Posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by annalex
Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:
Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)
What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:
Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)
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| The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source |
Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.
Can’t say that I have...nor witnessed any others doing so either.
It DOES??
Whisper?
he must have YELLED at THESE guys!!
Pope Stephen VI (896–897), who had his predecessor Pope Formosus exhumed, tried, de-fingered, briefly reburied, and thrown in the Tiber.[1]
Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.
Pope Benedict IX (1032–1044, 1045, 1047–1048), who "sold" the Papacy
Pope Boniface VIII (1294–1303), who is lampooned in Dante's Divine Comedy
Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him were tortured.[2]
Pope Alexander VI (1492–1503), a Borgia, who was guilty of nepotism and whose unattended corpse swelled until it could barely fit in a coffin.[3]
Pope Leo X (1513–1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors' reserves on a single ceremony[4]
Pope Clement VII (1523–1534), also a Medici, whose power-politicking with France, Spain, and Germany got Rome sacked.
Make up your mind!
Silly wabbit!
It was the EVILs of the RCC leadership that caused Righteous men to finally get fed up with "the reality around them" and created the Reformation!
Geez, Elsie, dontcha know that nobody is perfect?
-Catholic Dude.
Thanks for posting those pictures. They bring back a lot of fond memories. I traveled extensively in Turkey and saw the seven churches of Asia Minor. I loved Ephesus. Interesting, Philadelphia which was the only church God spoke favorably about in Revelation was the only active church still going at that time (although not using the same building). :O)
And, btw, if people could see the idolatry of some of the “Christian” churches in these countries, they would realize that indeed people do worship Mary and is promoted by the Church.
"Indeed" only confirms my reply exposing the spurious nature of your excuse for the total absence of any prayers to anyone in Heaven due, as even some lack of available sanctification would not excuse not seeking help by praying angels in heaven.
However, in Tobias we see Archangel Raphael interceding for Tobias...
It seems you are out to convince Catholics. Tobit is quite a tale, with a a women, Sarah, who has lost seven husbands because Asmodeus, the demon of lust, and 'the worst of demons', abducts and kills every man she marries on their wedding night before the marriage can be consummated!
And a man, Tobias, who was sleeping with his eyes open while birds dropped dung into in his eyes (sound sleeper!) and blinded him. And who later is attacked by a fish leaping out of the river to devour him. But Raphael has him capture it and later he burns the fish's liver and heart to drive away the demon Asmodeus away to Upper Egypt, enabling him and Sarah to consummate his marriage.
It goes on, and the book is charged with having some historical errors, but in any case this cannot do for Scriptural support for us, not only because we do not hold it as Scripture, but because it still does not support praying to angels or men in Heaven.
And it says: I give you life abundant, and St. Paul says "to me death is gain ... a thing far better" (Philippians 1:21-23), and treasure awaits us in heaven when we die (Mark 10:21).. You are not familiar with these parts of the Holy Scripture?
Pure insolence, To the contrary, because i am familiar (and just finished debating a soul sleeper here on FR in which this was one of evidences i invoked against it) i exposed such attempts as the egregious extrapolations that they are. For that "abundant" refers to or includes being a heavenly object of almost infinite prayers to them is simply speculation, while such is contrary to who prayer addresses in the multitude of prayers to Heaven the Holy Spirit provides for us. And i could ask, "You are not familiar with these parts of the Holy Scripture?," but i do no wish to act so insolent.
Making basic doctrines out of what could be is not sound but is what cults like the Mormons engage in (likewise operating out of sola ecclesia).
I would not use the word "believer" as a synonym for "saint" because we are not saved by faith alone. However, to call someone a living saint is entirely possible, and in fact St. Paul often called living people saints.
"Believer" is indeed a synonym for "saint" not only because the Holy Spirit obviously uses it that way many times but because we are not saved by a faith that is alone, thus it is impossible to be a true believer who does not have the kind of faith that effects the "obedience of faith." (Rm. 16:26; Heb. 5:9; 6:9)
However, while i am aware that RC doctrine does not restrict saints to being in Heaven, i was referring to the postmortem class of believers, in which you restrict those who are now with the Lord to being of the saint class. But again, sorry for any misunderstanding as to your argument.
Note: first it was not a prayer but a "memorial"; then it became prayer but not by saints, and now it is, finally, a prayer
Not so, and this is the second time you miscomprehended what i said, which was "that the offering up of incense was an O.T. ordinance, and in Rev. 8:3,4 it appears to be a memorial unto God," not that the prayers themselves were only a memorial but that the offering was, rather than prayers needing a postal service. The former type of offering of something with incense as a memorial has Scriptural support, (Lv. 2:2,15,16; 24:7; Num. 5:15) that angels serve as a postal service with souls praying to them in Heaven has none.
-- you still cannot bring yourself to quote fully "of the saints", but for some Pavlovian reason that prayer is only possible after the the trumpet and not before the trumpet.
Your attempted mind reading points to RCs who must engage in such when faced with a lack of proof and their own arguments are exposed as specious. And here the reason is not "Pavlovian" but proper exegesis, as you are attempting to provide support for angels, and by extension, mortals, being heavenly secretaries so that they can be prayed to, but this text only speaks of this at a specific time, with no hint of this being a regular occurrence, which in any case does not offer an example of prayer being made to them.
And besides, the first time the "prayers of saints" are offered is immediately after the Eucharistic Jesus becomes apparent, in Rev. 5:8, as He becomes apparent at every Mass. This is getting quite comical.
Indeed it is comical, that of as your attempt at sarcasm in the face of the absence if Scriptural support for PTDS, and your own arguments which now resort to having Rev. 5:8 support Jesus making an appearance in the RCs Mass! But perhaps a diversion is needed.
I guess this, along with the use of Tobias, means you are attempting to convince RCs, At least it provides evidence that the Catholic church did not rewrite the Bible as Islamists argue, but it would not take much, among other things, to place at least one prayer to saints in Heaven, or have Jesus appear as a wafer of bread in Heaven.
till does not support praying to them.
s How do you think they become cognizant?
Not by being prayed to, while despite RC efforts, saints being cognizant of believers needs is not proved nor would it support prayers to them in Heaven anyway. Give it up.
Your first three questions do not arise if you understand what a prayer to a saint is. Of course these are instances when a saint joins me in praying with me to God. Where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (Matthew 18:20).
We are dealing with prayers to Heaven, God's throne, and despite the extrapolation from earthly relationships which you must resort to for support, once again, the Holy Spirit did not provide one example of praying to anyone in Heave but the Lord, and taught believers have direct access to the Lord in the holy of holies, not via a saintly secretary.
I already commented that veneration of saints was a spontaneous development outside of the scope of the scripture.
Indeed; then Rcs should cease their attempts to wrest support for this tradition from Scripture.
It is about as silly to ask for instances of fully developed veneration of saints in the scripture as to ask for instances of driving cars and flying airplanes in scripture.
That is an absurd comparison. Unlike driving cars, souls have been able to pray to other beings than God since they were created, but instead they only prayed to God again and again. Meanwhile, having direct access to God means it surpasses other means, while cars are needed for faster transportation.
Is there any need for an Heavenly intercessor btwn God and man save for Christ?
Indeed there is, "I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men" (1 Timothy 2:1), right before St. Paul speaks of Christ being One mediator. Read the Hoyl Scripture once in a while and you, too will become Catholic and will be able to explain it to others.
Again resorting to sarcasm points it back to you, as while I evidence i read Scripture, and have even provide almost every prayer in it (besides almost every book i have read) , what you dismiss is the lack of any "Heavenly intercessor" besides Christ, and so you read it read into Scripture!
Read the Holy Scripture more than once in a while and with an honest objective heart, which RCs cannot do, and you too may become a born again Christian and able to explain it to others without reading into it.
Is there any insufficiency in Christ, from accessibility to ability to relate to man and make intercession for him, that would warrant praying to others in Heaven?
While Christ is the sole source of salvation, the believer must apply his Redemption to his unique circumstance in life. See, for example, Col 1:24 where Paul speaks of such "insufficiency".
An answer wresting Scripture which avoids the fact that there is no insufficiency in Christ, from accessibility to ability to relate to man and make intercession for him, that would warrant praying to others in Heaven. Besides and because of the afflictions of Christ there are sufferings yet to be endured by saints for his body's sake, which is the church, for which Paul suffered for in this life and would be rewarded for in the next, but which does not attribute any lack in Christ, from accessibility to ability to relate to man and make intercession for him that would warrant praying to others in Heaven? It is sin that you think otherwise, and thus must read into Scripture that which is not there in order to support a tradition of men.
Was any interaction btwn believers from Heaven and those on earth that of mental prayer to them, or a personal visitation?
Both: people pray to saints silently, and also in full voice, and also are visited by saints in rarer moments. Our Lady visited a whole town in Portugal once. Why is that an important distinction?
Because any interaction btwn saints above and those below required them to be in the same realm, while the Lord is the only one shown being addressed in prayer to Heaven, not being restricted by the division btwn realms. Some believers were in a vision taken to the heavenly realm, but this is not the same as prayer to heaven, and none prayed to mortals in Heaven. As for visions of Mary, that is a related debate, and what this Mary says as compared with Scripture.
Does Scripture actually show that the departed are given the Divine attribute close to omniscience
What the exact mechanism of a saint hearing and answering prayer is, we don't know, but we know that somehow it is possible due to the scripture already discussed: the similarity to angels, clarity of vision, etc. With God, dear Dan, everything is possible.
God is able to give believers a place to dwell on Mars for a time, or require the use of Dial soap. But you do not make doctrines out of what God can do and on a subject in which He has spoken abundantly on what He does do. Unless you subject Scripture to some men and an individual claiming assured infallibility. For with Rome everything is possible.
Anyway, this is becoming redundant, and once again has exposed the absence of actual Scriptural support for PTDS, and unless more is needed,i think it is best to move on, as i think the strategy of some FR RCs is to try to use up our time in a case as this.
That they do interact, we discussed in full on this thread. The mechanism of interaction is, of course mysterious like all miracles wrought by Christ. It is not a contradiction to know one thing but not the other.
Luther’s initial objections were plausible enough to discuss, but from the vantage point of history we see that the Protestant heresy was the work of Satan to scatter the faithful, and for about 500 years the Protestantism was fracturing itself. At this point there is barely a trace of authentic Christianity in all these sects.
Yeah, I too, lost interest, and have better things to do with my time. If you have anything of substance, we can resume. I don't think you comprehend the scriptural support for veneration of saints as a necessary component of Christian worship past the Early Church, and I am not going to repeat myself. Thank you for the opportunity to answer your questions, they were very typical.
Good Post
“While Christ is the sole source of salvation, the believer must apply his Redemption to his unique circumstance in life. See, for example, Col 1:24 where Paul speaks of such “insufficiency”.
I checked Col 1:24 and found no reference at all to what you’re talking about here. Are you trying to say that the Christian is sufficient in some way, and only uses Christ for those parts that need completion? Though how any of that applies to praying to saints instead of to God, by whom we would still gain this sufficiency, I find confusing.
I thought perhaps you meant this verse instead:
“Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;” (2Co 3:5).
Of course, if you meant THIS verse, which actually speaks of sufficiency, it would undo your assertion and also call into question the entire premise of praying to Saints, since it quite clearly says that we are “not... sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves.” IOW, that no good thing can be attributed to our own willing and working, but rather must be credited to God who “works in us both to will and to do.” And then the Apostle adds, “our sufficiency is of God,” and not, say, the Virgin Mary or some random saint. This is quite the superb evidence for going to God for our sufficiency, and not to anyone else.
AMEN!!
'WE' discussed nothing of the sort!
'I' read a LOT of hopeful words bandied about the subject; but circumstantial occurrences are NO 'proof' of anything that you wish it to be.
And Satan used the RCC to DO it??
Do you HEAR what you are postulating?
It appears that you've spelled Catholic ritual improperly.
That applies to you, as it is i who have abundant Scriptural substance for my position that the only sanctioned prayers to anyone in Heaven were to the Lord, to whom alone we are taught to address our prayers to Heaven to, having direct access in to God in Christ, with Him being the only one in Heaven who is said to make intercession for believers. Thanks be to God.
I don't think you comprehend the scriptural support for veneration of saints as a necessary component of Christian worship past the Early Church, and I am not going to repeat myself.
I do comprehend actual scriptural support is not necessary for all of Rome's doctrines, and that PTDS fails of that.
Thank you for the opportunity to answer your questions, they were very typical.
Ditto
This can be said about most every scripture that is cited!
Too bad the lazy might THINK a Catholic has made his point merely because some Book, Chapter and Verse is seen as a reference.
I know that I am wasting my time when I have to chase the faint hint of bunny odor down yet another rabbit hole, and come up short.
I can only imagine what an undecided Lurker might feel like.
‘Tis a mere flesh wound.
We have won the battle and are now leaving the field; abandoning you to lick your various wounds; inflicted by the rapier like thrusts of supremely powerful Catholic apologetics.
—Catholic_Dude(GOD save the Queen!)
The arrogance Rome much exhibited in response to those who dared to bring her to accountability for priestly pedophilia - as indeed she claims to be a law unto herself - is reflected in much of RC apologetics, which acts as if Rome is beyond reproof and can only see support for her in Scripture.
Sounds like sola ecclesia Mormonism.
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