Posted on 05/31/2013 2:44:05 PM PDT by NYer
Any theology that absolves the individual of any culpability in the conduct of their lives, in their thoughts and in their words, in what the do and what they fail to do to the least of their brothers and sisters is is self serving mumbo jumbo.
Faith is the willful cooperation with Grace and Faith without Works is dead. The exclusion of works you refer to is the exclusion of the Jewish laws and rituals as not being salvific. Grace is not a one size fits all heavenly commodity. One must cooperate with Grace that they "may" be saved.
Peace be with you
Peace be with you
Catholics like to boast. PRIDE!
And that self serving mumbo jumbo has NOTHING to do with salvation!
When we both say Salvation I am not even sure we are speaking of the same thing. If we are not, discussion or any arguing over this is pointless.
For Catholics Salvation begins with the grace of God which touches a sinner's heart and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited because it proceeds solely from the love and mercy of God. Man may receive or reject this inspiration of God, he may turn to God or remain in sin. Grace does not constrain man's free will.
Through Grace is sinner is disposed for salvation from sin; he believes in the revelation and promises of God, he fears God's justice, hopes in his mercy, trusts that God will be merciful to him for Christ's sake, begins to love God as the source of all justice, hates and detests his sins.
This disposition is followed by justification itself, which consists not in the mere remission of sins, but in the sanctification and renewal of the inner man by the voluntary reception of God's grace and gifts, whence a man becomes just instead of unjust, a friend instead of a foe and so an heir according to hope of eternal life. This change happens either by reason of a perfect act of charity elicited by a well disposed sinner or by virtue of the Sacrament either of Baptism or of Penance according to the condition of the respective subject laden with sin. The Council further indicates the causes of this change. By the merit of the Most Holy Passion through the Holy Spirit, the charity of God is shed abroad in the hearts of those who are justified.
It was right when written at Trent and it is right today.
"Let the believer who is lowly boast in being raised up" James 1:9
Peace and blessings be with you
That scripture is addressing BELIEVERS - ME!. It’s God’s Word so you are NOW a BELIEVE in God’s Word and that makes His Word the final authority in your life?? or still a believer in man and it’s teachings? You can’t serve two masters!
I suppose Catholics must console themselves with that kind of reasoning to justify the fact that their entire lives are one huge wasted effort to gain salvation.
Even a rudimentary understanding of Scripture by Catholics would reveal the fallacy of that line of thought. It is not supported by Scripture in the least and any true believer would not think that way. It is merely tilting at windmills by Catholics.
The power of projection, however, reveals a lot about someone who would think that others think that way themselves. The fact that you refer to Scripture as *mumbo jumbo* is quite telling.
Romans 6:1-23 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Galatians 2:20-21 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
Colossians 3:3-4 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
I believe as my Church always has:
I believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Don't you?
Catholics have NO idea what being in Christ is all about. Being crucified in Him, not having our transgressions counted against us, but rather being clothed in the righteousness of Christ.
That's not a Biblical definition of faith.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
IOW, believing God and taking Him at His word.
It's really pretty simple.
Not overly complicated like Catholicism likes to make salvation.
I was referring to the Protestant interpretation of that Scripture. Just because you believe it does not make it true or obligatory for anyone else to believe. All we have to go on for it being correct is the reliance on your admittedly fallible powers of interpretation. Sorry, that is nowhere good enough.
So all of the snide comments about what you think all Catholics believe, do, or are do nothing to foster your credibility or influence Catholic belief.
Surely you are not implying that Hebrews 11:1 is all that Scripture has to say about faith or is even an adequate synthesis of all that is said about Faith. God calls all to return to him and Faith is man's answer to that call. Faith is an act of the will that results in the supernatural powers to see and believe what the human eyes and mind themselves do not permit. The lack of Faith, my dear sister, is why Protestants do not see the Real Presence in the Eucharist, they are relying on what their eyes and minds convince them is present.
Peace be with you
It’s interesting how some Catholics change the total meaning of part of the Nicene Creed by not printing in the way it was meant for centuries.
Just by changing “We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church” to “One Holy Catholic etc” they attempt to hijack the church that Jesus started into the one holy catholic church being their denomination.
Bizarre pride and denial of what Jesus intended, which is for His church (no need to capitalize) to be make up of all born again (saved) Christians who believe on Jesus and know that they live in Him and He in them.
So simple and perfect that “some” aren’t content with it.
Glory to God and his church!
Here is a real example of an insult directed at Catholics that an actual Catholic finds offensive. Per your lecture last night this should satisfy the criteria of flame bait.
Why don't you explain what the capital "C" in Church designates.
Catholics have NO idea what being in Christ is all about. Being crucified in Him, not having our transgressions counted against us, but rather being clothed in the righteousness of Christ.You should be grateful it was explained to you.
In the lecture, did you see the part about being thin skinned?
BTW one of the rules is that when quoting a poster they should be pinged.
What, you have no idea what that means???
But, but, but, cherry picking and misrepresenting someone is so much more fun.
Spoil sport!
You just don’t get what being part of the church of the perpetually offended is all about.
They do indeed, in the way unScriptural way they preach/promote their particular church, and as if Catholics today show forth more works and commitment than evangelicals, even in these latter days, which they do not , or as if sola ecclesia reformers historically have marginalized works, which they did not *.
As for the faith vs works debate, While it true that that the faith that saves is not an inert faith, but one that effects obedience towards its object (and repentance when convicted of not doing so), so that is is characterized by righteousness - as 1 John tell us in providing for assurance that one has eternal life - yet it is precisely faith that appropriates justification for the sinner in conversion, as He comes to the cross with no price in his hands. The works that follow justify/vindicate him as one possessing saving faith, having "things that accompany salvation." (Heb. 6:9)
Thus Paul both states that "God imputeth righteousness without works," yet "not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." (Romans 2:13) Not because they are saved because they are actually deserving of the gift of eternal life - for what actually deserved in God's justice is the second death - but because those that truly believe are doers of the law, for God has purposed that by grace, "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. " (Romans 8:4)
Now to do so better.
In contrast is the "gospel" that teaches that one is justified by an actual holiness of heart via a ritual, even if the subject himself does not personally have faith at that time, and after this life must (unless a "saint") spend an indeterminate time in purifying torments commencing at death in order to become good enough to actually enter glory. Rather , one either has saving/justifying faith (which baptism expresses) at death and goes to be with the Lord whom he believed and thus characteristically followed, or he/she does not, and proceeds to Hell. ----------
*Alister McGrath even posits (in educated theological language) that,
It is clear that this condemnation [in Canon XI] is aimed against a purely extrinsic conception of justification (in the Catholic sense of the term) — in other words, the view that the Christian life may begin and continue without any transformation or inner renewal of the sinner. In fact, the canon does not censure any magisterial Protestant account of iustificatio hominis, in that the initial (extrinsic) justification of humans is either understood (as with Melanchthon) to be inextricably linked with their subsequent (intrinsic) sanctification, so that the concepts are notionally distinct, but nothing more; or else both the extrinsic justification and intrinsic sanctification of humanity are understood (as with Calvin) to be contiguous dimensions of the union of the believer with Christ. (Alister E. McGrath, Iustitia Dei: A History of the Christian Doctrine of Justification, 3rd ed., p. 343.) >
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