88 [Catholic] Church Abuse Victims to Split $8M

The Ledger (Pittsburgh) ^ | 10/21/2014 | Joe Mandak

[CynicalBear]

>>What an off-the-wall question, meant --- I see --- as a comparison. The Catholic Church does not teach that.<<

Oh really?

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 – 590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)

Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 – 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia)

Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 – 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 – 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 – 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

[CynicalBear]

First of all, the quote you’re responding to was not mine. Second, my response was that Paul set out requirments for church leadership that the Catholic Church has blatantly disobeyed.

[CynicalBear]

>>Typical strawman response to the above statistics.<<

The best Catholics can come up with is "others do it too" and you think those "statistics" make the abuses in the Catholic Church somehow less egregious? I've got news for you. I'm not affiliated in any way to any of those churches nor would I be. I certainly wouldn't stay in any church that doesn't evict those pedophiles.

[Mrs. Don-o]

What disappoints me is that I actually like a good dispute, if both sides (or sometimes there are three sides) take the trouble of understanding what the other side(s) actually said and what they mean.

There's no healthy dialog, let alone debate, if the participants waste their time throwing roundhouse punches against something the other side didn't even say, doesn't teach and doesn't hold as true.

I don't mind a person raising honest points against Catholic doctrines. But what is more tiresome than a person who is regularly arguing with a cardboard cut-out or refuting a cartoon?

In terms of effectiveness, you will never make the least impression on somebody if you are critiquing a "doctrine" which they themselves do not recognize. You have to state it, first, in terms which hey can recognize, terms to which they can respond, "Yes, that's it. That's what I believe."

Without that, the whole thing is pointless.

After all these years, think of how much we could have learned, and how much better we would understand one another, if we had spent our time carefully listening to what the other person actually believes, speaking from the heart? How you could have edified me!

I regret so much wasted time ---God, forgive me! --- because time is the most precious thing God has given us: time, moments, months, years, in which to know Him, love Him, and serve Him in this world, and learn along the way to love one another.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

-— Paul set out requirments for church leadership that the Catholic Church has blatantly disobeyed -—

Are you referring to the “husband of one wife?” This means that a priest can’t be remarried. Otherwise, Paul would have disqualified himself from being a bishop, since he was not married. And if you don’t think he was a bishop, just look it up.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

-— The best Catholics can come up with is “others do it too” and you think those “statistics” make the abuses in the Catholic Church somehow less egregious? -—

According to the John Jay report, the abuse rate for priests is 1-2%, ministers 2-3%, government school teachers, 5-10%.

The Catholic Church has instituted a comprehensive screening program worldwide. What has your church done, and other Protestant churches? What about government schools?

To me, instituting comprehensive screening is more significant than commenting that “child sexual abuse is bad” on web sites.

Most people don’t consider that position or effort remarkable.

[publius911]

88 [Catholic] Church Abuse Victims to Split $8M

For the benefit of full disclosure...

88 [Catholic] Church Abuse Victims and their attorneys to Split $8M

[publius911]

I'm not affiliated in any way to any of those churches nor would I be. I certainly wouldn't stay in any church that doesn't evict those pedophiles.

Well, I do belong to one of those churches, and still value my faith, and live by it, but when that church left me, by forcing the parishioners, rather than the criminals to pay the price for their crimes, I was out of there...

[stonehouse01]

“...If you can’t marry or have a family to be a priest, of coruse it is going to attract homos...”

What about Matthew 19:12?

...there are eunichs who have made eunichs of themselves for the kingdom of the heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Clearly the bible states that celibacy for the kingdom of heaven is a worthy state. Remember all men are sinners, however remaining continent is not intrinsically suspect.

[stonehouse01]

coruse = course

[Old Yeller]

How come the practices of the Catholic Church are so unbiblical? Rhetorical question.

[CynicalBear]

>>Are you referring to the “husband of one wife?”<<

That's usually what Catholics would like us to focus on. It's so much easier than looking at the entire passage isn't it? Let's look at it all.

1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

Now, what were you saying?

[Dr. Thorne]

It's no surprise to me. Homosexuals have never been held accountable for AIDS which has killed so many of them, but has killed many others as well. They have successfully portrayed themselves as victims instead of perpetrators. The media supports their depravity as it fits with the media's own hatred of all that is good and true.

the Catholic Church is also culpable for their inclusion and protection of homosexuals within the ranks of their priests. The church claims to be cleaning up, but still drags her heels in a true purging and contrition for this monstrous sin. Just look at the responses to this post to see the willful blindness.

[CynicalBear]

>>What has your church done,<<

They certainly wouldn't still be in leadership position and not even able to assemble with us without repentance. And never in a leadership position after.

>>and other Protestant churches?<<

You would have to ask them. Of course I'm assuming any non Catholic is considered protestant by you. Totally erroneous.

>>To me, instituting comprehensive screening is more significant than commenting that “child sexual abuse is bad” on web sites.<<

The Catholic Church doesn't even "screen" per the qualifications Paul set down. Until they do any talk of "screening" is mute.

[Mrs. Don-o]

CB, the Catholic Church considers that everyone who is saved is saved by or through or with a connection to the Catholic Church which Christ founded as the means of salvation for the whole human race. But this is a mystical as well as a visible reality, not entirely reducible to an external, institutional connection.

All of those quotes? They are to be interpreted in the light of three spiritual facts:

• We can say who is in the Church, but we cannot say who is not in the Church.
• One is only culpable of the mortal sin of being "outside the church" under the usual conditions for any mortal sin:
  • sufficient knowledge that what they are doing is wrong and offensive to God
  • sufficient freedom of the will, that is, cooperating with evil freely, with full consent and without coercion
• The Sacraments are binding on us, but they are not binding on God. In other words, as soon as we are aware that God wills us to enter, and to remain within the Catholic Church, we are morally obliged to do so; but on God's part, He is the Savior and He can do as He wills.

This has always been our implicit belief from the beginning.

• We celebrate a liturgical feast day for the Holy Innocents as saints (the babies of Bethlehem who were murdered by Herod's troops) but they were never overtly subjects of the Roman Pontiff: how could they be? There was no Roman Pontiff!
• We consider Dismas, the criminal crucified next to Jesus, as saint, but he was never Baptized nor Confirmed, nor did he receive Holy Communion nor was attached to any Christian community. But he was saved because of his adherence to Christ and he received His mercy.
• The Holy Angels are all considered Catholic Saints (Michael, Gabriel and Raphael, as well as those names we don't know) but they are not subject to the Pope.

Therefore those quotes from various popes are conditioned by these other facts of Catholic theology which we (should) ALWAYS have in mind, but which you did not have in mind. (Except now you do!)

People who read a string of quotes without a Catholic framework, will not get a Catholic understanding.

If you want a short, clear cut through the philosophical definitions, you should check the Catechism, m'kay?

Or get it from me, I don't mind a bit!

[Mrs. Don-o]

Metmom, I meant to ping you to #21 -- that last one as also for you.

P.S. Everything hose popes said is true, under the understood conditions. I'd venture that most people who aren't visibly, institutionally subjects of the Roman Pontiff are excusable on grounds of ignorance.

I, personally, could not be excused because I know He wants me to use all the graces and blessings of being taught, governed, and sanctified by His Holy Church, and I thank Him for it.

But for those who do not know this, "They know not what they do." And Jesus didn't pray "So, Father, damn them." He prayed "Father, forgive them."

[CynicalBear]

Good for you. I will wish Catholics would have their eyes opened by God.

[CynicalBear]

>>How come the practices of the Catholic Church are so unbiblical?<<

They wouldn't be able to have the control if they stayed with scripture. Nor would they have been able to attract many pagans if they didn't incorporate their beliefs and practices.

[metmom]

Paul clearly laid out the requirements for church leadership. The Catholic Church has blatantly disobeyed those requirements to their own detriment.

Qualifications for elder and deacon.

1 Corinthians 5:1-13 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

That precludes taking communion with someone like that.

2 John 1:4-11 I rejoiced greatly to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as we were commanded by the Father. And now I ask you, dear lady—not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning—that we love one another. And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it. For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

Titus 1:5-16 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth. To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

1 Timothy 3:1-13 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 5:19-24 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.