Posted on 10/26/2013 6:56:10 AM PDT by NYer
MAJOR PREMISE: We are to worship only God. MINOR PREMISE: The the wise men fell down and worshiped the Baby Jesus without being rebuked by the babe, Joseph, Mary, the shepherds, the angels, or God himself, who certainly would have set them straight. (And if like some of my brethren, you ascribe that Mary was sinless...she could not have been if she failed to rebuke the worship of anyone other than God. CONCLUSION: Christ was God, and permitted to be worshiped. This, at minimum, requires the DUALITY of Christ and God. (There are examples of the Spirit being worshiped as well. Others can pull them up..I have wasted too much of my time on you.)
If the Bible is inherently true, to deny the Trinity (or at least the Duality) you must believe that part of the Gospels are incorrect, and the Bible goes out the window. Mathematically, there MUST be a Trinity, that is, not Three Gods (1+1+1) but rather three aspects of of God (1x1x1=3). You are a disruptor in search of proving your own wisdom in an effort to divide the Strong Man's house.
The J.W's twist and turn scripture to deny the Trinity as well, changing the Latin for Worship" to "make obescence to"...but do NOT change the exact same word elsewhere in the Bible where it applies to God the Father...so if you are going to go there, Neyh, I rebuke you in advance.)
Please go away now, ba'al.
I meant 1x1x1=1, before the Math Police scream “AH HA!!!!”
My bible says to pray FOR other people but NOT to other people...If you've got a bible that says that, I'd like to see it...
Protestants in America have stolen the word pray which has two meanings and does throughout the English world.
Protestants didn't steal anything...There ARE two uses of pray in the scriptures...The one is to make a request...The other word for pray is worship...
So while you 'pray thee' in a prayer to Mary, you are requesting something of Mary whom you are worshiping...
Well then how do you interpret these writings:
No need to interpret anything...Just believe what it says...
1 Timothy 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,
A request that live people on earth pray for other live people on Earth...
James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.
Live people on Earth are to confess their 'faults' to other live people on Earth, and pray FOR each other...
Ephesians 6:18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,
Obviously the verse isn't speaking of saints in heaven...They certainly don't need our prayers...We are instructed to pray to God...There's nothing in the verse that indicates we pray to anyone else...
1 Thessalonians 5:25 Brothers, pray for us.
Again, live humans on Earth praying for other live humans on earth...
Paul wrote these passages after Jesus’ resurrection. Are you saying that Paul didn’t have a good understanding of the proper way to pray? Paul does NOT ask us to only pray for one another. He also, based on Thessalonians, believes that it is OK to ask others to pray for us. This is a prayer in itself.
Paul says to ask other live Christians on Earth to pray to God for us...
Do you know the words to the Hail Mary? It is a prayer asking Mary to pray for us. It is not a prayer of adoration, which is due to God alone.
A prayer is a prayer is a prayer...If it's a prayer, it IS adoration as far as the bible is concerned...
Just because your religion invents its own definition doesn't at all change the scriptures... James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. Ephesians 6:18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, 1 Thessalonians 5:25 Brothers, pray for us. Paul wrote these passages after Jesus’ resurrection. Are you saying that Paul didn’t have a good understanding of the proper way to pray? Paul does NOT ask us to only pray for one another. He also, based on Thessalonians, believes that it is OK to ask others to pray for us. This is a prayer in itself. Do you know the words to the Hail Mary? It is a prayer asking Mary to pray for us. It is not a prayer of adoration, which is due to God alone. And in the OT: Job 42:10 And the Lord restored the fortunes of Job, when he had prayed for his friends. And the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.
Well I made a mess of that at the end...
Pray one FOR another ... not TO another. If you want to pray FOR Mary, fine no problem. Praying TO Mary is what is contradictory to Jesus’s teachings. Praying TO anyone other than God is worship.
I can only surmise that you weren't able to back up what you said.
I've been to many catholic masses.
They recite scripture during the service.
However, exposition is not there. I chose a church that encourages personal reading and EXPLAINS the scripture for the hearers. Much better.
I don’t go back in the archives, to dig up that which is negative. If I see any belittling of Mary in the future, I’ll ping you if I remember to do so. Okay?
Check a dictionary. Pray means ask in every other English speaking country in the world. Lawyers are praying to judges all the time in England. Protestant Americans do not own the English language so deal with the fact that I pray TO Mary for her intercession. Catholics pray TO Mary.
What do you mean by 'exposition'?
Explanation. Teach the people what the scriptures mean, not just what they say.
“Protestant Americans do not own the English language so deal with ...”
And if God inspired the Holy Scriptures in English instead of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, well, you might have an argument there. In this case, your point is interesting, but based on a false premise.
Thank you for the clarification. In your original comment you wrote:
I've been to many catholic masses. They recite scripture during the service. However, exposition is not there.
At mass in every Catholic Church, the Gospel is read after which the priest preaches a homily (or exposition, if you prefer) on the reading. I can't recall ever attending a Sunday mass when a homily was not preached. Granted, Catholic priests rarely deliver their homilies against backdrops or bands or flashing images - but they clearly explain the meaning of the gospel. Do you know the origin of this practice?
This morning's gospel was Matthew 25:31-46 - The Judgment of the Nations. As we end the liturgical calendar (in the Catholic Church, we follow a calendar of readings), our minds and hearts turn toward Christ as King and the end times. I have heard this gospel read many times but our pastor's homily (i.e. exposition) on the reading, touched on something I had not heard before. It was startling and something I had not considered. His words have burrowed deep into my heart and I will be reflecting on them throughout the week.
Now you claim that when you attended mass at a Catholic Church, there was no homily (i.e. exposition). You have now moved on to another church where not only do you hear these readings EXPLAINED but where you are encouraged to also read them (which is also true in the Catholic Church). Still pondering this morning's homily, lets see how your pastor has interpreted that particular reading. I would be most interested and hopeful to learn something new. Many thanks!
I’m actually very honest, what’s up. That would be what most people would first say about me, so you’ve pictured me wrong. The slams on Mary are, “you idolize Mary,” “you worship Mary,” “Mary is dead,” “Mary is not the mother of God,” and so forth. I don’t have a particular link, because I’m not going to waste time looking for it; prayer is more important, caring for my pets is more important, taking care of my garden is more important. Even watching tennis, especially when Li Na is beating Serena Williams (currently going on) is also more important. So back to the TV set I go... :)
“Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;
this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”
Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”
These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum
Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”
Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you?
What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”
As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him
Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”
Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”
Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?”
He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve.” [John 6: 49-71]
In this particular dialogue Jesus emphasizes the necessity of helping the under-privileged (the previous passage emphasized readiness and the one before that emphasized the impossibility of predicting God's timing) to reflect a life devoted to God. The Jews, who were relying on their heritage, were neglectful of charity. A few chapters previously (ch.23) Jesus had castigated the Jewish leaders sharply for their utter hypocrisy...now He's describing the end of ANY individual who has denied God and His works.
I’m not sure of the point of your post to me.
OK - where in Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek does the Bible say that one Christian can’t ask another Christian for something (i.e. pray in British English)? If you can’t find that verse then I can pray TO Mary.
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