Posted on 12/28/2013 7:17:56 PM PST by Phinneous
How can this thing be divine?!?
The Pentateuch, if divine, is full of mistakes from the very first word (we're talking Hebrew here...the basis of the Greek/Latin/English translations everyone in the world uses.) How could that be?
Example: In the beginning G-d created, in the Hebrew version, is actually literally "In the beginning OF... G-d created" There are thousands of examples of the Pentateuch making no sense in its grammar or syntax. So how do we know how to interpret it even on a literal level?
Well... behold, the Oral Torah...
The link is to an hour-long class (in English y'all) on the rational proofs of an Oral Torah (the Mishnah) given to Moses concurrently with the Pentateuch. Rabbi Kelemen is a great speaker so pastors, etc will have loads of sermon material from this...
Greek vs. Hebrew is much more complex than that. Any conclusions reached on a level higher than that of an individual book are pretty worthless.
It’s irrelevant, however, to the intent of my post. The Hebrew (G-d’s language, the Holy Tongue) original is full of “mistakes.” How could this be so? Because there is more to the story.
It may be true that the Greek Septuagint is best for rendering the Christian theology from the NT... I’m sure no one thinks this is so for the Five Books of Moses
I find the Hebrew better for many purposes from the standpoint of Christian theology—and about half of my job involves teaching Biblical courses.
What mistakes?
It’s humans that make mistakes, not the Maker.
The Septuagint is a translation.
My above comments about the Hebrew shouldn’t be taken to say that the Greek isn’t useful as well, but if I were limited to one or the other, there is no question about which one I would opt for. I should also say that I work from Shem Tov’s Hebrew Matthew, and the Greek isn’t much use in that instance.
I have long been impressed that only a few years after Christian persecutions, the Roman Emperor, Constantine, could call a council to begin to address defining the Cannons of the Church even as you point out that the discussion of the issues continued over a millennium.
Please allow me to disagree somewhat regarding the Council of Trent, as I am a Protestant and the outcome of that body was the permanent rejection of any Protestant faiths as against the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. I suppose to you, I am in the first category of crazies.
Actually I come from a long line of Baptists on my mother’s side and Lutherans on my father’s, so I’d tend to identify you more as kin than crazy. And while I myself am Catholic, better a Protestant who sincerely seeks to do all he can with what he has than a Catholic who is full (or even half-full) of apathy.
The crazies were out well before Constantine—try reading Irenaeus, a second century missionary to France, who had been instructed by Polycarp who had been instructed by St. John. He was dealing with some real nut-jobs. I remember reading a good analysis (I think by Msgr Hughes) of second century heresies that noted that even at this time, all basic forms of heresy could be found. I’d try to recall more, but it is past midnight here.
And two additional follow-ups on my previous reply to this post—there are many good reasons for going back to the Hebrew, and if you know Greek and look at my screen name, you will see that this one is personal :)
I have to ask, with you knowledge and background, have you seen the film “The Name of the Rose” (1986) and if so, how do you feel about it?
Now why would you claim that? The earliest books were written after the Tower of Babel; there's nothing to imply that Hebrew was spoken before that event.
Here’s a great little primer on how to write the Hebrew alphabet.
http://www.lucygenick.org.uk/downloadablePDFs/BOTA-Hebrew_Letter_Workbook.pdf
Any recommendations on what type of pen to use in learning to write in Hebrew?
Jews believe that G-d spoke “Let there be light...” in Hebrew, that Adam spoke Hebrew, that the generations until Babel all spoke Hebrew, That Noahs grandson Shem spoke and taught Hebrew to Abraham, that the generations of Jews until and after Egyptian bondage spoke Hebrew, heard G-d say “I am the Lord your G-d on Mt Sinai in Hebrew, and received the first and second Ten Commandments and complete written and Oral Torah in Hebrew. We’re pretty Hebrew - centric.
Are you speaking from a Christian perspective?
I think not.
Actually, in common usage English grammar was being corrupted (as it finally has come to be), but the rendering of verbs and pronouns was restored by correctly and precisely translating, according to their use in the original language:
Conjugating verbs, using "to be" as model:
Singular:
1st person = I am
2nd person = thou art
3rd person = he, she, or it is
Plural:
1st person = we are
2nd person = you are
3rd person = they are
Declining of personal pronouns (nominative, accusative/dative, genitive):
I, me, mine
thou, thee, thine
he/she/it, him/her/it, his/hers/its
we, us, our
you, you, your
They, them, their
******
Thus the intent of such a verse as 1 Corinthians 6:19 is preserved, despite its critically wrong application by abysmally poor exegetes:
"What? know ye (plural) that your (plural) body is the (a) temple of the Holy Ghost, which is in you (plural), which ye (plural) have of God, and ye (plural) are not your (plural) own (plural)?" (Authorized Version, my notes in parentheses, and words added by translators struck out).
Paul and Sosthenes addressed this letter, and this verse, to the whole assembly, the church of individuals at Corinth, a figurative-literal "body," an incorporated unit composed of many individuals, a "body" which the Holy Spirit dwells, and they as a body are thus God's/Christ's possession. They are not to allow the assembly, the body of individuals, a Body of Christ, to be corporately defiled by the sinful behavior of one individual's sinful practices.
By comparison, preachers often misinterpret the intent of the verse, by applying its sense only to the literal physical body of one human individual, implying that one's sinfulness only defiles ones own body and no other. Thus the horrendous error done by a member, by one'as action, to affect and infect the whole church assenbly to which he/she is a member, is totally ignored and negated by wrongly distinguishing the singular pronoun from the grammatically correct use of the plural.
This is not a small matter. The confession/forgiveness of one individual affects the spiritual health of an entire local church, not just the individual his/her self. This is what needs to be preached!
Multiply this kind of error on "thee,thou, thine" misapplications throughout the modern versions of the Bible, and see what you get!
Simply false. The NT is more similar to the LXX than the MT 85% of the time. If you want to understand modern Judaism, read the MT. If you want to understand the religion of the apostles, read the LXX.
That’s an empty statement, since the NT was originally written in Greek. The question still stands as to the accuracy of the Hebdomekonta’s OT translation from Hebrew/Aramaic to Greek, and even when it was compiled.
If you want to understand the religion of the apostles, read the Masoretic Texts, whose legitimacy Paul affirmed.
You completely missed the point. There is no such language as “Olde English”. There is Old English, but no one has spoken that as their native language in almost 800 years. We speak modern English today. What was spoken by Shakespeare was early modern English.
Yes — but also that of a programmer.
Jews believe that G-d spoke “Let there be light...” in Hebrew, that Adam spoke Hebrew, that the generations until Babel all spoke Hebrew, That Noahs grandson Shem spoke and taught Hebrew to Abraham, that the generations of Jews until and after Egyptian bondage spoke Hebrew, heard G-d say “I am the Lord your G-d on Mt Sinai in Hebrew, and received the first and second Ten Commandments and complete written and Oral Torah in Hebrew. We’re pretty Hebrew - centric.
Granted; it's "human nature" to think that others are like us. (Sociologists and psychologists use the term ethnocentrism.) The movie My Big Fat Greek Wedding had a character, the dad, who was of the opinion that all the languages of the world were descended from Greek; he was challenged on that with the Japanese word 'kimono', to which he replies: Kimono, kimono, kimono. Ha! Of course! Kimono is come from the Greek word himona, is mean winter. So, what do you wear in the wintertime to stay warm? A robe. You see: robe, kimono. There you go!
Your traditional-Hebrew view may be right, but there's a good chance it's wrong.
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