Posted on 03/14/2014 4:23:52 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
The Thousand Year Reign of Christ on Earth: Is it Biblical?
This is the passage in question:
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Rev 20:4-6 KJV)
There are two events noticeably absent from the passage:
1) There is no mention of a reign on earth of any kind.
2) There is no time limit placed on Christ's reign: it only states that those who are resurrected reign with Christ for "1000 years."
The first item should be apparent from some of Jesus' last words on earth:
"My kingdom is not of this world…" (John 18:36 KJV).
… and from some of his first words after his ascension, where he is speaking from his throne:
"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." (Rev 3:21 KJV)
But there are numerous other indicators, for example:
"The Lord hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all." (Ps 103:19 KJV)
"The Lord is in his holy temple, the Lord's throne is in heaven…" (Ps 11:4 KJV)
"Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?" (Isa 66:1 KJV)
"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:" (Heb 9:24 KJV)
"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool." (Heb 10:12-13 KJV)
"Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him." (1 Pet 3:22 KJV)
Many of those same items also explain the second item: that Christ reigns forever. But there are many more:
"Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever… " (Isa 9:7 KJV)
"Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah." (Ps 89:4 KJV)
"His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven." (Ps 89:29 KJV)
"His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah." (Ps 89:36-37 KJV)
"The king that faithfully judgeth the poor, his throne shall be established for ever." (Pro 29:14 KJV)
So, it should be apparent that Christ reigns forever from his throne in heaven. But what is the disposition of those resurrected during the first resurrection? Paul explains it this way:
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Th 4:16-18 KJV)
According to Paul, those of the first resurrection are not coming back to earth. Therefore, it is safe to conclude that if there is a limited "1000 year reign" by Christ and his saints on this earth, they will reign from heaven, and not from earthly thrones and/or habitats.
I believe the more logical conclusion is that Christ reigns over the earth from his throne in heaven, forever; and those of the first resurrection reign with him, as servants and priests, either forever (they are with Him forever,) or until their services are no longer needed (for example, until Satan is defeated.)
Philip
This is the point you start railing against Darby and Scofield.
At some point Nazis will be invoked, and the thread will be pretty much over.
"Coming with clouds," in one manner or another, is old testament imagery for coming in judgment or power.
But who is "every eye?" That is certainly a reasonable question. Do you think every eye in the world will see Christ? If so, how do you think that might happen?
It is interesting that in the Revelation the scope has changed to "every eye" seeing him, from "only the tribes of Israel" seeing him in the gospel of Matthew. Maybe the book of Revelation was not written for those of us 2000 years distant; but for the early Christians, who were mostly Jews, and were, say, those members of the seven Churches of Asia? LOL!
Maybe "every eye" didn't see him, but only those who were the targets of his judgement. This is the same event in Matthew:
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Mat 24:30-31 KJV)
Who are "they?" In those days it could be none other than the tribes of Israel: those of Jerusalem: those of the great city, Babylon the Great, that Jesus had already pronounced judgment upon during his earthly ministry.
Philip
LOL! I would have been worried, if I had been in Judea in AD 67. Jesus warned the Christians, in three different gospels, to flee Judea when they saw the same thing happen to the land of Israel that happen to Israel in the days of Antioch IV:
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:" (Mat 24:15-16 KJV)
"But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:" (Mark 13:14 KJV)
"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto." (Luke 21:20-21 KJV)
Philip
Not in that passage...but:
Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
Rev 5:10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."
>>>At some point Nazis will be invoked, and the thread will be pretty much over.<<<
LOL! They don’t use the Nazi smear that often. It appears they consider the heretic smear a more useful tool in redirection.
Philip
>>>Ireneaus is bat crazy as well as those who confirm his external evidence but Clement and late 19th Century German liberal theologians who deny Paul wrote his epistles are accurate?<<<
When you write “those who confirm his external evidence,” you are not referring to those lazy historians who jumped blindly on the Irenaeus bandwagon, are you?
I don’t know much about Clement. Would you care to elaborate? Is that Clement of Rome, Clement of Alexandria, or Clement Perkins of California?
Philip
The church fathers? They were all "after the fact," like you and I, weren't they? For example, take this statement by Eusebius about James' last hour:
"The aforesaid Scribes and Pharisees therefore placed James upon the pinnacle of the temple, and cried out to him and said: Thou just one, in whom we ought all to have: confidence, forasmuch as the people are led, astray after Jesus, the crucified one, declare to us, what is the gate of Jesus.' And he answered with a loud voice,' Why do ye ask me concerning Jesus, the Son of Man ? He himself sitteth in heaven at the right hand of the great Power, and is about to come upon the clouds of heaven.'" [Ecclesiastical History, Book II, Ch 13, "The Martyrdom of James"]
When Eusebius wrote that James was expecting an imminent return of Christ in the clouds of heaven, do you really think Eusebius knew what he was talking about?
Philip
>>>Rev 5:10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.”<<<
I have read that many times, and I always ask myself, is Christ currently reigning on earth? My answer is always, yes.
Philip
>>>but Clement and late 19th Century German liberal theologians who deny Paul wrote his epistles are accurate?<<<
Please tell us more about the 19th Century German “liberal” theologians. I know nothing about them, and I truly would like to know who are they, and what they wrote to implicate themselves in denying Paul?
Please understand that I read my first book and commentary on the Bible this past August; so I really don’t know what you are talking about.
Thanks,
Philip
>>>Rev 5:10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.”<<<
Douglas. I just realized you are new to this thread. The theme of our discussion was whether or not Christ would return to earth with his saints to reign for one thousand years. Many say yes. I say there is no hard evidence of that happening. There are bits and pieces that might insinuate a physical reign on earth, such as the verse you quoted above; but I believe there is overwhelming evidence in the other direction.
Philip
LOL! They don’t use the Nazi smear that often.
I've seen it come up as early as 20-25 posts in. The Freeper most prone to that now tends to hide behind a caucus designation.
“You are right, but not for the reasons you think. The righteous remnant were resurrected in 70 AD and serve as foundations, gates and/or as priests in the holy temple and city.”
This is just preterist nonsense. There’s nothing in the Bible that says this, and multiple passages with contradict it.
“Coming with clouds,” in one manner or another, is old testament imagery for coming in judgment or power.
Yet, we also have the verses from Acts 1:9-11 that state Jesus was taken to heaven on a literal cloud, and that he will return in the same way, so there is no justification for you trying to interpret it symbolically, other than to twist the meaning of the Bible to fit your own ideas:
“9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
That’s what Preterists do. They have to in order for their isogesis to work. They allegorize so much of scripture as to make the entirety of it meaningless.
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
1 John 5:19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
John 14:30 I will no more talk much with you, for the ruler of this world doth come, and in me he hath nothing;
When Christ was tempted in the wilderness Satan offered the kingdoms of the world. Jesus didn’t contradict him. If Satan wasn’t the ruler of the kingdoms of this world how could he offer them to Christ?
Preterists and many others deny the true words of scripture.
Scripture, Jesus, culture and society say otherwise.
Boogieman wrote: >>>This is just preterist nonsense. There’s nothing in the Bible that says this, and multiple passages with contradict it.<<<
I am no preterist, but if they believe what I wrote, they are at least partly right. You, however, seem to have no clue how the English language is structured. For example, the following passages are all present tense:
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." (Heb 12:22-24 KJV)
"Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, … And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel … And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." (Rev 21:9-10, 12, 14 KJV)
"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Eph 2:19-22 KJV)
That means all those things existed while some or all of the apostles were still alive. And this verse, no matter how you and other futurist attempt to explain it away with jibberish, will always mean the generation of those Jesus was talking to: his disciples:
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." (Mat 24:34 KJV)
I recommend you, and all other futurists, pay attention to what you read, and learn English!
Philip
>>>Yet, we also have the verses from Acts 1:9-11 that state Jesus was taken to heaven on a literal cloud, and that he will return in the same way, so there is no justification for you trying to interpret it symbolically, other than to twist the meaning of the Bible to fit your own ideas:<<<
Why don’t you compare Acts 1:9-11 to Revelation 1:7 and explain to our eager ears how “every eye will see him!”
Philip
I don’t need to explain it. It is prophesied, so it will come to pass. You’ll get your explanation of the exact process the same time the rest of us do, when you see the fulfillment with your own eyes.
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