Posted on 06/08/2014 8:26:19 PM PDT by Phinneous
Jews defending Judaism with the best defense...
This is 77 minutes long, but Jews-- give a listen. Christians-- I know some Freepers are very-well-versed in OT and NT, AND in counter-refuting Jews for Judaism doctrine. Care to refute?
I’ll listen later, but if Jesus didn’t rise from the dead would Saul have become Paul and thousands of Believers die as martyrs in the roman arenas?
He’s an idiot. I skipped a little forward here and there and started listening to sections of his presentation. He doesn’t know as much as he thinks he knows.
Christ was exactly who he claimed to be or he was THE largest Hoax ever perpetrated on the entire recorded history of Humankind.
Why?
Why parse the NT?
Why argue with someone who does?
So, the fact that this guy doesn't provide the context of the situation and strongly implies (well, outright states) a result different from what actually happened makes me question his motives and honesty.
You should question his motives. He’s not very honest intellectually. He’s not very precise either.
Does he address Isaiah 53?
Jews for Judaism? Welcome to Christianity disguised as Judaism and have a ham sandwich!
Also, Psalm 22, Daniel 9, Zech 12. Those are just off the top of my head.
Eveybody needs a rabbi. The Christians and Esau have their defied, renegade (in a good way), rappin’ rabbi and the Jews and Jacob have their own.
2.2 billion-strong hoax?
The CLAIM is the whole class. He strives to prove that Jesus himself didn’t claim to be son of G-d, and that, for instance, where he says “I and the Father are one” is one of many mistranslations. In this case, “one” being from a Greek word meaning “at or as one.”
And after establishing Jesus’ authentic Torah Judaism, he tries to show the apostles as increasingly open to absorbing new ideas and customs (pagan, for instance) to increase follower-ship, and as increasingly anti-semitic to make a distinction.
Lastly, he touts standard Jewish orthodoxy (Maimonedes, etc) that Christianity and Islam are part of G-d’s plan to “format” the entire world for monotheism (well, except for the pesky Hindus and Buddhists.)
I for one, see the logic and agree with him completely. But I’m sure there are Christian soldiers and special forces in Free Republic who know all of the wiley rabbi’s tricks...
No doubt, his motives are to refute all of Christendom. No sarcasm at all...
Do we LOL and smiley on FR?
LOL :)
He also implies that Jesus is dead and did not rise from the dead as a basis for that part of his talk, when in reality Jesus rose on the third day, a fact known to His apostles by merit of the fact that He appeared and spoke to them repeatedly after His resurrection, and ascended into heaven after a short time, in full view of His apostles.
Jews throughout the ages have argues with Christians over the proof-texts you bring. We even keep the Christian chapter and verse in our own books of the Bible as a convention for arguing. Your questions are all addressed at length on Jews for Judaism website (as classes and some as essays) but I’m sure, as was the basis for my post (besides for galvanizing the stalwart Freeper Jews,) that there are counter-counter arguments to all of the classes on specific “Proof-of-Jesus-in-Jewish-scripture arguments here:
(scroll down to the lower left of the page)
http://www.jewsforjudaism.ca/multimedia/audio
As for Judaism in general, it is so filled with stupid oral traditions that I actually even consider it worse than the absurdities of Mormonism. For example:
From the Babylonian Talmud, the earth, and even heaven must bow to the majority decision of the Rabbis:
"If a man made an oven out of separate coils [of clay, placing one upon another], then put sand between each of the coils [1] — such an oven, R. Eliezer declared, is not susceptible to defilement, while the sages declared it susceptible.[2]
It is taught: On that day R. Eliezer brought forward every imaginable argument, but the Sages did not accept any of them. Finally he said to them: "If the Halakhah (religious law) is in accordance with me, let this carob tree prove it!" Sure enough the carob tree immediately uprooted itself and moved one hundred cubits, and some say 400 cubits, from its place. "No proof can be brought from a carob tree," they retorted.
And again he said to them "If the Halakhah agrees with me, let the channel of water prove it!" Sure enough, the channel of water flowed backward. "No proof can be brought from a channel of water," they rejoined.
Again he urged, "If the Halakhah agrees with me, let the walls of the house of study prove it!" Sure enough, the walls tilted as if to fall. But R. Joshua, rebuked the walls, saying, "When disciples of the wise are engaged in a halakhic dispute, what right have you to interfere?" Hence in deference to R. Joshua they did not fall and in deference to R. Eliezer they did not resume their upright position; they are still standing aslant.
Again R. Eliezer then said to the Sages, "If the Halakhah agrees with me, let it be proved from heaven." Sure enough, a divine voice cried out, "Why do you dispute with R. Eliezer, with whom the Halakhah always agrees?" R. Joshua stood up and protested: "The Torah is not in heaven!" (Deut. 30:12). We pay no attention to a divine voice because long ago at Mount Sinai You wrote in your Torah at Mount Sinai, `After the majority must one incline'. (Ex. 23:2)"
R. Nathan met [the prophet] Elijah [3] and asked him, "What did the Holy One do at that moment?" Elijah: "He laughed [with joy], saying, 'My children have defeated Me, My children have defeated Me.'" (Babylonian Talmud, Baba Metzia 59b, http://jhom.com/topics/voice/bat_kol_bab.htm)
From the Zohar, Chapter 6, Portion Noach, titled: “If Adam had not sinned, he would not have begotten any offspring.”
"35. Come and behold: if Adam had brought generations with him from the Garden of Eden, they would have lived for generations. And the light of the moon, WHICH REFERS TO THE LIGHT OF MALCHUT, would have never been darkened. And all would have lived forever; and not even the angels above could have stood before them and borne their light, brilliance and wisdom. As it is written: “In the image of Elohim He created him” (Beresheet 1:27). But because he was the cause of the sin, he had to leave the Garden of Eden and bear children outside. So his generations did not last BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT FIT.
Rabbi Chizkiyah then asked: How could they have begotten offspring there IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN? Had the Evil Inclination not been drawn down on him and he sinned, he would have dwelled alone in the world and would have not begotten any offspring! The same applies to Yisrael; had they not sinned by the golden calf and drawn upon themselves the Evil Inclination AFTER ACCEPTING THE TORAH, they also would have never borne any offspring, and no new generations would have come into the world. The main point is that the power of mating derives mainly from the Evil Inclination. So without the Evil Inclination there can be no offspring.
He said to him: Had Adam not sinned, he would not have borne offspring from the side of the Evil Inclination, but he would have borne them from the side of the Holy Spirit. But because he produced offspring only from the side of the Evil Inclination, all the offspring of mankind are born from the side of the Evil Inclination. They have no permanent existence therefore, because the Other Side has been mixed with them.
But if Adam had not sinned and had not been driven out of the Garden of Eden, he would have begotten offspring from the side of the Spirit of the holy of holies. And they would have been as the supreme angels, and lived generations upon generations as angels do above. THIS MEANS THAT THERE ARE TWO KINDS OF MATING: ONE IS THE SPIRITUAL MATING OF THE ANGELS; THE SECOND IS THE MATING OF YESOD FOR THE SOULS. THAT NEED FOR THE EVIL INCLINATION RELATES ONLY TO THE MATING OF YESOD AND NOT TO THE SPIRITUAL MATING THAT COMES FROM THE SIDE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. But because he sinned and begot children outside the Garden of Eden and he did not merit to beget them in the Garden of Eden, therefore they did not survive even only to take root in this world until Noah came and went into the ark. And from the ark all descending generations of mankind emerged and spread to all four corners of the earth" (Zohar, Chapter 6, Portion Noach “If Adam had not sinned, he would not have begotten any offspring.”)
The Rabbis take the time to explain how to properly urinate (not supposed to touch your willy):
"R. Zera also said: I saw R. Abbahu put his hand near his buttocks,2 but do not know whether he touched them or not. It is obvious that he did not touch them, for it was taught, R. Eliezer said: He who holds his membrum and passes water is as though he brought a flood upon the world?" (Babylonian Talmud, Shabbath 41a)
Rather than lecturing us on the Old Testament or criticizing the New, religious Jews should wonder why God brought the Temple and Jerusalem to ruin in 70AD, which still today is trampled upon by non-Jews, exactly as Christ and the Prophet Daniel predicted.
Hey, he did at least give the benefit of the doubt and preface that we would take Acts as truthful for the purpose of the discussion... So give him a break for that.
Jews don’t believe any of it, he’s just cross-examining. No hidden tricks here— I want counter-arguments to see if we Jews have the ready-answers to them.
Roger that— apostles saw resurrection.
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