Posted on 05/28/2014 7:41:25 PM PDT by ReformationFan
The ignorance of this statement is that Calvin didn't even invent his doctrines. Luther wrote the same thing in his Bondage of the Will, as did Augustine in his anti-Pelagian books. Calvin's views were the views of the Reformation.
I find that most people, especially those who claim to have studied the most on it, are breathtakingly ignorant on even the most basic definitions or facts of history. I suspect it might either be that they take their studies on websites that reinforce their views rather than sticking to the scripture or checking the source texts they hate.
It is safe to assume then that whoever seeks God has been called out by God...All church attending Catholics then are closet Calvinists...
“Around 1553, Calvin began an epistolary relationship with Michael Servetus, ...In time their correspondence grew more heated until Calvin ended it.”
And then he had Servetus burned at the stake. Heated correspondence indeed.
You're suggesting that all who attend church are seeking God, and that is not necessarily true. Churches are full of unregenerate attendees and members, who are seeking after their own righteousness. Churches are also populated by saved people who, instead of being teachers, (Hebrews 5:12) ...need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again..."
It is amazing the ignorance of the modern church.
And you don't see a big red flag problem here, (not personal, or that you are unusual) ?
I’m not debating it. Believe as you will. I used to make those same arguments, so I know where you are coming from. I even bought a complete set of J. Vernon McGee’s commentaries decades ago and went through the Bible with him. We likely had many of the same influences.
When you stroll into heaven singing I have decided to follow Jesus, I’ll be the one belting out Amazing Grace.
By the way, did you know Calvin had nothing to do with TULIP?
He just really wanted to behead him ...
I don’t know how, but I must have missed that big red flag.
Okay - then again - if we’re predestined then those who are predestined for Hell no matter what then what do we need Yashua for? What what His death all about.
Well it’s all in the commentaries of Calvin and on Calvin. Bottom line, if the Bible says there are those that are predestined for Hell then no matter what they do i.e. believing in Yashua and believe in salvation then there’s no hope for them. You can’t un-predestin yourself.
You are correct, we are ALL objects of his wrath, destined for the Lake of Fire. Were it not for His mercy to save some, ALL would perish.
Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Jesus died to take away the sins of the elect, satisfying the Justice of God.
Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Romans 3: 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—
26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
Straw man argument. No one can believe on Jesus unless God enables them.
1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 16:17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
John 6:37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
God enables everyone to be able to believe in Jesus.
THANK YOU very much. Nice to have clarity.
One last thing before I get caught up in my day, I strongly caution you against engaging in debates on Calvinism. Don’t study God’s Word to disprove it either because you will be playing with fire. One of the best ways I know to eventually become a Calvinist is to rail against it. If you don’t want to believe it, don’t argue against it.
Very few people in my Baptist church grew up believing the Doctrines of Grace. We are made up of people who were typical Southern Baptists (as I was), Methodists, Pentecostals, Roman Catholics, Church of Christ, etc. Almost every single person I have discussed it with will say that at one time they too scoffed at “Calvinism” and that includes our pastor. He had attended seminary and pastored churches before he understood Divine Sovereignty. That was more than forty years ago and since that time he has been used mightily of the Lord. He is an humble man who has never promoted himself, but today his work actively impacts countless people in countless countries on three continents.
Of course I’m telling you to be careful with tongue planted firmly in cheek. That said, what I’m saying is true. Almost everyone I know who has come to be a “Calvinist” as an adult started off by arguing with someone in support of some form of free will theology. The most bold, fearless, and effective evangelists I know are former Arminians who discovered God’s sovereignty. The foreign mission field is full of believers just like that. I know a group of people just like that who are in a very dangerous place in a foreign country as I type. There have been murders in the streets since they arrived. I also know a man who went from railing against Calvinism to literally hacking his way through foreign jungles with a machete in search of some of God’s lost sheep. Emboldened by God’s sovereignty, he has given decades and risked life and limb spreading the gospel to isolated people groups. Two weeks ago I heard a former Pentecostal speak about a sidewalk ministry she has become involved in. She is half my age, yet her boldness in witnessing to extremely antagonistic lost people puts me to shame. After becoming a Calvinist she has become a fearless laborer in the field for the Lord of the harvest.
Remember, “A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.” (Proverbs 16:9)
May God bless you, FRiend.
Scripture reference to support that assertion?
James 1:21 : Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all fnthat remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls.
Isa. 1:18 : “Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD, “Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool.
Deut 30:19 : “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
Joshua 24:15 : “If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
Psalm 119:30, 111, 173 : "I have CHOSEN The Way of Truth: Thy Judgments have I laid before me....Thy Testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for They are the rejoicing of my heart....Let Thine hand help me; for I have chosen Thy Precepts."
“The most bold, fearless, and effective evangelists I know are former Arminians who discovered God’s sovereignty.”
I do not deny God’s sovereignty. I acknowledge it. God chose the means of salvation, and Calvin doesn’t get to rewrite God’s will.
No one reading’s the Bible without outside influence would ever conclude God created a list of names He will irresistibly save and a list He will irresistibly damn. That concept was derived from philosophy, not scripture.
In hundreds of verses, it is clearly taught that we gain access to God’s grace through FAITH, not SELECTION (or election). When God commands us to repent, He is not lying to us. There is no “secret will” of God, not revealed in scripture but true, that God is joking when He calls us to repent, knowing that we cannot and will not unless He forces us to do so.
The teachings of Calvin (and Augustine) make God a liar. We are saved by grace through faith, not grace through election. Calvin cannot change that. Faith is our response to God, not something God gives to some and refuses to allow to others, unless those others have already rejected God’s offer first. Thus Jesus talks of “finding” faith, not “giving” it, and berates those without faith.
On the thread, which I haven’t read this morning yet, you’ve mentioned John 6:44...but it does not say what Calvin taught it to say. I suggest some reading here:
http://evangelicalarminians.org/john-6-and-calvinism-in-fresh-perspective/
http://evangelicalarminians.org/proof-texting-presuppositions-with-john-644-65/
http://evangelicalarminians.org/does-john-6-44-teach-irresistible-grace/
You throw one verse, and I threw another, but somehow the verse I used was deficient to the one you used. Interesting logic you use.
But the reality is those two verses are in conflict. Your theology must bring all of Scripture together. You simply cannot ignore a verse that doesn't comport to your man-made beliefs.
Later
And by the way, Christ HIMSELF said "This IS my body" a number of
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