Grace, Faith, and Works

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[Salvation]

Grace, Faith, and Works

  

Real Audio Lessons on this Topic

Justification by Faith Alone? I
Justification by Faith Alone? II
Justification by Faith Alone? III
Justification by Faith Alone? IV
What it means to be born again
Are you saved?

The Catholic position on salvation can be summed up thus: We are saved by Christ's grace alone, through faith and works done in charity inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Sola gratia! Grace alone -- but a grace we have to co-operate with. Thinking that all one has to do is pray the "Sinner's Prayer" once to be saved is wrong. Thinking that all one has to do is be a "good person" to be saved is wrong.

 
"We are saved by 'Faith alone'": No!

It takes more than simply knowing Jesus is the Messiah to be saved; even the Evil One knows Who Christ is.

James 2:14-26
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The Bible and the Catholic Church don't separate the "works of faith," preceded and caused by grace, from salvation (see relevant Scripture below) You can have all the faith in the world, enough to move mountains, but if you don't have charity, you are nothing:

I Corinthians 13:2 2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

"We can work our way into Heaven": No!

Catholic teaching for 2,000 years:
we are saved by grace alone, through faith that works in love

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The Catholic Church and Her Bible condemn the idea that one can work his way to Heaven on his own merit or that God "owes" a person for doing the right things.

All our works get their merit only from Jesus' sacrifice on our behalf. We can do "works" 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year for the rest of our lives, but without Christ's grace, they are nothing. Works have no merit in themselves -- and faith without works is not enough. We are saved by grace alone -- a grace that we accept neither "by faith alone" nor "by works alone," but "by faith that works in charity" (Galatians 5:6).

Something I came across on the Internet demonstrates the obvious importance of works. Below is a (albeit rather smart-alecky) joke letter to a pastor who preaches "faith alone":

I am a former Catholic who was recently saved through the Grace of Jesus Christ. All my life I knew I was a homosexual. The Catholic Church told me that I had to refrain from what I was in order to be saved! I never knew that my good works meant nothing! To think, I would have spent my entire life struggling not to engage in homosexual activity, just to wind up in Hell! I now realize that Salvation is through the finished work of Christ ALONE, and not from good works. I am now living as an active homosexual in the freedom of Jesus Christ!

The pastor, almost completely misunderstanding Catholicism but who has an entire ministry devoted to "saving Catholics", responded in part by saying:

It is true that a person is not saved by his works and that salvation is completely of grace. However that does not mean that works have nothing to do with salvation.

Well, "pastor," that's what Catholics have been saying all along!

The bottom line: all salvation comes from the grace of Christ's Sacrifice and only from the grace of His Sacrifice. Salvation is a free gift -- a gift that is not "owed" to us, that God didn't have to offer us, and that we could never "earn" on our own -- that we accept by faith and works. Christ doesn't have to give us this gift of salvation; we don't "deserve" this gift, we can't "earn" it; but He, in His endless Love for us, offers it nonetheless. We have to believe this gift exists (have faith) and then open our hands to receive it (obey, inspired by the grace given to us).

An analogy: there is a train called "Grace" that is the one and only route to Heaven and which is fueled by Christ's Passion, Resurrection, and Ascension alone. Some Protestants seem to believe that all one has to do is believe the train exists and all will be well. They accuse Catholics of thinking that belief in the train is unecessary, that we can give out free soup in the train station and, thereby, bypass the train altogether. But what Catholics actually believe is that the train -- Grace -- is the only way to Heaven, that it is the only means by which we are saved, that we can't take another route and can do nothing about getting to Heaven without that train. But we also teach that we have to believe in the train's existence and board it through repentance and obedience to what Christ teaches. God is the Conductor of the train, completely Sovereign, and can go off the tracks if need be to pick up those who are truly and invincibly ignorant of the train's existence but who are of good will, obey the natural law, and whom He deigns to save. If, when, and how He might do such a thing is completely up to Him and not for us to bicker about. It is to us to do what He has taught us: to believe, repent, love God and neighbor, and preach the Gospel.

Born Again?

Many non-Catholics, in their confused zeal for Jesus, are constantly asking Catholics if we are "born again," admonishing us that unless we are "born again" we cannot be saved. But you see, Catholics, like St. John the Evangelist in the third chapter of his Gospel, relate the phrase "born again" to the results of Baptism. Baptism is how we enter into the New Covenant, in the same way the Hebrews and Israelites entered the Old Covenant through circumcision (which, you'll note, was done to infants).

When many Protestants use the phrase "born again," they seem to be referring to an "emotional experience." They often expect instant transformation (which can certainly happen), speaking in tongues, miracles, etc. as some sort of "proof" of having been "born again."

Traditional Catholics most certainly agree that repentance (what we call "metanoia") is necessary and that inner transformation (what we call "theosis" or "sanctification") is the goal, but we are very conscious of not confusing "feelings" with "faith." These are two different things, and mere "feelings" can lie: ask anyone who's ever been "love-bombed" in a cult, experienced cocaine or Ecstasy, been to a Woodstock-like music festival, or is just having a really excellent day. Oceanic "feelings of oneness" and "happiness" can be had in pagan religions (read about Greek and Roman "bachanalias" sometime), through natural or artificial chemicals, through the feeling of "falling in love," through hypnosis, through highly sensual experiences, and other things that have nothing to do, inherently, with Christ. The ancient Greeks babbled in tongues, and glossolalia can is still practiced today among Voudun ("Voodoo") cults, during Japanese seances, and by other false religions and in other cultures all over the world. These sorts of experiences must be discerned, and the spirits must be tested! Remember what Christ said would happen even back in the first century:

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

It is important to test the spirits and not devalue reason and doctrine! Know that the fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance according to Galatians 5:22-23. The fruits of the Spirit are not out of control shaking, screaming, running around, falling down, "holy laughter," vocalizations that don't edify the Church, a "feeling" that doctrine and religion are now unimportant, etc. One should be more in control of one's self after an encounter with the Holy Spirit, not less.

St. Teresa being filled with the Holy Spirit (by Gian Lorenzo Bernini, 17th c.). Catholics would call this experience "being in ecstasy" or "having a mystical encounter."

As to "personal relationship with Jesus, " think of the great Saints -- everyone from Thérèse de Lisieux to St. Francis -- are these people not "born again" in the Protestant sense of "having a deep relationship with Christ" while still remaining 100% believers in traditional Catholic doctrine? Read about the life of St. Patrick and then talk to me about a "personal relationship" with Jesus that some Protestants think Catholics just don't understand.

What of our holy martyrs like Maximilian Kolbe or Nikolaus Gross, murdered by Nazis because of the virtue compelled by their Catholic faith? What about Joan of Arc, martyred for her refusal to deny the divine origins of the voices that led her to defeat the English? If you want "personal relationship with Jesus," read the writings of St. Teresa of Avila or St. John of the Cross!

Have you been saved?

Another question Catholics often hear is, "Have you been saved?" Catholics, though, don't see eternal salvation as a one-time event that one can pinpoint and relate to others by saying, for example, "I was saved at 5:30 pm on 23 October 1988 when I got on my knees and accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior." We think of salvation, ultimately, as a process that is begun with faith and Baptism (or just Baptism in the case of infants) and is then "worked out" (Phillipians 2:12) as we endeavor to "put on Christ." Additionally, we don't see salvation as something that can't be lost (2 Peter 2:20-21). Even St. Paul himself, the one who did more than anyone else to spread the Gospel, wasn't sure of his own salvation. He wrote in 1 Corinthians 9:27

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Who are we to be more "sure of our salvation" than the Apostle Paul?

Most Catholics, of course, are able to speak of specific events such as the first time they truly "got it" that Jesus is Lord or that the Church and its Scriptures are true; many are able to tell specific stories of experiences of the Holy Spirit. Many have wonderful stories of healings, consolation, and miracles. But to speak of "having been saved," in the past tense, is something we tend not to do unless we are speaking about our Baptism, at which time we were first justified. We speak, instead, of "being saved," in the present tense, as we obey Him after Baptism and endeavor to keep accepting the gift of salvation which we could never earn on our own.

Many Protestants tend to see salvation in legal terms: "I believe, therefore, I am saved because that is God's promise to me. As long as I believe, I can't lose my salvation because the terms of the contract are that I simply believe and I will be saved." Catholics see salvation more in terms of kinship, our adoption into God's very family, our becoming, literally, true children of God and inheriting Christ's sonship through Jesus' sacrifice. We see "working out our salvation" as those things we, inspired by the Holy Spirit, are called to do as children of God, in the same way that a child honors an earthly parent -- and we see God's gift of eternal salvation to us as an inheritance from our Father rather than a "pay-off" for having fulfilled a "contract" by a simple assertion of faith. And as a father can "disinherit" a child if that child no longer treats him as father and freely walks away from his inheritance, so our Father in Heaven can "disinherit" those who don't treat Him as Father (Romans 11:22; Galatians 5:4; Hebrews 6:4-6; 2 Peter 3:17-18). For more in-depth information, read the transcript of this debate on "justification" between Scott Hahn, Catholic and former Presbyterian minister, and Dr. Robert Knudson of Westminster Seminary.

To sum up

So, here's how a Catholic would answer the standard questions from Protestants:
 

Q.	Have you been "born again"?
A.	Yes, when we are baptized, we are "born again of water and Spirit" (John 3).
Q.	Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus?
A.	Some Catholics are good Catholics and have a deep personal relationship with Jesus by trusting in Him and receiving His Sacraments. Other Catholics are mere "cultural Catholics" who call themselves "Catholic" because they were baptized once, but don't believe what Christ's Church teaches or don't have the will to practice what His Church commands. Such Catholics are "dead members" of the Church and must be restored by faith and the Sacraments. Instead of the "Sinner's Prayer," each year at the Easter Vigil, Catholics renew their Baptismal promises by rejecting Satan and all of his works, and by affirming their faith in God the Father, in Jesus Christ His only Son our Lord, and in the Holy Ghost. Yes, a Catholic could go through the Vigil by rote and not mean it, just as a person can say the "Sinner's Prayer" and not mean it. Christ is the Judge of men's souls, however, and He knows who truly has faith.
Q.	Have you been "saved"?
A.	Those Catholics who have faith and obey the will of the Father are being saved, by the grace of Christ alone. Catholics who don't have faith and don't obey the will of the Father will not be saved unless they repent and begin to have faith and keep the commandments.
Q.	If you were to die tonight, do you know for an absolute certainty that you would go to Heaven?
A.	No more than St. Paul did when he wrote to the people of Corinth. But we do have the assuredness of knowing that God keeps His promises, that He is good and merciful and just, and that He so loved the world that He sent His only-begotten Son so we might not perish but have everlasting life if we believe, repent, obey, and trust in Jesus.
Q.	By what means are we saved?
A.	By the grace of Christ Whose Blood was poured out for us at Calvary. This Sacrifice is the only means of salvation; by Christ and Christ alone may a man be saved. There is no other way to the Father.
Q.	Why was His Sacrifice necessary? Why did He have to die?
A.	God is infinite Justice and Perfection. Because He is infinite, our sins offend Him infinitely. There is such a chasm between God in His vast perfection and us in our creaturely weakness that nothing we could do could possibly assuage Him for our offenses. But as much as we deserve death, He loves us still and wants us with Him for eternity. In order to restore His honor and maintain the perfection of His justice, there had to be an infinite Sacrifce of appeasement. So, God Himself took on flesh by the Holy Ghost and the Virgin Mary and became man, not only to teach us with His words, but to save us with His Blood. Only God Himself could save us from the effects of our offending Him because we are so imperfect and weak.
Q.	What must we do to accept the fruits of this Sacrifice and be saved?
A.	In three words, "Believe, repent, and obey." We must:  ·         believe and trust in Christ (John 3:16);   ·         repent and be baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost for the remission of sins (Matthew 28:19, John 3:3-5, Acts 2:38);   ·         obey the will of the Father and keep the commandments (Matthew 7:21, Matthew 19:16-19);   ·         eat the Body of Christ (John 6:51-69) -- but not unworthily, and only after discerning the Lord's Body lest we eat damnation onto ourselves (I Corinthians 11:23-30);   ·         judge ourselves (1 Corinthians 11:28-31) and, when we fall, confess our sins to those to whom Christ has given the authority to forgive sins in His Name, and to obey that authority when it comes to what is bound and loosed (Matthew 9:5-8, Matthew 18:18, John 20:21-23, 2 Corinthians 5:18);   ·         love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love our neighbors as ourselves (Mark 12:30-31).

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Relevant Scripture

1 Samuel 2:30
Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one who says to me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 19:16-19
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 4:14-19
The sower sows the word. And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown; when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word which is sown in them. And these in like manner are the ones sown upon rocky ground, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; and they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away. And others are the ones sown among thorns; they are those who hear the word, but the cares of the world, and the delight in riches, and the desire for other things, enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.

John 15:6
If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

John 3:1-7
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him." In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit [Baptism]. You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born again.' [This entire chapter is about baptizing, John the Baptist, "ceremonial washing", etc.]

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 5:28-29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Romans 2:6
God will render to every man according to his WORKS.

Romans 2:13
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS of the law shall be justified.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Romans 8:29-30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. [Note that the verbs here are in the past tense; Paul is undoubtedly referring to those who've died in a state of grace and whose justification and santification have been completed. And don't read this verse out of context of the one that came 12 verses before it -- Romans 8:17, which says that our glorification depends on our suffering along with Christ, and Matthew 22:14 that says "For many are called, but few are chosen." Being "called" doesn't mean automatic justification.]

Romans 9:15
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Romans 10:9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 11:17-23
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again. [In other words, you're "grafted in," a part of the New Covenant -- but don't brag because you can be cut off]

1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind [It doesn't say "unless these people have had the experiences of "feeling saved" or having been born again.]

1 Corinthians 9:27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. [Even Paul wasn't sure of his own salvation!]

I Corinthians 10:8-12
Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. [NIV: "So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!"]

I Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

1 Corinthians 13:13
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. [Charity is greater than Faith!]

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:4
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which WORKETH BY LOVE.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For BY grace are ye saved THROUGH faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Phillipians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Colossians 1:23-24
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of [lacking in] the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church. [the NKJV and the NIV translate this last part accurately as: "and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church."]

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your WORK OF FAITH, and LABOUR OF LOVE, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the WORK OF FAITH with power:

1 Timothy 5:8
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. [RSV: "...worse than an unbeliever." What is being said here is that "believing" is not enough!]

1 Timothy 6:17-19
Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us.

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10:26-29
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

2 Peter 2:20-21
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. [the Greek word for knowledge here is epignosei, which means a knowledge from experience, not just intellectual knowledge, which would be oida. In other words, the people being talked about here "knew Christ", they had a "personal encounter with Christ" and had the experience of "getting saved"; they didn't just simply "know of Him."]

2 Peter 3:17-18
...beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever.

1 John 2:24
Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. [in other words, it is possible not continue in the Father and the Son; it is possible to fall away]

James 1:21-27
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But BE YE DOERS OF THE WORD, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

James 2:14-26
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD ALSO.

James 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

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Further Reading

Temporal and Eternal Salvation Important article on Protestant and Catholic uses of term "faith"
Righteousness and Merit another article highlighting the differences in Catholic and Protestant language
Justification by Faith Alone
Justification in James 2
Salvation Past, Present and Future
Resisting and Cooperating with God
Are all Christians Predestined to Persevere?
The Evangelical notion that Christians can't lose their salvation is unbiblical

 

[daniel1212]

James 2:14-26 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works?...Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works... But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

When will RCs realize that quoting this text in attempting to refute SS actually does not, but is more applicable to Catholics?

While it is precisely the faith behind accompanying works that appropriates justification, Reformers clearly taught that the only faith that is salvific is the kind that effects works of obedience, thus works justify one as having faith.

In his Introduction to Romans, Luther stated that saving faith is, “a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly...Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! [http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-faith.txt] “

This is what I have often said, if faith be true, it will break forth and bear fruit. If the tree is green and good, it will not cease to blossom forth in leaves and fruit. It does this by nature. I need not first command it and say: Look here, tree, bear apples. For if the tree is there and is good, the fruit will follow unbidden. If faith is present works must follow.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:340-341]

More .

To believe is to do, and works is faith in action, thus if one performs an act of faith, such as being baptized, then it can be said that if he does so then he will be saved.

Thus Acts 2:38 promises the latter, while the same Peter tells the lost Gentiles that forgiveness is by believing, and they do and are regenerated before they were baptized, with Peter affirming that God purified their hearts by faith, and using this as supporting being saved by grace. (Acts 15:7-10)

Likewise to be forgiven of sin that one is being punished for is to show the effects thereof.

And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. (Matthew 9:4-6)

Thus which is easier to say,

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." (Acts 10:43)

Or.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

The latter is saying the same as the former, to believe, but as to believe is to confess, thus the "confession with the mouth " in the latter case was in body language. And thus the invalid and mute can be born again, as can those whose justifying heart faith sees immediate confession, which normatively go together.

Baptism can be the occasion of conversion, when one truly comes to saving faith, God drawing, opening the heart and granting repentance, (Jn. 6:44; 12:32; Acts 16:14; 1:18) as well as express it, but not its cause (except as a catalyst due to the faith it signifies and requires).

[Springfield Reformer]

We should have faith in all the words of Jesus, including verse 66, which clearly points us away from the corporeal and directs us to understand this consuming of Christ in spiritual terms, which Peter admirably recognizes in verse 68. In fact, transubstantiation invites us to reject the straightforward sense of those passages, and several others as well, in favor of an obscure and ontologically incoherent remix of Aristotle being channeled by Aquinas. Believe Jesus' words, yes, but not by editing out any of His other words.

Peace,

SR

[metmom]

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

Do YOU have faith to believe that the words Jesus spoke are a spiritual truth and reality without the need for doing a physical action?

Jesus also said this:

John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

There's nothing about eating in here. He just says to simply believe.

Do you have faith to take Him at His word here without adding works to it?

[metmom]

Do you believe these words of God?

Don't eat the blood, the life is in the blood

Genesis 9:4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life , that is, its blood.

Leviticus 3:17 It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations, in all your dwelling places, that you eat neither fat nor blood.”

Leviticus 7:26-27 Moreover, you shall eat no blood whatever, whether of fowl or of animal, in any of your dwelling places. Whoever eats any blood, that person shall be cut off from his people.”

Leviticus 17:10-14 “If any one of the house of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people. For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, No person among you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger who sojourns among you eat blood.

“Any one also of the people of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among them, who takes in hunting any beast or bird that may be eaten shall pour out its blood and cover it with earth. For the life of every creature is its blood: its blood is its life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, You shall not eat the blood of any creature, for the life of every creature is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off.

Leviticus 19:26 “You shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it. You shall not interpret omens or tell fortunes.

Deuteronomy 12:16 Only you shall not eat the blood ; you shall pour it out on the earth like water.

Deuteronomy 12:23 Only be sure that you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life , and you shall not eat the life with the flesh.

Deuteronomy 15:23 Only you shall not eat its blood; you shall pour it out on the ground like water.

Acts 15:12-29 And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,

“‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old.’

Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, with the following letter:

“The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings. Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

Did Jesus drink His own blood and eat His own flesh at the last supper?

How could Jesus command His followers to literally break the Law and sin and bring damnation on themselves?

[NKP_Vet]

Confession works wonders for lapsed Catholics.

[Elsie]

"We are saved by 'Faith alone'":

No!

 

John 6:28-29

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

---

1 John 3:21-24

Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

[metmom]

No need for me to go tell a man who can’t do anything for me anyway.

God hears my prayers and when I confess to Him, who is faithful and just to forgive my sins and cleanse me from ALL unrighteousness, I know he does it. (1 John 1:9)

Christ became sin for me that I am not the righteousness of God in Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:21)

[Elsie]

Those Catholics who have faith and obey the will of the Father are being saved, by the grace of Christ alone.

1 John 2:12-14

¹² I write to you, little children,
    Because your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake.
¹³ I write to you, fathers,
    Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
    Because you have overcome the wicked one.
I write to you, little children,
    Because you have known the Father.
¹⁴ I have written to you, fathers,
    Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.
I have written to you, young men,
    Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,
    And you have overcome the wicked one.

[Elsie]

Looks like speaking in tongues to me...

[Elsie]

But you do not mention the rest of the story.... Jesus gave the keys of the Kingdom to Peter and whatever you bound on earth will be bound in Heaven.... (etc.)

Rest of story?

What has the Church LOOSED lately?

[Elsie]

And I tell thee this in my turn, that thou art Peter, and it is upon this rock that I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it; ...

Matthew 16:13-18

 

 

When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"  

They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."  

"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"  

Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,  the Son of the living God."  

Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.   And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades  will not overcome it.    I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be  bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

 

 

[Iscool]

These wer the words of Jesus: 53Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

You either have faith and believe or you don’t.

Do you have faith in these words?

We all have faith in those words...We also have faith in the rest of the words of scripture, many of which have been presented to you to show you that we do not physically eat the flesh and blood of anyone...

Based on your Catholic indoctrination, you are taught to ignore all those scriptures and only focus on those few verses with tunnel vision...

Mat_22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the same way we eat Jesus' flesh and drink his blood...With our heart, soul and mind...NOT with our mouth and stomach...We are to consume Jesus and all of scripture into our inner being...A spiritual operation...

There is no more a spiritual transformation or operation going on in our soul, mind and spirit when we eat a Catholic wafer than if we eat a banana...Forget the wafer...Eat and drink the REAL flesh and drink the REAL blood of Jesus is the spiritual indwelling of his Spirit...

Jer 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

Eze 3:1 Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel.
Eze 3:2 So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll.
Eze 3:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.
Eze 3:4 And he said unto me, Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with my words unto them.

Rev 10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

Job 23:12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.

Psa 19:10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

Psa 119:103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
Psa 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

When God tells you to eat something that in normal food, you need to look around the scriptures to see what he is referring to...

[MamaB]

Well, it is true.

[daniel1212]

Once again one posting of RC polemics is refuted, only to be followed by another, as RCs seem to have a desperate need to comfort themselves with more specious propaganda. But as here, it once again provides an opportunity to expose it fallacious nature and refute it.

Pt. 1.

The Catholic position on salvation can be summed up thus: We are saved by Christ's grace alone, through faith and works done in charity inspired by the Holy Spirit.

The Catholic position on salvation can be summed up thus: We are saved by Christ's grace thru the merit of works, beginning with justification being based upon one's own holiness via baptism, and thus usually ending with becoming good enough (and atoning for sins) to enter glory via suffering in "purgatory," commencing at death. .

"Although the sinner is justified by the justice of Christ, inasmuch as the Redeemer has merited for him the grace of justification (causa meritoria), nevertheless he is formally justified and made holy by his own personal justice and holiness (causa formalis), just as a philosopher by his own inherent learning becomes a scholar, not, however, by any exterior imputation of the wisdom of God. (Trent, Sess. VI, can. x)." Catholic Encyclopedia >Sanctifying Grace; http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm

"Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification and for the attainment of eternal life (Catechism of the Catholic church, Part 3, Life in Christ, Merit, 2010)

The term “merit” refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members..., (Catechism of the Catholic Church, #2006)

Trent, Canon 32 states,

"If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase of grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory, let him be anathema." (Trent, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 32.

Shortened, this teaches, "If anyone says that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God does not truly merit eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself, let him be anathema."

While Roman Catholic theologians labor to try to articulate the distinction between two ideas of merit, (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10202b.htm) interpreting Trent as to mean “merit” as meaning due to God's faithfulness to reward souls under grace, this distinction is unknown or effectively lost upon almost all of her members (as well as those without), whose natural disposition is to believe they are children of God and who will accepted into glory because they are pretty good people (compared to their neighbors who think likewise).

Which which her doctrine of purgatory only promotes, as it makes one's goodness the basis upon which one may enter Heaven to be with God. CCC 1023:

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

While purification in the life beyond is

through fire and torments or 'purifying' punishments.” (INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA; cp. 1. 1967)

Yet in Scripture in every place which clearly describes the postmortem place or condition of believers it shows it is with the Lord. This includes even all the Thessalonian and Corinthian believers at the Lord's return, and all believers ("we") at death. (Luke 23:43; Acts 7:59; 1Cor. 15:52; 2 Cor 5:8; 1 Th 4:17; 1Jn. 3:2) And in whose presence there is fulness of joy (Ps. 16:11). To God be the glory.

Apart from stressing the depravity of man and his moral destitution by which he may escape Hell and gain Heaven, and his desperate need for a “day of salvation” (2Cor. 6:2) by personal and direct repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus to save Him on His expense and merit, then few man ever come to that point, but will suppose he will enter glory based on his relative goodness, with some mercy thrown in, usually do to his connection with the Catholic church and faith in its presumed power with God.

[daniel1212]

Pt. 2

"We are saved by 'Faith alone'": No! It takes more than simply knowing Jesus is the Messiah to be saved; even the Evil One knows Who Christ is.

And so begins the usual recourse to SS straw men. Who are they trying to refute, "Unitarians?" Rather than refuting SS, the fact is that those who hold most strongly to Scripture being the sole and sufficient supreme authority as being the wholly inspired assured word of God, with its immutable literal moral laws and history, are overall far more committed and conservative than Catholics overall, showing their faith by their works.

The Catholic Church and Her Bible condemn the idea that one can work his way to Heaven on his own merit or that God "owes" a person for doing the right things.

Rather, this is just what the RCC effectually conveys by its emphasis upon justification by one's own holiness via baptism, and becoming good enough to enter glory via purgatory. So that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God truly merits eternal life, as reactionary Trent teaches.

Surely this can be said to be by grace, as meaning by God's grace i became good enough to enter Heaven, but which is not what Scripture means when it teaches that,

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:5)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Ephesians 2:8)

In conversion faith is counted for righteousness, not because the one is baptized and made good holy inside, though he is washed and given a new heart, otherwise Abraham would have to be given a new regenerated heart in order to have been counted righteous. But by exalting God as infinitely holy and abasing oneself as being utterly unworthy to be with God, but counting God's worthy of faith, that He both is able and willing to make you His child, then God counts such a one as just, on Christ's expense and credit.

Before the cross this was effected in recognition of what Christ would do, while after Calvary it is because of the perfect atonement of Christ being made.

Thus,

And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:13-14)

And as with souls after Pentecost, it was not because they were regenerated that they were righteous, as the sinful flesh remained, but because God counted them as being so on Christ's expense and credit.

Something I came across on the Internet demonstrates the obvious importance of works. Below is a (albeit rather smart-alecky) joke letter to a pastor who preaches "faith alone": I now realize that Salvation is through the finished work of Christ ALONE, and not from good works. I am now living as an active homosexual in the freedom of Jesus Christ!

The pastor, almost completely misunderstanding Catholicism but who has an entire ministry devoted to "saving Catholics", responded in part by saying...what Catholics have been saying all along!

Incredibly, in further reliance upon straw men this quote was actually from a site which responds, "Tragically you have completely misunderstood the Gospel of Grace. It is true that a person is not saved by his works and that salvation is completely of grace. However that does not mean that works have nothing to do with salvation," and uses it as representative of a "faith alone" pastor who finally gets what Catholicism teaches.

Yet this response is not contrary to what faith alone has historically taught, but is entirely consistent with it.

In his Introduction to Romans, Luther stated that saving faith is, a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever...Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! [http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-faith.txt]

When many Protestants use the phrase "born again," they seem to be referring to an "emotional experience." They often expect instant transformation (which can certainly happen), speaking in tongues, miracles, etc. as some sort of "proof" of having been "born again"... anyone who's ever been "love-bombed" in a cult, experienced cocaine or Ecstasy, been to a Woodstock-like music festival,

The author somehow confuses tongues, miracles, etc. as an "emotional experience," by which straw man he attacks SS believers as if the Bible did not clearly teach that true conversion results in outward evidences, but that can include such things.

And which again is what characterizes those who hold to the historical view of Scripture most strongly, in contrast to RCs.

The fruits of the Spirit are not out of control shaking, screaming, running around, falling down, "holy laughter," vocalizations that don't edify the Church,

Indeed, and 90% of evangelical pastors reject the "prosperity gospel (Pew) which this is part of, and thus this is much another straw man.

But what the author is really trying to do is attack the evidences of a worshipful heart, that of the typical 45 corporate worship that characterizes much of Evangelical services, before the typical 45 sermon, versus the 45 minute RC liturgy theater with its perfunctory praise and professions. As my former RC priest used to vainly exhort us, "sing like Protestants!" (Some of the charismatics did.)

What the author also needs to do is defend how RC baptismal regeneration can be real when there is no manifest positive difference btwn baptized RC kids and the non-baptized, other things being equal. If anything kids from Catholic schools are the most indifferent to personal exchange about things of the Bible.

Catholics, though, don't see eternal salvation as a one-time event that one can pinpoint and relate to others by saying, for example, "I was saved at 5:30 pm on 23 October 1988 when I got on my knees and accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

Indeed they do not, which is a critical problem. For in Scripture we clearly see that souls did indeed have a "day of salvation," (1Cor. 6:2) < p> Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) (Ephesians 2:5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:5)

" We think of salvation, ultimately, as a process that is begun with faith and Baptism

Indeed, in which as described, they became good enough to enter Heaven (despite yet having a sinful nature), thus often souls like Constantine would not be baptized till on their deathbed, for as they sin afterwards then they must go to purgatory to once again become good enough to be with the Lord.

Thus the baptized are treated as believers after being sprinkled as infants, never hearing preaching in their church that would convict them of their desperate need for salvation, and end in Hell as religious, but sadly, tragically lost - to their eternal horror!!!

This does not mean we do not hold that salvation is also present in the sense of being saved from being like the world by walking in the Spirit, and look forward to being saved in the future full realization. And some perceive the many warnings to believers, warning of departing from the faith and forfeiting what it procured, but one cannot lost what he never had in the first place, which is the state of most Catholics.

[FourtySeven]

For anyone’s benefit:

At the time of the Mosaic Law (and even during Christ’s and our time) Pagans consumed the blood of goats and bulls to take their life for their own. This is because it’s always been believed that in blood there is life. So life is taken from the shed blood.

To prevent the Jews from becoming like Pagans, and really to prevent them from sinning, which is what a desire to take another life for oneself is (that’s a sin against God for only He has the power to take and give life to another), the Law forbade the consuming of blood of bulls and goats.

So that’s why it’s against the Law. Not just because Pagans did it, but because Pagans did it to take life for their own, which is an affront to God. It’s an affront to God because again, only God has the power to give and take life from one to another.

So here we can see how, even assuming only “if” (for indeed He did) God (Jesus) command us to drink His blood it’s not violating the Law. For it’s not the blood of bulls or goats we drink but His blood. And we do not take it from Him, rather we participate in the same self-sacrifice He made of Himself on Calvary. These are important distinctions to remember.

So we do not break the Law by drinking His blood for we do not take it as our own rather it is given to us. That is, His life is given to us. We dont take it by ourselves (as those who sacrificed bulls and goats took the life of that animal for their own).

We receive His life freely given, and that which is given is received. Not taken. And indeed, it’s His to give as He gives all life. He is the Creator, so He can give life as He wills. This is how he chooses to give us His life. This is how even today we can partake of the same self-sacrifice on Calvary. And not break any Law, but rather fulfill the law.

This is just an apologetic. As no one responded to your post other than the other pinged. I’m not looking for argument, just posting something more than what was posted before, not that His Word is lacking, but rather again only in case someone clicked “View Replies” and sought more understanding.

[daniel1212]

At the time of the Mosaic Law (and even during Christ’s and our time) Pagans consumed the blood of goats and bulls to take their life for their own.

It is known they did this at least during the second millennium AD, but do you have documentation for this (not that i deny it)?

To prevent the Jews from becoming like Pagans, and really to prevent them from sinning, which is what a desire to take another life for oneself is (that’s a sin against God for only He has the power to take and give life to another), the Law forbade the consuming of blood of bulls and goats. So that’s why it’s against the Law.

Wrong. While the the injunction against eating blood was based uoon the premise that blood is sacred, thus promoting the sacredness of life, yet the blood they were forbidden to consume was the blood of animals they had already killed, thus it certainly did not prevent death. Nor was it a sin to kill animals for food or sacrifice, and in which the blood was poured out.

Rather the the injunction against eating blood was against consuming it, as it was only to be sacrificed as an atonement:

And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people. For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Leviticus 17:10-11)

Moreover, your other reason, that the law was because the pagans did it, is one liberals use for moral laws. Do you even have official teaching that argues as you do, or is this just another example of the variety of interpretations RCs can use in seeking to defend Rome?

So here we can see how, even assuming only “if” (for indeed He did) God (Jesus) command us to drink His blood it’s not violating the Law.

As your premise is wrong, so is your conclusion. As not even the priest could drink the blood, as it was only to be used as a sacrifice, so Christ's blood was only shed once, and never physically consumed, esp. to gain the life properties of the one being eaten, which is indeed PAGAN, as in consensual endocannibalism .

[metmom]

FOTFLOL!!!!!

[metmom]

The Catholic position on salvation can be summed up thus: We are saved by Christ's grace alone, through faith and works done in charity inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:4-9 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

[metmom]

Rationalize all you want.

The Law forbids the eating of blood and God constantly told the Jews to not become like the nations around them.

So how could He now demand that they do by instituting the consuming of blood.

Besides, Jesus’ blood was poured out at the cross. It doesn’t exist any more. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven.

So the question becomes, whose blood are you drinking then?