The saint who opposed Luther

Catholic Herald ^ | August 7, 2012

[NYer]

St Cajetan (1480-1547) was, like his contemporary Martin Luther, deeply concerned by the worldliness and decadence he saw among the clergy. He, however, sought to reform the Church from within, founding the Order of the Theatines.

This was the first congregation of regular clergy. Its aims were to preach sound doctrine, to tend the poor and the sick, to restore frequent use of the sacraments and to inspire better priestly conduct.

Born into the nobility of Vicenza as Gaetano dei Conti di Tiene, Cajetan lost his father at two. His mother brought him up to be both studious and devout.

After becoming a doctor in civil and canon law at Padua in 1504, he was protonotary to Pope Julius II in Rome from 1506 to 1513. Ordained in 1516, he returned to Vicenza two years later.

In Rome he had been associated with a group of zealous clergy styling themselves the Oratory of Divine Love. Back in Vicenza, he entered the Oratory of St Jerome and founded a hospital for incurables.

“In the Oratory,” he said, “we try to serve God by worship; in our hospital we may say that we actually find Him.” He went on to create hospitals in Verona and Venice.

Distressed by what he saw of the clergy, Cajetan returned to Rome in 1523 to confer with his friends in the Oratory of Divine Love. These included Pietro Carafa, Bishop of Chieti, a fiercely intransigent prelate who would be elected Pope Paul IV in 1555. With Carafa, Cajetan established in 1524 a new order, naming them the Theatines, after the Latin name for Chieti (Theate Marricinorum). There was particular emphasis on poverty and on thorough biblical training.

Carafa became the first superior-general, though Cajetan filled that office from 1530 to 1533. Perhaps due to Carafa’s uncompromising nature, the order did not immediately flourish. Moreover, it had to flee to Venice when the Emperor Charles V sacked Rome in 1527.

After 1533 Carafa sent Cajetan first to Verona, and then to Naples, where the Theatines gradually became respected for their stand against the city’s corruption and indifference to the poor. Cajetan established pawnshops which were run purely for the benefit of their users.

Among the Theatines at Naples from 1547 was the Englishman Thomas Goldwell, who had fled from Henry VIII’s regime. In 1555, under Queen Mary, he was appointed Bishop of Asaph, before once again being obliged to leave England under Queen Elizabeth. From 1561 Goldwell was briefly superior-general at Naples. He would live to be the last survivor of Mary’s bishops.

For 250 years the Theatines flourished in western Europe, as well as conducting foreign missions. In the 19th century, however, they fell into decline. In 2005 they numbered only some 200 religious, mainly in Spain and South America.

[Natural Law]

“The Council of Trent (1545-1564) placed the Bible on its list of prohibited books, and forbade any person to read the Bible without a license from a Roman Catholic bishop or inquisitor. The Council added these words: “That if any one shall dare to read or keep in his possession that book, without such a license, he shall not receive absolution till he has given it up to his ordinary.”

If you are going to cut and paste from an anti-Catholic website you ought to at least have the integrity to admit and cite it.

Once you have done that you should then do a fact check because what you posted is a lie (note: I am not accusing you of lying, only of passing lies along).

Some 300 years earlier, in response to the Albigensian heresy the local councils of Toulouse (1229 AD) and Tarragona (1234 AD) banned possession of unauthorized heretical versions of the bible.

Peace be with you

[AnneM62]

Martin Jeroboam Luther - Leader of the 10 Lost Tribes of Protestantism.

God bless St. Cajetan and all those who fought for Christ’s Church!

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“The Council of Trent is not hard to find - I quoted it.”

Really? Let’s see. This is what you wrote:

The Council added these words: “That if any one shall dare to read or keep in his possession that book, without such a license, he shall not receive absolution till he has given it up to his ordinary.” “

Now, I checked a Protestant translation of Trent’s decrees. And that quote isn’t in there. What you do find is that Protestants have been quoting it for 150 years and provide no actual source quote for it whatsoever: https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=That+if+any+one+shall+dare+to+read+or+keep+in+his+possession+that+book%2C+without+such+a+license%2C+he+shall+not+receive+absolution+till+he+has+given+it+up+to+his+ordinary&btnG=

I think the quote is bogus. I checked all the key words and no such quote appears except in anti-Catholic books. Imagine that.

Like I said: Protestant anti-Catholics always lie. They have to.

[Religion Moderator]

What is the source for those quotes?

[AnneM62]

Hey, I suspect most mainstream Protestants reject the heretical Scofield Bible. How bout that new Jimmy Carter Bible? Do you recommend that to your friends? Or is it on your ban list?

This is what the Catholic Church was facing in banning certain editions of the bible in their blatant heresies. They needed to keep the truth in tact.

[Natural Law]

"This is what the Catholic Church was facing in banning certain editions of the bible in their blatant heresies."

Those Protestants complaining about the Church banning heretical Bibles should have no problem with members of their congregations reading and espousing doctrines from the Book of Mormon or the Watchtower.

Peace be with you

[Persevero]

“What is the source for those quotes?”

Wikipedia, and the Council of Trent.

I searched Bing “did the Roman Catholic church excommunicate Luther,” and that’s what I got.

However, I have read bios of Luther, read articles about Luther, read “Here I Stand,” even watched the Ralph Fiennes movie “Luther,” (not authoritative, I know!) and there seems to be no argument against the historical truth the Luther was both excommunicated by the RC church and threatened with death.

So to complain that he didn’t stay in the RC Church is pretty blatantly unfair to him. He hardly had the choice.

[Persevero]

“If you are going to cut and paste from an anti-Catholic website you ought to at least have the integrity to admit and cite it.”

I did not visit an anti-Catholic website.

People joke about Wiki, but it was sourced and cited and I had no reason to believe it was false.

I have even seen posters at my public library, “Banned Books,” and the Bible has been listed on them as banned by the RC church. I’m not making it up. Of course I was not present personally, who of us could have been, but my sources seem credible.

To the RC church’s credit, they haven’t banned it for a long time, so, good for them.

But we might note that reformers like Wycliffe were burned at the stake for translating it into the common language (English). This was a terrible policy and a terrible occurrence.

[Persevero]

“Are you believing those anti-Catholic tracts again?”

I didn’t read or cite any anti-Catholic tracts.

Here’s some more about those killed for translating/distributing Bibles. This time from the blurb for PBS’s Battle for the Bible from their Secrets of the Dead series.

“Today, speakers of English take for granted many phrases from the King James Bible — from “let there be light” to the word “scapegoat” — that were the work of an intrepid 16th-century translator who met not with acclaim but with years of exile, and eventually lost his life.

But this translator, William Tyndale — who was burned at the stake on October 6, 1536 — was no lone renegade. Rather, he was a pivotal transitional figure, his work a step toward bringing direct experience of the Bible to a reading public.

The film BATTLE FOR THE BIBLE explores the lives and lasting influence of three major figures in the translation and propagation of the English Bible: the 14th-century theologian, politician, and reformer John Wycliffe; Tyndale; and Thomas Cranmer, the Archbishop of Canterbury under Henry VIII and advisor to the king through the period that saw the split with Rome and the creation of the Anglican Church.

The translation of the Bible into the vulgar — the language of everyday people — was a key element in the series of reforms within the Catholic Church that eventually resulted in what we know as the Protestant Reformation.

In the 14th century, the Roman Catholic Church was Western Europe’s undisputed religious authority; and its central rituals — the Mass and Communion — the only legitimate pathway to salvation. The pope and the clergy held enormous power, and secular authorities looked to the Church for legitimation. Key to the Church’s power was the fact that its rituals were conducted in Latin, a language inaccessible to the uneducated faithful. The public was completely dependent on the priesthood for access to salvation — only through mysterious rituals conducted in an unfamiliar tongue could they conduct their spiritual lives.

John Wycliffe, born around 1320, was a prominent theologian at Oxford University and a leading ecclesiastical politician in the dark period of English history following the decimation of Europe’s population by the Black Plague. He became convinced through his own scholarship that Scripture itself, rather than the Mass, should be seen as the source of Christian authority.

Wycliffe’s notion that the Bible should be translated into the common tongue for the edification of all believers was a radical innovation, and one that spawned a movement. Working outside of the Church, translators eventually produced perhaps hundreds of so-called “Wycliffe Bibles,” translated and hand-copied from the Latin. It is not clear that Wycliffe himself produced any translations into English, so they are more properly known as “Wycliffite” Bibles.

With or without Wycliffe’s active involvement, the English Bible became part of an underground movement that became known as Lollardy and continued to spread after Wycliffe’s death in 1384. It worried Church authorities enough that by 1407 the English translation was denounced as unauthorized, and translating or using translated Bibles was defined as heresy — a crime for which the punishment was death by burning. In 1415 Wycliffe himself was denounced, posthumously, as a heretic. His body was exhumed and burned in 1428. Wycliffite Bibles, even after the ban, were produced in great numbers, and the 250 or so that now remain are the largest surviving body of medieval English texts. But the time was not yet right for the Bible to exist publicly in the common tongue. “

I do not condemn current R. Catholics for this, but I do condemn the re-writing of history. Just admit the R.Catholic church had a horrible problem, but has since repented on the issue (I am assuming it has), rather than pretending it did not happen.

[Iscool]

What is the source for those quotes?

The translations of writers, also ecclesiastical, which have till now been edited by condemned authors, are permitted provided they contain nothing contrary to sound doctrine. Translations of the books of the Old Testament may in the judgment of the bishop be permitted to learned and pious men only, provided such translations are used only as elucidations of the Vulgate Edition for the understanding of the Holy Scriptures and not as the sound text. Translations of the New Testament made by authors of the first class of this list shall be permitted to no one, since great danger and little usefulness usually results to readers from their perusal. But if with such translations as are permitted or with the Vulgate Edition some annotations are circulated, these may also, after the suspected passages have been expunged by the theological faculty of some Catholic university or by the general inquisition, be permitted to those to whom the translations are permitted. Under these circumstances the entire volume of the Sacred Books, which is commonly called the or parts of it, may be permitted to pious and learned men. From the Bibles of Isidore Clarius of Brescia, however, the preface and introduction are to be removed, and no one shall regard its text as the text of the Vulgate Edition.

Some Catholic college out of New York...

[spunkets]

"1545-1564) ... Source please! This is nonsense. Bibles were copied by hand in those days.

The Gutenberg Bible was being printed from 1454 on in Mainz, Germany.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“But we might note that reformers like Wycliffe were burned at the stake for translating it into the common language (English). This was a terrible policy and a terrible occurrence.”

And it never happened. Wycliffe was dead for more than 40 years (of a stroke) when his bones were burned. He was never charged with, tried for, or burned for translating the Bible since that wasn’t a crime.

It never ceases to amaze me how many Protestant anti-Catholics are poorly educated enough to actually believe Wycliffe was executed or executed for translating the Bible. Wycliffe was a heretic. And Protestant anti-Catholics are just ignorant.

[vladimir998]

That’s not the quote Iscool, but I give you credit for trying to save your buddy from the embarrassment of being caught out. The quote in question is apparently a bogus one. It is not in the text. None of the keywords appera in the text in that combination. Only anti-Catholic books and websites cite the quote. Anti-Catholics are known liars so this should not be a surprise.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“The Gutenberg Bible was being printed from 1454 on in Mainz, Germany.”

And yet people hand copied Bibles until. . . well, today. People in the last few centuries did it whe they had little money or as an act of devotion. The Brethren - a modern day cult - copies NTs by hand, for instance.

[OKSooner]

Good point.

I know someone who's living in a circular firing squad, complete with a certain professing christian talking about who ought to be "stood up and shot" or "strung up from the nearest lamp post" for this or that - aggravated littering, for example.

It kinda bugs me and I'm inclined to think that with craziness mixed with christianity there might be some edifying history to look at.

Your point stands, though, it's probably way over my pay grade...

[DManA]

Amazing how these threads begin with an insulting frontal assault on Protestants and pretty soon it’s all about defending poor put upon Catholics.

[Religion Moderator]

Again, I need the source. When quoting a website, be sure to include the source information so that the moderators can enforce copyright restrictions.

[Alamo-Girl]

I suspect the quote may have been derived by someone's paraphrasing the texts from the Council of Trent and went from there to people quoting it as if it were an actual translation.

During Clinton's day people were saying "It's all about sex, sex, sex" as if that is what Starr said. It wasn't but repetition makes things stick.

The following text, for instance, may have been paraphrased that way from the observer perspective of a "Reformed" Christian reading it and summing it up:

The Council of Trent - Canons and Decrees - The Fourth Session

Celebrated on the eighth day of the month of April, in the year 1546.

DECREE CONCERNING THE EDITION, AND THE USE, OF THE SACRED BOOKS

Moreover, the same sacred and holy Synod,--considering that no small utility may accrue to the Church of God, if it be made known which out of all the Latin editions, now in circulation, of the sacred books, is to be held as authentic,--ordains and declares, that the said old and vulgate edition, which, by the lengthened usage of so many years, has been approved of in the Church, be, in public lectures, disputations, sermons and expositions, held as authentic; and that no one is to dare, or presume to reject it under any pretext whatever.

Furthermore, in order to restrain petulant spirits, It decrees, that no one, relying on his own skill, shall,--in matters of faith, and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine, --wresting the sacred Scripture to his own senses, presume to interpret the said sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which holy mother Church,--whose it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy Scriptures,--hath held and doth hold; or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers; even though such interpretations were never (intended) to be at any time published. Contraveners shall be made known by their Ordinaries, and be punished with the penalties by law established.

And wishing, as is just, to impose a restraint, in this matter, also on printers, who now without restraint,--thinking, that is, that whatsoever they please is allowed them,--print, without the license of ecclesiastical superiors, the said books of sacred Scripture, and the notes and comments upon them of all persons indifferently, with the press ofttimes unnamed, often even fictitious, and what is more grievous still, without the author's name; and also keep for indiscriminate sale books of this kind printed elsewhere; (this Synod) ordains and decrees, that, henceforth, the sacred Scripture, and especially the said old and vulgate edition, be printed in the most correct manner possible; and that it shall not be lawful for any one to print, or cause to be printed, any books whatever, on sacred matters, without the name of the author; nor to sell them in future, or even to keep them, unless they shall have been first examined, and approved of, by the Ordinary; under pain of the anathema and fine imposed in a canon of the last Council of Lateran: and, if they be Regulars, besides this examination and approval, they shall be bound to obtain a license also from their own superiors, who shall have examined the books according to the form of their own statutes. As to those who lend, or circulate them in manuscript, without their having been first examined, and approved of, they shall be subjected to the same penalties as printers: and they who shall have them in their possession or shall read them, shall, unless they discover the authors, be themselves regarded as the authors. And the said approbation of books of this kind shall be given in writing; and for this end it shall appear authentically at the beginning of the book, whether the book be written, or printed; and all this, that is, both the approbation and the examination, shall be done gratis, that so what ought to be approved, may be approved, and what ought to be condemned, may be condemned.

Besides the above, wishing to repress that temerity, by which the words and sentences of sacred Scripture are turned and twisted to all sorts of profane uses, to wit, to things scurrilous, fabulous, vain, to flatteries, detractions, superstitions, impious and diabolical incantations, sorceries, and defamatory libels; (the Synod) commands and enjoins, for the doing away with this kind of irreverence and contempt, and that no one may hence forth dare in any way to apply the words of sacred Scripture to these and such like purposes; that all men of this description, profaners and violators of the word of God, be by the bishops restrained by the penalties of law, and others of their own appointment.

INDICTION OF THE NEXT SESSION

Likewise, this sacred and holy Synod resolves and decrees, that the next ensuing Session be held and celebrated on the Thursday after the next most sacred festival of Pentecost.

Indeed, to a non-Catholic Christian of today this would read as a rough equivalent to "book burning."

God's Name is I AM.

[Persevero]

“Again, I need the source.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/previous_seasons/case_bible/

http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/john-hus.html

[Persevero]

Quite right, I briefly confused Tyndale (murdered for his Bible translation and distribution) with Wycliffe.

Here was Wycliffe’s fate, also indefensible:

“The Council of Constance declared Wycliffe (on 4 May 1415) a heretic and under the ban of the Church. It was decreed that his books be burned and his remains be exhumed. The exhumation was carried out in 1428 when, at the command of Pope Martin V, his remains were dug up, burned, and the ashes cast into the River Swift, which flows through Lutterworth. This is the most final of all posthumous attacks on John Wycliffe, but previous attempts had been made before the Council of Constance. The Anti-Wycliffite Statute of 1401 extended persecution to Wycliffe’s remaining followers. The “Constitutions of Oxford” of 1408 aimed to reclaim authority in all ecclesiastical matters, specifically naming John Wycliffe in a ban on certain writings, and noting that translation of Scripture into English by unlicensed laity is a crime punishable by charges of heresy.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wycliffe#Declared_a_heretic.3B_body_exhumed_and_destroyed

[Natural Law]

"Indeed, to a non-Catholic Christian of today this would read as a rough equivalent to "book burning."

I suppose that to those who have become accustomed to finding the meaning they desire in what is clearly written to mean otherwise that is an acceptable reason, but it is no excuse to repeatedly pillory the Church with falsehoods. One can only wonder what those very same "non-Catholic Christians" would do or would have done had someone published and represented the Book of Mormon as the Bible.

Furthermore, in order to restrain petulant spirits, It decrees, that no one, relying on his own skill, shall,--in matters of faith, and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine, --wresting the sacred Scripture to his own senses, presume to interpret the said sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which holy mother Church,--whose it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy Scriptures,--hath held and doth hold; or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers; even though such interpretations were never (intended) to be at any time published. Contraveners shall be made known by their Ordinaries, and be punished with the penalties by law established.

Peace be with you

[Salvation]

You are a conservative, right?

Then why do you believe wiki and pbs? Both leftist sources????????

Oh my, where’s the credibility here?

[Persevero]

Salvation,

wikipedia is just a conglomeration of known, cited sources. The biographies I have cited are not opinion pieces. The facts are the Luther was excommunicated; subject to a papal bull; condemned as an outlaw which made him legal to murder. Wycliff was indeed persecuted, Bible translation into common languages was banned, people were killed for it, Tyndale was one of them, Wycliff was dug out of his grave and burned.

These are facts, no historian of any repute disputes them. They are a matter of written record. The fact that they are conglomerated on Wiki does not make them false.

As for PBS, the history series they do called “Secrets of the Dead” is very good. I used their synopsis for their Bible history episode because it is good and summarized the situation succinctly.

I watch all manner of things on PBS, including most of their war history, which I find to be excellent quality. I know they are political liberals, but do you find nothing of value to see on it? I do.

What fact do you dispute? Luther’s excommunication? The papal bull? The outlaw declaration? Tyndale’s persecution and death? Wycliff’s persecution and exhumation? Foxe’s Book of Martyrs? The Inquisition?

These are historical facts, substantiated by plenty of recorded evidence, and their being summarized on Wikipedia or by PBS does not make them lies.

[Natural Law]

"I briefly confused Tyndale (murdered for his Bible translation and distribution) with Wycliffe."

"It was not the Catholic Church that execute Tyndale, but the Church of England after Tyndale said that the king's divorce was unbiblical.

St. Thomas More commented that searching for errors in the Tyndale Bible was similar to searching for water in the sea. Protestant Bishop Tunstall of London, certainly no friend of the Catholic Church, declared that there were upwards of 2,000 errors in Tyndale's Bible. Tyndale translated the term baptism into "washing;" Scripture into "writing;" Holy Ghost into "Holy Wind," Bishop into "Overseer," Priest into "Elder," Deacon into "Minister;" heresy into "choice;" martyr into "witness;" evangelist into "bearer of good news;" etc., etc. Many of his footnotes were vicious. For instance, Tyndale referred to the occupant of the Chair of Peter, as "that great idol, the whore of Babylon, the anti-Christ of Rome."

But most offensive and heretical was the Prologue which specifically attacked Church doctrines and teachings. His most fatal flaw was secular. In his rants he opposed rule by divine right and claimed that true power and rightful ownership of riches were for the "elect" (of which he just happened to be a prominent member).

In 1530, Tyndale wrote The Practyse of Prelates, opposing Henry VIII's divorce on the grounds that it was unscriptural and was a plot by Cardinal Wolsey to get Henry entangled in the papal courts. This resulted in the king's wrath being directed at him: he asked the emperor Charles V to have Tyndale apprehended and returned to England. Eventually, Tyndale was betrayed to the authorities. He was seized in Antwerp in 1535, betrayed by Henry Phillips, and imprisoned for 16 months in the castle of Vilvoorde near Brussels. He was tried on a charge of heresy in 1536 and sentenced to death by the Holy Roman Empire. The heresy that he was charged with was opposing the head of the Church of England - Henry VIII, not the Pope or the Catholic Church. Tyndale's final words, spoken "at the stake with a fervent zeal, and a loud voice", were reported as "Lord! Open the King of England's eyes."

"To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant" - Blessed John Henry Newman (Former Protestant)

Peace be with you

[Salvation]

If you look closely, many Catholic articles on wiki have misinformation in them, since readers can submit info. (And many have submitted mis-information which wiki then displays as truth.)

I don’t care what the program is on PBS, you are getting a leftist point of view.

[Theo]

Roman Catholic FReepers are among the most ungodly people I’ve ever come across. Predictably antagonistic, predictably arrogant.

OKSooner — talking with vlad is not worth anyone’s time. Nasty, nasty, nasty.

[Persevero]

Fine, ditch PBS and its documentaries, and stick with history texts. You will find the same information.

The Roman Catholic church persecuted and killed people for such things as translating the Bible, distributing the Bible, distributing tracts, and preaching.

It’s also done a lot of good things. I am not a “Catholic-basher,” i.e., I will give credit where credit is due. For example I don’t believe the RCs helped Hitler, and I believe many helped the Jews, some heroically. More recently, I appreciated the RC’s role in helping pass Prop. 8 in California. Etc.

But you have to be honest about your history, and deal with it, as we all do. Where sins were committed, there must be repentance.

[Belteshazzar]

Thank you, Alamo-Girl, for going to the source and posting it. It does little good simply to argue without knowing who actually said what.

Let’s see if the discussion can become a little more objective and substantive ... and honoring of Him who is, indisputably, head of the Church, Jesus Christ.

[Persevero]

Natural Law, I stand with the martyrs (unworthily, but I’m there).

The blood cries out. The persecution and murders can not be denied. The RC church should confess it and repent of it and move on. I do not hate Catholics, and I don’t think the majority of Catholics today would support such behavior. It does no one any service, least of all the RC church, to try to obfuscate it or say it doesn’t count because PBS references it in a documentary; or because articles on wiki reference it.

I am not going to pretend the persecutions, Inquisition, and burnings at stakes etc. did not happen.

The martyrs deserve better than that.

[Persevero]

As to the Blessed Henry Newman, and his observations about learning from history, I recommend to him Foxe’s Book of Martyrs, an excerpt here from chapter IV, but one can read many accounts of the persecution of Christians by the Pope at the considered time, very awful, sustained, and bloody horror:

“Thus far our history of persecution has been confined principally to the pagan world. We come now to a period, when persecution under the guise of christianity, committed more enormities than ever disgraced the annals of paganism. Disregarding the maxims and the spirit of the gospel, the papal church, arming herself with the power of the sword, vexed the church of God and wasted it for several centuries, a period most appropriately termed in history, the “dark ages.” The kings of the earth, gave their power to the “beast,” and submitted to be trodden on by the miserable vermin that often filled the papal chair, as in the case of Henry, emperor of Germany. The storm of papal persecution first burst upon the Waldenses in France.

Persecution of the Waldenses in France.

Popery having brought various innovations into the church, and overspread the christian world with darkness and superstition, some few, who plainly perceived the pernicious tendency of such errors, determined to show the light of the gospel in its real purity, and to disperse those clouds which artful priests had raised about it, in order to blind the people, and obscure its real brightness.

The principal among these was Berengarius, who, about the year 1000, boldly preached gospel truths, according to their primitive purity. Many, from conviction, assented to his doctrine, and were, on that account, called Berengarians. To Berengarius succeeded Peter Bruis, who preached at Thoulouse, under the protection of an earl, named Hildephonsus; and the whole tenets of the reformers, with the reasons of their separation from the church of Rome, were published in a book written by Bruis, under the title of Anti-Christ.[54]

By the year of Christ 1140, the number of the reformed was very great, and the probability of its increasing alarmed the pope, who wrote to several princes to banish them from their dominions, and employed many learned men to write against their doctrines.

A. D. 1147, Henry of Thoulouse, being deemed their most eminent preacher, they were called Henericians; and as they would not admit of any proofs relative to religion, but what could be deduced from the scriptures themselves, the popish party gave them the name of apostolics. At length, Peter Waldo, or Valdo, a native of Lyons, eminent for his piety and learning, became a strenuous opposer of popery; and from him the reformed, at that time, received the appellation of Waldenses or Waldoys.

Pope Alexander III being informed by the bishop of Lyons of these transactions, excommunicated Waldo and his adherents, and commanded the bishop to exterminate them, if possible, from the face of the earth; and hence began the papal persecutions against the Waldenses.

The proceedings of Waldo and the reformed, occasioned the first rise of the inquisitors; for pope Innocent III. authorized certain monks as inquisitors, to inquire for, and deliver over, the reformed to the secular power. The process was short, as an accusation was deemed adequate to guilt, and a candid trial was never granted to the accused.

The pope, finding that these cruel means had not the intended effect, sent several learned monks to preach among the Waldenses, and to endeavour to argue them out of their opinions. Among these monks was one Dominic, who appeared extremely zealous in the cause of popery. This Dominic instituted an order, which, from him, was called the order of Dominican friars; and the members of this order have ever since been the principal inquisitors in the various inquisitions in the world. The power of the inquisitors was unlimited; they proceeded against whom they pleased, without any consideration of age, sex, or rank. Let the accusers be ever so infamous, the accusation was deemed valid; and even anonymous informations, sent by letter, were thought sufficient evidence. To be rich was a crime equal to heresy; therefore many who had money were accused of heresy, or of being favourers of heretics, that they might be obliged to pay for their opinions. The dearest friends or nearest kindred could not, without danger, serve any one who was imprisoned on account of religion. To convey to those who were confined, a little straw, or give them a cup of water, was called favouring of the heretics, and they were prosecuted accordingly. No lawyer dared to plead for his own brother, and their malice even extended beyond the grave; hence the bones of many were dug up and burnt, as examples to the living. If a man on his death-bed was accused of being a follower of Waldo, his estates were confiscated, and the heir to them defrauded of his inheritance; and some were sent to the[55] Holy Land, while the Dominicans took possession of their houses and properties, and, when the owners returned, would often pretend not to know them. These persecutions were continued for several centuries under different popes and other great dignitaries of the catholic church.”

Foxe’s Book of Martyrs is a long book, and historically authentic, and despite it perhaps being referenced on wikipedia or perhaps even public television, should be given the utmost credence.

Learn from history, indeed. We all should.

[spunkets]

Re: The Gutenberg Bible was being printed from 1454 on in Mainz, Germany.

"And yet people hand copied Bibles until. . . well, today. People in the last few centuries did it whe they had little money or as an act of devotion. The Brethren - a modern day cult - copies NTs by hand, for instance.

The contention was that Bibles were not available to be read by folks, because of their rarety caused by the limitations imposed by being a large handwritten article.

[Salvation]

**large handwritten article.**

Would not that have been a large handwritten scroll in the beginning?

[Salvation]

http://www.ideafinder.com/features/everwonder/won-printbook.htm

The first mass produced printed book was the Bible, a version based on the Latin edition from about 380 AD.. The Bible was printed at Mainz, Germany by Johannes Gutenberg from 1452 -1455.. Although German bibliographers claim that it was may also have been finished and perfected by Johann Fust, a wealthy financier who gained Gutenberg’s share of the business in a lawsuit; and Peter Schöffer, Gutenberg’s assistant.

The oldest surviving Bible printed with movable type is often called the Gutenberg Bible (named after its printer Johannes Gutenberg), or the 42-line Bible (so called because with few exceptions, each page has 42 lines of print), or the Mazarin Bible (because the first copy to recapture attention in 1760 was found in the library of Cardinal Jules Mazarin, in Paris).

[spunkets]

"Wycliffe was dead for more than 40 years (of a stroke) when his bones were burned. He was never charged with, tried for, or burned for translating the Bible since that wasn’t a crime.

Translating the Bible w/o permisssion was a crime. It was heresy. Pope Martin V ordered his Bibles, books, writings, and bones burned for the crime of heresy.

[spunkets]

I think a large book would be a collection of many scrolls.

[Natural Law]

"I am not going to pretend the persecutions, Inquisition, and burnings at stakes etc. did not happen."

Your errors are in pretending to know something of them and insinuating that they were a uniquely Catholic phenomenon. You would do yourself a great favor to stop getting your history from the internet.

Peace be with you.

[Natural Law]

"As to the Blessed Henry Newman, and his observations about learning from history, I recommend to him Foxe’s Book of Martyrs..."

To insinuate that the Blessed John Henry Newman was ignorant of Foxes' work is preposterous. The Blessed John Henry Newman (1801 - 1890) was originally an evangelical Oxford academic and priest in the Church of England. In 1845 he left the Church of England and was received into the Roman Catholic Church where he was eventually granted the rank of cardinal by Pope Leo XIII.

I am very confident that the Blessed John Henry Newman saw Foxes Book of Martyrs for what it was, a highly distorted and one sided piece of Reformation propaganda. It has all of the agenda and veracity of "The Awful Disclosures of Maria Monk".

Peace be with you

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Quite right, I briefly confused Tyndale (murdered for his Bible translation and distribution) with Wycliffe.”

Uh, no, your confusion is apparently longterm and not brief. Tyndale was not executed for translating anything. All reputable historians agree on that point. Just read David Daniell’s biography of Tyndale. I did. Hence, I don’t make the mistake you’re making.

“Here was Wycliffe’s fate, also indefensible:”

Actually it was quite defensible.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“The contention was that Bibles were not available to be read by folks, because of their rarety caused by the limitations imposed by being a large handwritten article.”

And yet the evidence shows that contention to be silly at best. Yes, there were fewer books and they were very expensive because the materials used and time they took to make. Yet, by the late Middle Ages, books were being produced in huge quantities - even by hand.

Ever hear of Uwe Neddermeyer’s Von der Handschrift zum gedruckten Buch, Schriftlichkeit und Leseinteresse im Mittelalter und in der frühen Neuzeit,
Quantitative und qualitative Aspekte (Buchwissenschaftliche Beiträge aus dem deutschen Bucharchiv München 61, Wiesbaden: Harassowitz, 1998)? Ever? No, probably not. I bet no Protestant here ever has. He demonstrates that there were many more mss. Bibles than we realize today.

Ever hear of Andrew Gow’s articles “Challenging the Protestant Paradigm. Bible Reading in Lay and Urban Contexts of the Later Middle Ages.” in: Thomas Heffernan, ed., Scripture and Pluralism. The Study of the Bible in the Religiously Plural Worlds of the Middle Ages and the Renaissance. Leiden: Brill, 2005, 161-191 ? or
“The Contested History of a Book: The German Bible of the Later Middle Ages and Reformation in Legend, Ideology, and Scholarship,” in: The Journal of Hebrew Scripture 9,13 (2009), 1-37?

Ever? I bet not.

Maybe those works are too new for you. How about Erich Zimmermann’s 1938 monograph which showed clerical, noble and commoner ownership of Bibles and books of the Bible in the fifteenth century. He shows, for instance, that the scribal workshop of Diebold Lauber in Hagenau, active 1427–1467, produced a large number of Bible manuscripts. Many of the clients were city merchants and artists. The book was called Die deutsche Bibel im religiösen Leben des Spätmittelalters (Potsdam, 1938).

Ever hear of it? Ever? Even once?

The simple fact is I know what I am talking about while the Protestants here seem to never have read even one single serious, reputable work on the subject. Not one.

[Natural Law]

"Actually it was quite defensible."

The error comes when we presume to judge historical characters and events, not in the context of their times, but in the context of our delicate, first world, 21st century sensibilities.

Peace be with you

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Translating the Bible w/o permisssion was a crime. It was heresy.”

False. No action is heresy other than to hold to an erroneous doctrinal belief after being formally corrected by proper religious authority. That, and that alone, is heresy. No act of translation is heresy nor can it be heresy. An act of translation might be an example of someone spreading heresy if what is translated is heretical, but the act of translating itself cannot be heresy. In other words, drinking a class of water because you’re thirsting cannot be heresy. Changing a flat tire because it is flat cannot be heresy. Putting on a suit for a job interview cannot be heresy. Translating a document, even a sacred one, into the vernacular, cannot be heresy in itself. It just can’t be and it never once.

“Pope Martin V ordered his Bibles, books, writings, and bones burned for the crime of heresy.”

Yes, because he believed and spread heresies such as dominion and false theories about the Eucharist. When you read through some of the works of
J. Loserth (especially what he edited) you will have a better idea of what Wycliffe believed and taught.

Most likely, just like every other Protestant I have ever encountered who claimed he knew something about Wycliffe, you have probably never read anything Wycliffe ever wrote. Is that right? Which of the following books have you read?:

De actibus animae, De civili dominio, De ecclesia, De ente in communi and De ente primo in communi, De ente praedicamentali, De eucharistia, De materia et forma, De officio regis, De potestate papae, De scientia Dei, Purgans errores circa veritates in communi, Purgans errores circa universalia in communi, De intelleccione Dei, and De volucione Dei, Summa insolubilium, Tractatus de logica, Tractatus de universalibus, De Trinitate, Tractatus de universalibus, De veritate Sacrae Scripturae,
Trialogus.

Ever even heard of any of them? Any at all?

[spunkets]

Re: The contention was that Bibles were not available to be read by folks, because of their rarety caused by the limitations imposed by being a large handwritten article.”

"And yet the evidence shows that contention to be silly at best. Yes, there were fewer books and they were very expensive because the materials used and time they took to make. Yet, by the late Middle Ages, books were being produced in huge quantities - even by hand.

That was Salvation's contention. Nevertheless, printing presses allow a larger volume of books to be printed with a much lower cost in man hours. The books therefore are cheaper and are more available with printing tech.

[spunkets]

Re: Translating the Bible w/o permisssion was a crime. It was heresy.

" False. No action is heresy other than to hold to an erroneous doctrinal belief after being formally corrected by proper religious authority.

You're right; I was just being stupid.

"Most likely, just like every other Protestant I have ever encountered who claimed he knew something about Wycliffe... Is that right?"

No it is not. I never claimed to know anything about him. What I said was that his bones were ordered dug up and burned by Pope Martin V. Now I'll say something about his work. He preached Calvinist type doctrines.

"he believed and spread heresies such as dominion and false theories about the Eucharist.

Heresy according to who?

[Alamo-Girl]

Let’s see if the discussion can become a little more objective and substantive ... and honoring of Him who is, indisputably, head of the Church, Jesus Christ.

Amen. Praise God!!!

Thank you for your encouragements, dear Belteshazzar!

[Alamo-Girl]

Seems to me there's always been a lot of information "out there" - good, bad, ugly, fraudulent, etc. Some of it was written, some word of mouth.

But I trust God to look after His own words to accomplish His own will.

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it. - Isaiah 55:11

The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. - Psalms 12:6-7

And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. - John 10:4-5

Jesus is the Good Shepherd. We hear His voice.

Peace be with you

And you.

[boatbums]

It is very sad to see, but you are experiencing right now what some of those genuine Christians did back then when they DARED to face off with the ruling religious power of their day. Fortunately for us, this power is no longer theirs to wield and they have failed to obliterate or rewrite all of history to hide the many UN-Christian acts done ostensibly FOR the name of Christ. The truth will ALWAYS win.

It is plain to see that God always kept a remnant that did not bow the knee to idols and false gods. It was true in ancient Israel's day and is still true all the way through to today. What matters MOST to God is the heart of man and a "broken and contrite heart He will not despise" (Psalm 51:17). What God requires of us has NEVER changed - because HE never changes - and what does He require of us?

He has showed you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God? (Micah 6:8)

We can look at how the Lord Jesus behaved while physically here on earth, how his disciples behaved, to know how he would have his church, his body, behave on earth as we physically represent him to the world. Those who acted and still act without humility, gentleness, goodness, mercy and love do NOT truly represent him. He wants us to walk in truth because He IS truth, but he would never bully or force someone to believe on him. Those who did so and those who still act that way now are NOT representing Him but their own self-interests and pride. When pride rules the heart, no amount of truth can penetrate.

All we can do is to pray for them and not allow their negativity and anger to effect us in our walk with the Lord.

[Just mythoughts]

Where is it Written that flesh beings are in charge of declaring anybody a ‘saint’? What does the word ‘saint’ literally mean in the first original usage? Would Catholics refuse to enter heaven IF they were greeted by Luther at Heaven’s gate? I thought we are told to NOT judge, lest we be judged...

[boatbums]

You mean THIS Catejan:

Writing prior to the canon decision at the Council of Trent, Cajetan wrote:

"Here we close our commentaries on the historical books of the Old Testament. For the rest (that is, Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees) are counted by St Jerome out of the canonical books, and are placed amongst the Apocrypha, along with Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, as is plain from the Prologus Galeatus. Nor be thou disturbed, like a raw scholar, if thou shouldest find anywhere, either in the sacred councils or the sacred doctors, these books reckoned as canonical. For the words as well of councils as of doctors are to be reduced to the correction of Jerome. Now, according to his judgment, in the epistle to the bishops Chromatius and Heliodorus, these books (and any other like books in the canon of the bible) are not canonical, that is, not in the nature of a rule for confirming matters of faith. Yet, they may be called canonical, that is, in the nature of a rule for the edification of the faithful, as being received and authorised in the canon of the bible for that purpose. By the help of this distinction thou mayest see thy way clearly through that which Augustine says, and what is written in the provincial council of Carthage." -Cardinal Cajetan (16th century)

Cajetan recognized that though the deuterocanonicals may be called canonical, they were not recognized as canonical in the same sense as the other Old Testament books. (http://thesearewritten.blogspot.com/2007/08/cardinal-cajetan-on-biblical-canon.html

It appears to me that WRT the genuine canon of the Bible, Catejan actually AGREED with Luther. It should be plain that, contrary to the legend, Luther did NOT remove books from the Bible after all - he placed the Apocryphal books in a seperate section of his German translation as did the Septuagint. He was closer to orthodoxy than Roman Catholicism was and is.

[Persevero]

“Actually it was quite defensible.”

Exhuming a man’s body and burning it is quite defensible?

You and I are not speaking the same language.

[Persevero]

” a highly distorted and one sided piece of Reformation propaganda.”

I am very discouraged and disappointed to read that. If you can not accept the historical record of the martyrdom of these precious saints, I can’t really discourse with you anymore. How anyone can trample their testimony and sacrifice is absolutely beyond me.