.
For example, God said do not commit adultery. He did not say do not commit adultery or your heart will be led astray. A man’s heart is led astray and then he commits adultery. David is a good example of this because he committed adultery with Bathsheba but did not commit adultery before that.
Genesis 16:3 So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian slave Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. 4 He slept with Hagar, and she conceived.
Moses uses the word wife and wrote it as scripture that Hagar was a wife. Moses is saying what Sarai did. Moses is calling Hagar a wife as he is no quoting Sarai. Obviously Hagar did not remain as a wife.
Sarai is not Abraham’s master. Sarai did not make Abraham take Sarai as a slave or sex partner. Abraham agreed to the idea. He did not have to submit to her will. He accepted Hagar as a wife and slept with her.
You can argue against Moses using the word wife all you want. Take it up with him. But according to this verse, Abraham had two wives at the same time. Having more than one wife at the same time is known as polygamy.
I have said very little about David. Only that he was a polygamist. You are making stuff up that i didnt say or insinuate. It is so obvious that he was a polygamist before ever meeting Bathsheba. You listed his wives and then say Bathsheba is the first polyandist in the Bible? Are you mental? Do you even bother to read the bible?
It is a fact that Abraham had two wives at the same time.
It is a fact that Moses had two wives. There is no evidence that it was not at the same time but there is evidence that it was at the same time.
It is a fact that Jacob was married to more than two women at the same time and the first two were sisters.
It is a fact that David was married to more than one wife at the same time.
It is a fact that Solomon was married to multiple women at the same time.
It is a fact that Abraham, Jacob and Moses were God’s chosen prophets.
It is a fact that God chose David and Solomon to be kings of Israel.
If you disagree that these men were polygamists then what’s the point of discussing if God was ok with it or not if you don’t even believe that these men were polygamists meaning they had more than one wife at the same time.
My beliefs and my religion(mormon) have no bearing on the above facts I have listed. Neither do yours. I believe the Bible is the word of God. I assumed that you believe the Bible is the word of God.
Please do not assume to know my beliefs based on my being a Mormon. If you respectfully ask me my beliefs I might tell you what I believe. But, lets stick to the subject at hand which is whether or not Polygamy was practiced in the Bible because if we can’t agree on that , then there is no point in discussing anything else with you related to the topic of polygamy.
I apologize Colofornian for asking if you were mental. I was the one who was mental. I thought polyandry meant many spouses instead or more than one husband. My mistake.
Apparently you didn't understand my comment...'twas in response to you saying that even if it was a one-night stand 'tween Abram & Hagar, they were STILL husband-and-wife. And I then pointed out David's initial "one-night stand" with Bathsheba...and that if a one-night stand constituted "marriage," then Bathsheba would have to had been a polyandrist..."married" to Uriah & then "married" once upon sleeping with David.
I am the one claiming that just as Bathsheba was NOT married to David upon sleeping with him when Uriah was still alive, neither was Hagar a "wife" to Abram except INITIALLY -- and ONLY initially when you read Gen. 21 -- in Sarai's eyes ALONE. Sarah is the ONLY one who ever once regarded Hagar as a "wife" -- your citation in early Gen. 16.
By Gen. 21, she changed her mind about that.
And, working backwards, the Apostle Paul regarded Hagar as a slave & not Abraham's wife (Gal. 4:22-24)
Moses ... same thing (see Gen. 21)
God Himself...same thing (Gen. 21:11-12)
Angel of the Lord Himself...whom many regard as pre-incarnated Son of God...same thing (Gen. 21:8-9)
Abraham (Gen. 16:6)
Even Hagar in Gen. 16:7 doesn't say she is running away from her "husband" Abraham...instead she says she is running away from the one who owns her...her "mistress" (female word for "master")
So Hagar knew (Gen. 16:7);
Abraham knew it (Gen. 16:6);
Angel of the Lord knew it (Gen. 16:8-9);
God Himself knew it (Gen. 21:12);
Moses knew it (Gen. 21);
Paul knew it (Gal. 4:22-24);
and even Sarah knew it ... albeit too late to change what she did (Gen. 21:9-10)
(But I guess you remain in the dark, eh?)
It is a fact that Solomon was married to multiple women at the same time.
So what?
Are you advocating that since you apparently think God instructed Solomon to take up 300 concubines & 700 wives, that others should? Or do you think that since you believe God somehow sanctioned concubinage, that 'tis OK for anybody here to do so, too? And hey...why not 300 of them? Nothing wrong with that, you imply?
It is a fact that David was married to more than one wife at the same time.
Again, so what? It's also a fact David committed adultery with Bathsheba...and since God placed David as king, are you attempting to convey that God somehow sanctions adultery as well?
It's also a fact that Hosea married Gomer the Prostitute.
It's also a fact that Gomer CONTINUED to prostitute herself post-marriage.
And even beyond this -- unlike your polygamy & concubine scenarios -- in which we find no verses where God tells them to do that...we CAN see where God indeed told Hosea to marry a prostitute.
Therefore, are you suggesting that God somehow sanctions prostitution within the marriage bed?
I mean, exactly what is your goal in promoting polygamy as "Biblical."
Tamar was raped. That, too, is "Biblical" by YOUR standards. Just because all kinds of sexual sin is in the Bible, doesn't make it sanctioned by God. (Has that ever dawned on you?)
Colofornian, thanks for asking for my opinion.
You are right. Sin is in the Bible but that doesn’t make it right.
Look, you have been posting posting Mormon stuff for years on a political forum. It’s a strange obsession of yours, but whatever. Post what you want.
Based on that, we are never going to agree on anything related to anything Mormon. But, there’s a chance we can agree on some concepts especially things in the Bible. You obviously don’t try to find common ground,lol.
But here is my opinion and explanation on polygamy. My great great grandfather had 5 wives.
Obviously God created sex. He commanded Adam and Eve to have sex(multiply). Animals have sex.
But, sex is always a sin unless it is between husband and wife. But even that can be a sin if done on a busy street corner or done for Internet porn.
Sex isn’t always sin just like killing isn’t always sin. God’s chosen people and prophets did a lot of killing. God helped them kill their enemies. God has killed millions of his own children. But his commandment is thou shalt not kill(murder).
Polygamy still involves sex between a husband and wife. Sometimes polygamy is acceptable to God as with some of the prophets and Solomon and David up until Bathsheba. But most of the time God does not allow polygamy and it is sinful. That is why there seems to be contradictions in the Bible and contradictions in Mormon history on the subject of polygamy.
I have no desire to be a polygamist but I have a hard enough time keeping my own marriage together.
I have given proof that some of God’s chosen prophets and kings were polygamists, even with sisters, and yet you still believe the Bible is the word of God, as do I.
Yes, polygamy is controversial and the subject is often avoided by the Mormons just like the subject of polygamy in the bible is not a popular subject in most every other Bible church. Even you have a problem with polygamy in the Bible and run from it.
For me, I have no problem with polygamy and also believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God with over 40 wives and that the Book of Mormon is the word of God.
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