Posted on 10/26/2013 6:56:10 AM PDT by NYer
“When a Catholic prays TO Mary it is almost the same as when a lawyer in England prays to a judge. It is a request. We are asking her to do something.”
ALMOST. Except lawyers in England are not the standard for Christian practice and truth.
You can ask Mary anything. There is not support that she can hear you.
Thanks for the heavy lifting here.
If you did not state the source of the questions posed, I would have guessed an atheist posed them.
The logic behind the basic premise would at least deny the validity of the church, in favor of Judaism.
The RCs state that their church was, and thus they are the supreme authority on what it means. By the same logic, the Jews of Christ's time were to submit to those who sat in the seat of Moses, as Israel with its magisterium "were committed the oracles of God," "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises." (Romans 9:4)
Why then did they follow a man in the desert who lived off of insects, and an Itinerant preacher, both of whom were rejected by those who sat in the seat of Moses?
Scriptures and the virtue and power of God it speaks of. Which the church also was established by. (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.)
Sophistry and “gottcha” attempts posed as questions....No thanks.
And where do you see in Scripture believers being split into two classes, one called saints, and the other being just believers, brethren?
And where do you see saints having the ability to hear and personally respond to almost infinite amounts of prayer addressed to them in Heaven?
And where do you see anyone praying to anyone else in Heaven by the Lord, in the multitudinous prayers the Holy Spirit inspired and records for us? Except for pagans? (Jer. 44)
Where do you see OT believers praying to angels in Heaven?
And where do you see any believer bowing down and making supplication to another believer?
And where do you see any instructions on prayer to Heaven that teaches addressing someone else but God ("our mother who art in Heaven")?
Why RCs attempt to support this from Scripture when Prayer to Departed Saints (PTDS ) was a post apostolic practice, influenced by the "cult of the angels"
Do not attempt to extrapolate support from human relations on earth, as that is not the same as multitudes mentally praying to the same person, and ignores the divide btwn realms, that requires created beings to be in either one in order to converse (even if via a vision).
Do the saints also take up collections for the believers on earth, etc.?
You'll have to provide those to exhibit what you're talking about.
There are hundreds of subtle messages in various chapters of the Bible and it's impossible to know exactly what subtleties you're referring to.
No, believing Jews wrote the New Testament.
St, Paul's faith, for example, was a faith which was a continuation of the Old Testament which along with the New Testament was written by the Holy Spirit. Paul understood that the Old Testament promises to the Jews had been fulfilled in Christ. Both Old and New Testament saints were combined into one party of believers.
Old Testament believers were not Catholics either yet they were able to both interpret and explain Scripture to their hearers.
I wonder how many generations it took for this proto-church to decide it was “the one true church” and start the process of evolving into what we call the Catholic Church today?
It would be a very interesting history project, especially since a lot of history has been so rewritten.
It started proclaiming this bigtime when Reformation leaders successfully challenged its authority.
At that point they were desperate to try to reclaim what they had lost so began to condemn all other believers as heretics.
That practice continues.
thank you
that is actually very interesting. Someone should write a book.
:p
It is very important to understand 'tradition' from an Hebrew aspect, because the verse you allude to is precisely the thing that cuts the papists off at the knees.
The New Testament books are essentially the tradition of a Rabbi named Yeshua. It is the work of His disciples to preserve their beloved Rabbi. That requires a further Hebrew definition: what exactly is a disciple?
A male child of 6 years would have fully accomplished the Hebrew alphabet and prayers, mostly by his mother... The father then begins to teach the boy - and by the age of 14 he has memorized the entire Torah. If he has not done this with accomplishment, he would generally begin apprenticeship in his father's business. But if he excelled, he was encouraged to continue to memorize the entire Tanakh - whereupon he would approach a Rabbi to prove himself worthy (study to shew thyself approved)... The Rabbi would question him with great precision, and being satisfied with the answers (a rare thing), the boy was allowed to sit at the feet of the Rabbi. If not, then back to apprenticeship in his father's business.
It was an extraordinary honor to be a disciple of a Rabbi, and the greater the Rabbi, the more prestige. That Yeshua found his disciples working for a living means they had already failed to live up to the standard. But like with any Rabbi, being asked was a great honor, and like anyone asked, they would literally drop everything to follow the Master... Even for an itinerant one.
But what does a disciple DO? He emulates his Master. Every word is recorded and preserved... memorized. Everything the Master does, every action, is emulated and preserved. A disciple would rather cut out his tongue than speak a word against the words of his Master. These things - the actions and the sayings of the Master - are preserved inerrant, and are to be followed perfectly, or one is not a disciple of the Master. THAT is the tradition that the disciples of Yeshua are talking about.
So we come to this:
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
The scribes and Pharisees claim the right to Moses' seat - They claim to be the disciples of Moses - But one is not to pay attention to their works (their actions and sayings, supposedly in the service of Moses), because they 'say and do' *not* like Moses. So the only way this can be read is that the authority remains in Moses, to listen to HIM, and one must only listen to His disciples if they are under that authority - saying and doing LIKE MOSES.
Likewise, those who claim to be disciples of Yeshua have the authority of Yeshua ONLY if they say and do like Yeshua... They must believe (hear and do) in their Master, or they are false disciples, and are to be ignored.
This is an incredibly bold concept, turning rabbinic precedence and tradition on it's head... It prevents the accumulation of traditions, and leaves the authority where it belongs - in the Master, not his servants. This is why Paul corrected those who said they were disciples of Peter, James, John, etc... He was following the example of His Master - they cannot be disciples of the servant anymore. they must be disciples of the Master.
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.(1 Corinthians 3)
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
[...]
1Co 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; 1Co 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; 1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
(e-Sword:KJV)
Each of the four Gospels are not that large in volume yet contain the most precious message known to mankind. The Good News. Matt ch 11 25Then Jesus prayed this prayer: “O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding the truth from those who think themselves so wise and clever, and for revealing it to the childlike. 26Yes, Father, it pleased you to do it this way! 27“My Father has given me authority over everything. No one really knows the Son except the Father, and no one really knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” 28Then Jesus said, “Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you. Let me teach you, because I am humble and gentle, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke fits perfectly, and the burden I give you is light.”
Thankfully for us all the final say is His and not mans dogmas.
And unfortunately the majority of Christians are truly unlearned in what to expect by ‘hearing’ the WORDS these elected holy prophets were instructed to write down.
Peter confirms this, and every time Christ or the authors of the New Testament books, quoted one of the elected holy prophets, that quotation became one and the same as the ‘gospel’. This church does not believe those ‘holy prophets’. Unless the Old Testament scripture can be attributed to Mary in some twisted regard, the Old Testament is considered allegory.
But Paul says the ‘Old Testament’ is our script, as to what will be again as our warning to know where we are in the appointments of time. ICorinthians 10:11
Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 Christ gave specific events that would need be before He would return. Christ's first warning was deception.
Peter wrote that those claiming to be in charge of the House of God would be first in line come judgment day. IPeter 4:17/ For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Strangely Peter did not say anything about Mary having a role/part in this day of judgment.
But then again Christ did say ‘these things need be’, and that cup of wrath will not be passed over.
Around the year A.D. 107, a bishop, St. Ignatius of Antioch in the Near East, was arrested, brought to Rome by armed guards and eventually martyred there in the arena. In a farewell letter which this early bishop and martyr wrote to his fellow Christians in Smyrna (today Izmir in modern Turkey), he made the first written mention in history of "the Catholic Church." He wrote, "Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" (To the Smyrnaeans 8:2). Thus, the second century of Christianity had scarcely begun when the name of the Catholic Church was already in use.
Thereafter, mention of the name became more and more frequent in the written record. It appears in the oldest written account we possess outside the New Testament of the martyrdom of a Christian for his faith, the "Martyrdom of St. Polycarp," bishop of the same Church of Smyrna to which St. Ignatius of Antioch had written. St. Polycarp was martyred around 155, and the account of his sufferings dates back to that time. The narrator informs us that in his final prayers before giving up his life for Christ, St. Polycarp "remembered all who had met with him at any time, both small and great, both those with and those without renown, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world."
We know that St. Polycarp, at the time of his death in 155, had been a Christian for 86 years. He could not, therefore, have been born much later than 69 or 70. Yet it appears to have been a normal part of the vocabulary of a man of this era to be able to speak of "the whole Catholic Church throughout the world."
He is OBSESSED with trying to make folks believe that the Catholic elements magically (oops - spiritually) turn into the ACTUAL flesh of Jesus and the ACTUAL blood of Jesus as they pass into your body.
Pray to a rock if you wish.
Millions thruout the world do!
Genesis 3:3
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