Posted on 10/28/2014 5:23:04 AM PDT by Colofornian
“Are you seriously asking about my underwear?”
No, I’m asking if you are wearing the “sacred” mormon undergarments - that the cult requires their “temple worthy” members to wear?
That would be true if and only if we were dealing with a Christian faith. In this instance we aren't
Looks like cat bashing to me. Cats have purrfect grammar.
bttt
I will not be swayed, or join in this effort.
I will stand with my Mormon brothers and sisters in Christ.
Theirs is not the same Christ i worship. Even their recent prophet said as much. They cannot be a brother or sister as long as they serve a false christ.
Do you believe that a man can attain perfection, ascend to the highest level of worthiness, marry countless numbers of women, create a world, populate that world through celestial sex with his countless numbers of wives and then rule over that world as “god”?
If so, then you might be a mormon...
The pathetic nature of it is laughable.
Typical, ignore the content and go straight to the personal attack...
That folks engage the nonsensical content of your “arguments” with truth and it is deemed “laughable” indicates one thing and one thing only...
Satan’s minions deny the truth...that it is ignored says much.
Besides, if you are having such a problem with the replies, why engage at all?
Yep, you are a lacky
Nowhere have I engaged in personal attack. That is a false accusation.
That I am still conversing on the third page makes it obvious I have no problem with replies. That is a false accusation.
You engaged me, not the other way around.
Satans minions deny the truth...that it is ignored says much
Indeed. I await your reply/false accusation.
Ah! Personal attack. Sweet.
I have always understood that ad hominems qualify the loser of any debate.
Then you lost a looooooong time ago.
Please provide an example, or admit you have borne false witness against me.
Ah, sure, ok. Whatever you say.
Regarding factual evidence, three of these witnesses testified that they had:
“seen the plates which contain this record . . . And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon . . .”
Eight other witnesses testified that they saw and handled the plates.
Did you seriously ask about my underwear?
I think you look great in those shorts! Keep it up. :)
Regarding factual evidence, three of these witnesses testified that they had:seen the plates which contain this record . . . And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon . . .
Eight other witnesses testified that they saw and handled the plates.
Normandy, for the sake of your soul, please read what I am about to paste for you. It demonstrates that everything you just wrote is false.
Character of the 11 Witnesses
Joseph Smith claims that after he translated the plates, he returned them to the angel Moroni. Therefore, there is no way to verify the veracity of the plates or Smith's translation. Smith's only defense of his account is the eleven men who signed statements claiming to have seen the golden plates. Therefore, the credibility of Smith's account rests on the testimony of these eleven witnesses. There are three key witnesses who claim to have seen the angel show the golden plates to them. The remaining eight allege to have seen the plates but not the angel. The LDS church asserts these men never denied their testimony. However, when we examine the lives of the witnesses, we find they were untrustworthy, wavering, and gullible witnesses.
Six of the eleven witnesses, including the three key witnesses were eventually excommunicated from the church. Former Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson summed up the legacy of the eleven witnesses this way. "Six of the original Twelve Apostles selected by Joseph Smith were excommunicated. The three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon left the church. Three of Joseph Smith's counselors fell--one even helped plot his death. . . . The wolves among our flock are more numerous and devious today than when President Clark made a similar statement [in 1949]."
Let us first examine the character of the three key witnesses since their testimony is the most important. In a letter dated December 16, 1838, Joseph Smith stated this about the three key witnesses and John Whitmer, one of the eight. "John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery, and Martin Harris are too mean to mention."
Martin Harris' testimony shows him to be a gullible and unstable man. He changed his religious conviction approximately thirteen times. He had joined several Christian denominations and other cult groups that include the Universalists, Strangites, and the Shakers. In Doctrine and Covenants, Joseph Smith gave revelations in which he denounces Martin Harris and calls him a "wicked man." The Mormon leaders published an article in the Elder's Journal, a Mormon publication edited by Joseph Smith, in which they accused Harris guilty of "swearing, lying, cheating, swindling, drinking, with every species of debauchery. . ." (Elders Journal, August, 1838, 59). Here the leaders of the Mormon Church strongly criticize the character of Harris.
Oliver Cowdery was also shown to be a very gullible man. He was led astray by Hiram Page, one of the eight witnesses who himself claimed to have divine revelations from his own seer stone. Although Joseph Smith denounced Hiram as a false teacher, Smith stated "to our grief, however, we soon found that Satan had been lying in wait to deceive. . . . Brother Hiram Page had in his possession a certain stone, by which he obtained certain 'revelations' . . . all of which were entirely at variance with the order of God's House, . . ." Despite Smith's condemnation, Oliver Cowdery joined Page's movement. Not only was he a gullible man, he was also indicted on several accounts of fraudulent business practices. The Mormon Church in a letter wrote, "During the career of Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer's bogus money business, it got abroad into the world that they were engaged in it. . . . We have evidence of a very strong character that you are at this very time engaged with a gang of counterfeiters, coiners, and blacklegs . . ." Cowdery was eventually excommunicated and he later joined the Methodist Church.
David Whitmer wrote, "God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to 'separate myself from among the Latter- day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them." In the spring of 1838, the heads of the church and many of the members had gone deep into error and blindness. . . . About the same time that I came out, the Spirit of God moved upon quite a number of the brethren who came out, with their families, all of the eight witnesses who were then living (except the three Smiths) came out; . . ." Here David Whitmer denounced the Mormon Church and encouraged people to follow his example and the example of the other witnesses and leave the church.
Joseph Smith in response attacked the character of David Whitmer. Smith stated, "God suffered such kind of beings to afflict Job . . . this poor man who professes to be much of a prophet, has no other dumb ass to ride but David Whitmer, to forbid his madness when he goes up to curse Israel: and this ass not being of the same kind as Balaam's . . . he brays out cursing instead of blessings. Poor ass!"
The character and life of the eleven witnesses to the Book of Mormon are very different from the Apostles of Christ. None of the Apostles wavered in their defense of Christ, even though all suffered and most died for their faith. The Apostles remained consistent in their teaching and never fell into any type of apostasy. Their lives were marked by honesty and integrity. They were never indicted for any criminal activity except for preaching Christ. The character of the Book of Mormon's eleven witnesses does not strengthen Smith's defense but cast further doubt on its authenticity.
Probe Ministry website quote
Normandy, you put forth the witnesses as testifying they had seen the plates and therefore, the plates existed. What you actually put forward is a group of false witnesses, who lacked character, morals and convictions. This is not support for your truth claim.
"I have reflected long and deliberately upon the history of this church & weighed the evidence for & against it loth (sic) to give it up -"I was followed by W Parrish, Luke Johnson & John Boynton [Boyington] all of who concurred with me, after we were done speaking M Harris arose & said he was sorry for any man who rejected the Book of Mormon for he knew it was true, he said he had hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth or handkerchief over them, but he never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain. And said that he never should have told that the testimony of the eight was false, if it had not been picked out of [him/me?] but should have let it passed as it was...
(Stephen Burnett letter to Lyman E. Johnson dated April 15, 1838. Typed transcript from Joseph Smith Papers, Letter book, April 20, 1837 - February 9, 1843, microfilm reel 2, pp. 64-66, LDS archives.)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.