Posted on 09/13/2014 10:57:00 AM PDT by Salvation
When will RCs realize that quoting this text in attempting to refute SS actually does not, but is more applicable to Catholics?
While it is precisely the faith behind accompanying works that appropriates justification, Reformers clearly taught that the only faith that is salvific is the kind that effects works of obedience, thus works justify one as having faith.
In his Introduction to Romans, Luther stated that saving faith is, “a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly...Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! [http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-faith.txt] “
This is what I have often said, if faith be true, it will break forth and bear fruit. If the tree is green and good, it will not cease to blossom forth in leaves and fruit. It does this by nature. I need not first command it and say: Look here, tree, bear apples. For if the tree is there and is good, the fruit will follow unbidden. If faith is present works must follow.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:340-341]
More .
To believe is to do, and works is faith in action, thus if one performs an act of faith, such as being baptized, then it can be said that if he does so then he will be saved.
Thus Acts 2:38 promises the latter, while the same Peter tells the lost Gentiles that forgiveness is by believing, and they do and are regenerated before they were baptized, with Peter affirming that God purified their hearts by faith, and using this as supporting being saved by grace. (Acts 15:7-10)
Likewise to be forgiven of sin that one is being punished for is to show the effects thereof.
And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. (Matthew 9:4-6)
Thus which is easier to say,
"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." (Acts 10:43)
Or.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)
The latter is saying the same as the former, to believe, but as to believe is to confess, thus the "confession with the mouth " in the latter case was in body language. And thus the invalid and mute can be born again, as can those whose justifying heart faith sees immediate confession, which normatively go together.
Baptism can be the occasion of conversion, when one truly comes to saving faith, God drawing, opening the heart and granting repentance, (Jn. 6:44; 12:32; Acts 16:14; 1:18) as well as express it, but not its cause (except as a catalyst due to the faith it signifies and requires).
Peace,
SR
Do YOU have faith to believe that the words Jesus spoke are a spiritual truth and reality without the need for doing a physical action?
Jesus also said this:
John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
There's nothing about eating in here. He just says to simply believe.
Do you have faith to take Him at His word here without adding works to it?
Don't eat the blood, the life is in the blood
Genesis 9:4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life , that is, its blood.
Leviticus 3:17 It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations, in all your dwelling places, that you eat neither fat nor blood.”
Leviticus 7:26-27 Moreover, you shall eat no blood whatever, whether of fowl or of animal, in any of your dwelling places. Whoever eats any blood, that person shall be cut off from his people.”
Leviticus 17:10-14 “If any one of the house of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people. For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, No person among you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger who sojourns among you eat blood.
“Any one also of the people of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among them, who takes in hunting any beast or bird that may be eaten shall pour out its blood and cover it with earth. For the life of every creature is its blood: its blood is its life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, You shall not eat the blood of any creature, for the life of every creature is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off.
Leviticus 19:26 “You shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it. You shall not interpret omens or tell fortunes.
Deuteronomy 12:16 Only you shall not eat the blood ; you shall pour it out on the earth like water.
Deuteronomy 12:23 Only be sure that you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life , and you shall not eat the life with the flesh.
Deuteronomy 15:23 Only you shall not eat its blood; you shall pour it out on the ground like water.
Acts 15:12-29 And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,
“‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old.’
Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”
Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, with the following letter:
“The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings. Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”
Did Jesus drink His own blood and eat His own flesh at the last supper?
How could Jesus command His followers to literally break the Law and sin and bring damnation on themselves?
Confession works wonders for lapsed Catholics.
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
1 John 3:21-24
Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.
No need for me to go tell a man who can’t do anything for me anyway.
God hears my prayers and when I confess to Him, who is faithful and just to forgive my sins and cleanse me from ALL unrighteousness, I know he does it. (1 John 1:9)
Christ became sin for me that I am not the righteousness of God in Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:21)
1 John 2:12-14
12 I write to you, little children,
Because your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake.
13 I write to you, fathers,
Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
Because you have overcome the wicked one.
I write to you, little children,
Because you have known the Father.
14 I have written to you, fathers,
Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.
I have written to you, young men,
Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,
And you have overcome the wicked one.
Looks like speaking in tongues to me...
Rest of story?
What has the Church LOOSED lately?
You either have faith and believe or you don’t.
Do you have faith in these words?
We all have faith in those words...We also have faith in the rest of the words of scripture, many of which have been presented to you to show you that we do not physically eat the flesh and blood of anyone...
Based on your Catholic indoctrination, you are taught to ignore all those scriptures and only focus on those few verses with tunnel vision...
Mat_22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the same way we eat Jesus' flesh and drink his blood...With our heart, soul and mind...NOT with our mouth and stomach...We are to consume Jesus and all of scripture into our inner being...A spiritual operation...
There is no more a spiritual transformation or operation going on in our soul, mind and spirit when we eat a Catholic wafer than if we eat a banana...Forget the wafer...Eat and drink the REAL flesh and drink the REAL blood of Jesus is the spiritual indwelling of his Spirit...
Jer 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.
Eze 3:1 Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel.
Eze 3:2 So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll.
Eze 3:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.
Eze 3:4 And he said unto me, Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with my words unto them.
Rev 10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
Job 23:12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.
Psa 19:10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
Psa 119:103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
Psa 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
When God tells you to eat something that in normal food, you need to look around the scriptures to see what he is referring to...
Well, it is true.
Pt. 1.
The Catholic position on salvation can be summed up thus: We are saved by Christ's grace alone, through faith and works done in charity inspired by the Holy Spirit.
The Catholic position on salvation can be summed up thus: We are saved by Christ's grace thru the merit of works, beginning with justification being based upon one's own holiness via baptism, and thus usually ending with becoming good enough (and atoning for sins) to enter glory via suffering in "purgatory," commencing at death. .
"Although the sinner is justified by the justice of Christ, inasmuch as the Redeemer has merited for him the grace of justification (causa meritoria), nevertheless he is formally justified and made holy by his own personal justice and holiness (causa formalis), just as a philosopher by his own inherent learning becomes a scholar, not, however, by any exterior imputation of the wisdom of God. (Trent, Sess. VI, can. x)." Catholic Encyclopedia >Sanctifying Grace; http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm
"Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification and for the attainment of eternal life (Catechism of the Catholic church, Part 3, Life in Christ, Merit, 2010)
The term “merit” refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members..., (Catechism of the Catholic Church, #2006)
Trent, Canon 32 states,
"If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase of grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory, let him be anathema." (Trent, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 32.
Shortened, this teaches, "If anyone says that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God does not truly merit eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself, let him be anathema."
While Roman Catholic theologians labor to try to articulate the distinction between two ideas of merit, (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10202b.htm) interpreting Trent as to mean “merit” as meaning due to God's faithfulness to reward souls under grace, this distinction is unknown or effectively lost upon almost all of her members (as well as those without), whose natural disposition is to believe they are children of God and who will accepted into glory because they are pretty good people (compared to their neighbors who think likewise).
Which which her doctrine of purgatory only promotes, as it makes one's goodness the basis upon which one may enter Heaven to be with God. CCC 1023:
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
While purification in the life beyond is
through fire and torments or 'purifying' punishments.” (INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA; cp. 1. 1967)
Yet in Scripture in every place which clearly describes the postmortem place or condition of believers it shows it is with the Lord. This includes even all the Thessalonian and Corinthian believers at the Lord's return, and all believers ("we") at death. (Luke 23:43; Acts 7:59; 1Cor. 15:52; 2 Cor 5:8; 1 Th 4:17; 1Jn. 3:2) And in whose presence there is fulness of joy (Ps. 16:11). To God be the glory.
Apart from stressing the depravity of man and his moral destitution by which he may escape Hell and gain Heaven, and his desperate need for a “day of salvation” (2Cor. 6:2) by personal and direct repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus to save Him on His expense and merit, then few man ever come to that point, but will suppose he will enter glory based on his relative goodness, with some mercy thrown in, usually do to his connection with the Catholic church and faith in its presumed power with God.
"We are saved by 'Faith alone'": No! It takes more than simply knowing Jesus is the Messiah to be saved; even the Evil One knows Who Christ is.
And so begins the usual recourse to SS straw men. Who are they trying to refute, "Unitarians?" Rather than refuting SS, the fact is that those who hold most strongly to Scripture being the sole and sufficient supreme authority as being the wholly inspired assured word of God, with its immutable literal moral laws and history, are overall far more committed and conservative than Catholics overall, showing their faith by their works.
The Catholic Church and Her Bible condemn the idea that one can work his way to Heaven on his own merit or that God "owes" a person for doing the right things.
Rather, this is just what the RCC effectually conveys by its emphasis upon justification by one's own holiness via baptism, and becoming good enough to enter glory via purgatory. So that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God truly merits eternal life, as reactionary Trent teaches.
Surely this can be said to be by grace, as meaning by God's grace i became good enough to enter Heaven, but which is not what Scripture means when it teaches that,
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:5)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Ephesians 2:8)
In conversion faith is counted for righteousness, not because the one is baptized and made good holy inside, though he is washed and given a new heart, otherwise Abraham would have to be given a new regenerated heart in order to have been counted righteous. But by exalting God as infinitely holy and abasing oneself as being utterly unworthy to be with God, but counting God's worthy of faith, that He both is able and willing to make you His child, then God counts such a one as just, on Christ's expense and credit.
Before the cross this was effected in recognition of what Christ would do, while after Calvary it is because of the perfect atonement of Christ being made.
Thus,
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:13-14)
And as with souls after Pentecost, it was not because they were regenerated that they were righteous, as the sinful flesh remained, but because God counted them as being so on Christ's expense and credit.
Something I came across on the Internet demonstrates the obvious importance of works. Below is a (albeit rather smart-alecky) joke letter to a pastor who preaches "faith alone": I now realize that Salvation is through the finished work of Christ ALONE, and not from good works. I am now living as an active homosexual in the freedom of Jesus Christ!
The pastor, almost completely misunderstanding Catholicism but who has an entire ministry devoted to "saving Catholics", responded in part by saying...what Catholics have been saying all along!
Incredibly, in further reliance upon straw men this quote was actually from a site which responds, "Tragically you have completely misunderstood the Gospel of Grace. It is true that a person is not saved by his works and that salvation is completely of grace. However that does not mean that works have nothing to do with salvation," and uses it as representative of a "faith alone" pastor who finally gets what Catholicism teaches.
Yet this response is not contrary to what faith alone has historically taught, but is entirely consistent with it.
In his Introduction to Romans, Luther stated that saving faith is, a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever...Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! [http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-faith.txt]
When many Protestants use the phrase "born again," they seem to be referring to an "emotional experience." They often expect instant transformation (which can certainly happen), speaking in tongues, miracles, etc. as some sort of "proof" of having been "born again"... anyone who's ever been "love-bombed" in a cult, experienced cocaine or Ecstasy, been to a Woodstock-like music festival,
The author somehow confuses tongues, miracles, etc. as an "emotional experience," by which straw man he attacks SS believers as if the Bible did not clearly teach that true conversion results in outward evidences, but that can include such things.
And which again is what characterizes those who hold to the historical view of Scripture most strongly, in contrast to RCs.
The fruits of the Spirit are not out of control shaking, screaming, running around, falling down, "holy laughter," vocalizations that don't edify the Church,
Indeed, and 90% of evangelical pastors reject the "prosperity gospel (Pew) which this is part of, and thus this is much another straw man.
But what the author is really trying to do is attack the evidences of a worshipful heart, that of the typical 45 corporate worship that characterizes much of Evangelical services, before the typical 45 sermon, versus the 45 minute RC liturgy theater with its perfunctory praise and professions. As my former RC priest used to vainly exhort us, "sing like Protestants!" (Some of the charismatics did.)
What the author also needs to do is defend how RC baptismal regeneration can be real when there is no manifest positive difference btwn baptized RC kids and the non-baptized, other things being equal. If anything kids from Catholic schools are the most indifferent to personal exchange about things of the Bible.
Catholics, though, don't see eternal salvation as a one-time event that one can pinpoint and relate to others by saying, for example, "I was saved at 5:30 pm on 23 October 1988 when I got on my knees and accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.
Indeed they do not, which is a critical problem. For in Scripture we clearly see that souls did indeed have a "day of salvation," (1Cor. 6:2) < p> Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) (Ephesians 2:5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:5)
" We think of salvation, ultimately, as a process that is begun with faith and Baptism
Indeed, in which as described, they became good enough to enter Heaven (despite yet having a sinful nature), thus often souls like Constantine would not be baptized till on their deathbed, for as they sin afterwards then they must go to purgatory to once again become good enough to be with the Lord.
Thus the baptized are treated as believers after being sprinkled as infants, never hearing preaching in their church that would convict them of their desperate need for salvation, and end in Hell as religious, but sadly, tragically lost - to their eternal horror!!!
This does not mean we do not hold that salvation is also present in the sense of being saved from being like the world by walking in the Spirit, and look forward to being saved in the future full realization. And some perceive the many warnings to believers, warning of departing from the faith and forfeiting what it procured, but one cannot lost what he never had in the first place, which is the state of most Catholics.
For anyone’s benefit:
At the time of the Mosaic Law (and even during Christ’s and our time) Pagans consumed the blood of goats and bulls to take their life for their own. This is because it’s always been believed that in blood there is life. So life is taken from the shed blood.
To prevent the Jews from becoming like Pagans, and really to prevent them from sinning, which is what a desire to take another life for oneself is (that’s a sin against God for only He has the power to take and give life to another), the Law forbade the consuming of blood of bulls and goats.
So that’s why it’s against the Law. Not just because Pagans did it, but because Pagans did it to take life for their own, which is an affront to God. It’s an affront to God because again, only God has the power to give and take life from one to another.
So here we can see how, even assuming only “if” (for indeed He did) God (Jesus) command us to drink His blood it’s not violating the Law. For it’s not the blood of bulls or goats we drink but His blood. And we do not take it from Him, rather we participate in the same self-sacrifice He made of Himself on Calvary. These are important distinctions to remember.
So we do not break the Law by drinking His blood for we do not take it as our own rather it is given to us. That is, His life is given to us. We dont take it by ourselves (as those who sacrificed bulls and goats took the life of that animal for their own).
We receive His life freely given, and that which is given is received. Not taken. And indeed, it’s His to give as He gives all life. He is the Creator, so He can give life as He wills. This is how he chooses to give us His life. This is how even today we can partake of the same self-sacrifice on Calvary. And not break any Law, but rather fulfill the law.
This is just an apologetic. As no one responded to your post other than the other pinged. I’m not looking for argument, just posting something more than what was posted before, not that His Word is lacking, but rather again only in case someone clicked “View Replies” and sought more understanding.
It is known they did this at least during the second millennium AD, but do you have documentation for this (not that i deny it)?
To prevent the Jews from becoming like Pagans, and really to prevent them from sinning, which is what a desire to take another life for oneself is (that’s a sin against God for only He has the power to take and give life to another), the Law forbade the consuming of blood of bulls and goats. So that’s why it’s against the Law.
Wrong. While the the injunction against eating blood was based uoon the premise that blood is sacred, thus promoting the sacredness of life, yet the blood they were forbidden to consume was the blood of animals they had already killed, thus it certainly did not prevent death. Nor was it a sin to kill animals for food or sacrifice, and in which the blood was poured out.
Rather the the injunction against eating blood was against consuming it, as it was only to be sacrificed as an atonement:
And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people. For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Leviticus 17:10-11)
Moreover, your other reason, that the law was because the pagans did it, is one liberals use for moral laws. Do you even have official teaching that argues as you do, or is this just another example of the variety of interpretations RCs can use in seeking to defend Rome?
So here we can see how, even assuming only “if” (for indeed He did) God (Jesus) command us to drink His blood it’s not violating the Law.
As your premise is wrong, so is your conclusion. As not even the priest could drink the blood, as it was only to be used as a sacrifice, so Christ's blood was only shed once, and never physically consumed, esp. to gain the life properties of the one being eaten, which is indeed PAGAN, as in consensual endocannibalism .
FOTFLOL!!!!!
Ephesians 2:4-9 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Rationalize all you want.
The Law forbids the eating of blood and God constantly told the Jews to not become like the nations around them.
So how could He now demand that they do by instituting the consuming of blood.
Besides, Jesus’ blood was poured out at the cross. It doesn’t exist any more. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven.
So the question becomes, whose blood are you drinking then?
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