As to end times, the DR version of the Bible must have left out the admonition regarding the rise and proliferation of false prophets, but then it must have also omitted: Ephesians 2:7-9
Posted on 07/02/2012 6:30:14 AM PDT by Cronos
I want to thank Archbishop William E. Lori for reminding me once again why I'm an ex-Catholic ("Fight for freedom," June 27). With the so-called "Fortnight for Freedom," the church leadership is deliberately and cynically using a mixture of patriotism and religion in a blatant and manipulative attempt to influence the outcome of the upcoming elections.
I can't seem to recall any recent news about Catholic churches being bombed in the United States or attempts to bar American Catholics from attending mass. I do know that the Catholic Church has been using its "religious freedom" for decades to aid and abet child abusers, to recently attack nuns in the United States who are at the forefront of what used to be one of the church's primary missions to aid and comfort the poor and needy, and that the American church has over the past few decades formed an alliance with some of the most strident and politically active right-wing religious groups in the U.S. Archbishop Lori even received an award in May from a coalition of some of those groups.
I am proud to be an American, and I am a strong supporter of the Bill of Rights. I support freedom of religion, and I support freedom from religion. And, at this moment in time, I am also very proud and happy to be an ex-Catholic.
Sandy Covahey, Baltimore
(Excerpt) Read more at baltimoresun.com ...
“it’s not nearly as hard as you are making it out to be. it’s the love from Christ that when accepted ignites faith, FROM WHICH WORKS COME. the Lord gives you SOME CONTROL over the size of the faith in you, but only the Lord can actually effect its presence.”
~ ~ ~
God does not make you do anything. Any kind of “control”
would not be true love.
There is more than faith required. Your same and not to be mean, vague “from which works come.”
Where does one’s free will come in? You have to choose to act on the faith God has given you. How about the better explanation I just posted and in it, so important to you all, other Scripture verses to confirm.
blessings,
“faith does not guarantee a perfect walk on earth. you have set up a straw man. FAITH always burns WITH WORKS of some sort, however, whether they are only small ones that scarcely anyone but God can see, or large ones that are obvious to all men.”
~ ~ ~
I think you are going to say “yes” at the time of the Great
Warning. You state a Truth, you include two words together “faith and works.” Martin Luther said it is “faith” alone.
You me nothing. I feel like I benefit from the give and take discussions I’ve had and trust the other poster does too.
I only have a short amount of time at any one setting so this works out well for me.
I have deliberately used Luther’s preferred analogy when likening it to a fire. (I’m not a Lutheran.)
But a fire is a unitary phenomenon. That’s what I’m getting at. If you have a fire, it consumes fuel and air, and it brings forth heat and light. Likewise the faith-works duality is a united phenomenon. What evangelicals protest is a sort of false “churchianity” which makes dry assertions then tries in a humanly power to show how good it is. This was a bigger problem with Roman congregations in Luther’s day than it is now.
Another example of not really knowing the truth of what you state.
From http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/Reformation_faith_works.html
“In his Introduction to Romans, Luther stated that saving faith is,
a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever...Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! [http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-faith.txt]
This is what I have often said, if faith be true, it will break forth and bear fruit. If the tree is green and good, it will not cease to blossom forth in leaves and fruit. It does this by nature. I need not first command it and say: Look here, tree, bear apples. For if the tree is there and is good, the fruit will follow unbidden. If faith is present works must follow.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:340-341]
“We must therefore most certainly maintain that where there is no faith there also can be no good works; and conversely, that there is no faith where there are no good works. Therefore faith and good works should be so closely joined together that the essence of the entire Christian life consists in both.” [Martin Luther, as cited by Paul Althaus, The Theology of Martin Luther [Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1963], 246, footnote 99]
What Augustine says is indeed true: He who has created you without yourself will not save you without yourself. Works are necessary for salvation, but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life. For the sake of hypocrites it should be said that good works are necessary for salvation. Works must be done, but it does not follow from this that works save… Works save externally, that is, they testify that we are just and that in a man there is that faith which saves him internally, as Paul says: ‘With the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation’.” [What Luther Says 3: 1509]. [Ewald M. Plass, “What Luther says,” page 1509]
“Thus faith casts itself on God, and breaks forth and becomes certain through its works. When this takes place a person becomes known to me and to other people. For when I thus break forth I spare neither man nor devil, I cast myself down, and will have nothing to do with lofty affairs, and will regard myself as the poorest sinner on earth. This assures me of my, faith. For this is what it says: "This man went down to his house justified." Thus we attribute salvation as the principal thing to faith, and works as the witnesses of faith. They make one so certain that he concludes from the outward life that the faith is genuine.”[Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:341]
“Thus, faith must be exercised, worked and polished; be purified by fire, like gold. Faith, the great gift and treasure from God, must express itself and triumph in the certainty that it is right before God and man, and before angels, devils and the whole world. Just as a jewel is not to be concealed, but to be worn in sight, so also, will and must faith be worn and exhibited, as it is written in 1 Peter 1, 7: "That the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire," etc.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2:245-246]
In those therefore in whom we cannot realize good works, we can immediately say and conclude: they heard of faith, but it did not sink into good soil. For if you continue in pride and lewdness, in greed and anger, and yet talk much of faith, St. Paul will come and say, 1 Cor. 4:20, look here my dear Sir, "the kingdom of God is not in word but in power." It requires life and action, and is not brought about by mere talk.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:341-342]
“All believers are like poor Lazarus; and every believer is a true Lazarus, for he is of the same faith, mind and will, as Lazarus. And whoever will not be a Lazarus, will surely have his portion with the rich glutton in the flames of hell. For we all must like Lazarus trust in God, surrender ourselves to him to work in us according to his own good pleasure, and be ready to serve all men. And although we all do not suffer from such sores and poverty, yet the same mind and will must be in us, that were in Lazarus, cheerfully to bear such things, wherever God wills it.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:25]
“This is why St. Luke and St. James have so much to say about works, so that one says: Yes, I will now believe, and then he goes and fabricates for himself a fictitious delusion, which hovers only on the lips as the foam on the water. No, no; faith is a living and an essential thing, which makes a new creature of man, changes his spirit and wholly and completely converts him. It goes to the foundation and there accomplishes a renewal of the entire man; so, if I have previously seen a sinner, I now see in his changed conduct, manner and life, that he believes. So high and great a thing is faith.”[Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:341]
“Works are a certain sign, like a seal on a letter, which make me certain that my faith is genuine. [cf. 1Jn. 5:13] As a result if I examine my heart and find that my works are done in love, then I am certain that my faith is genuine. If I forgive, then my forgiving makes me certain that my faith is genuine and assures me and demonstrates my faith to me.” [Martin Luther, as cited by Paul Althaus, The Theology of Martin Luther [Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1963], 247, footnote 106]
“Hence the beginning of goodness or Godliness is not in us, but in the Word of God. God must first let his Word sound in our hearts by which we learn to know and to believe him, and afterwards do good works.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:339]
“When works follow it becomes apparent that we have faith…” [Martin Luther, as cited by Paul Althaus, The Theology of Martin Luther [Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1963], 247, footnote 106
“..that alone can be called Christian faith, which believes without wavering that Christ is the Saviour not only to Peter and to the saints but also to you....Such a faith will work in you love for Christ and joy in him, and good works will naturally follow. If they do not, faith is surely not present: for where faith is, there the Holy Ghost is and must work love and good works.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 1:21-22]
“For it is impossible for him who believes in Christ, as a just Savior, not to love and to do good. If, however, he does not do good nor love, it is sure that faith is not present. Therefore man knows by the fruits what kind of a tree it is, and it is proved by love and deed whether Christ is in him and he believes in Christ. As St. Peter says in 2 Pet. 1, 10: "Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure; for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble," that is, if you bravely practice good works you will be sure and cannot doubt that God has called and chosen you.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 1:40]
“But here we must take to heart the good example of Christ in that he appeals to his works, even as the tree is known by its fruits, thus rebuking all false teachers, the pope, bishops, priests and monks to appear in the future and shield themselves by his name, saying, "We are Christians;" just as the pope is boasting that he is the vicar of Christ. Here we have it stated that where the works are absent, there is also no Christ. Christ is a living, active and fruit- bearing character who does not rest, but works unceasingly wherever he is. Therefore, those bishops and teachers that are not doing the works of Christ, we should avoid and consider as wolves.”[Sermons of Martin Luther 1:93]
Christ is the priest, all men are spiritual lepers because of unbelief; but when we come to faith in him he touches us With his hand, gives and lays upon us his merit and we become clean and whole without any merit on our part whatever. We are therefore to show our gratitude to him and acknowledge that we have not become pious by our own works, but through his grace, then our course will be right before God...[Sermons of Luther 1:152]
“For if your heart is in the state of faith that you know your God has revealed himself to you to be so good and merciful, without thy merit, and purely gratuitously, while you were still his enemy and a child of eternal wrath; if you believe this, you cannot refrain from showing yourself so to your neighbor; and do all out of love to God and for the welfare of your neighbor. Therefore, see to it that you make no distinction between friend and foe, the worthy and the unworthy; for you see that all who were here mentioned, have merited from us something different than that we should love and do them good. And the Lord also teaches this, when in Luke 6:35 he says: "But love your enemies, and do good unto them, and lend, never despairing; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be sons of the Most High: for he is kind toward the unthankful and evil." [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:101]
“Therefore we must close our eyes, not look at our works, whether they be great, small, honorable, contemptible, spiritual, temporal or what kind of an appearance and name they may have upon earth; but look to the command and to the obedience in the works. Do they govern you, then the work also is truly right and precious, and completely godly, although it springs forth as insignificant as a straw. However, if obedience and God’s commandments do not dominate you, then the work is not right, but damnable, surely the devil’s own doings, although it were even so great a work as to raise the dead...And St. Peter says, Ye are to be as faithful, good shepherds or administrators of the manifold grace of God; so that each one may serve the other, and be helpful to him by means of what he has received, 1 Peter 4:10. See, here Peter says the grace and gifts of God are not one but manifold, and each is to tend to his own, develop the same and through them be of service to others.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 1:244]
In addition, upon hearing that he was being charged with rejection of the Old Testament moral law, Luther responded,
And truly, I wonder exceedingly, how it came to be imputed to me, that I should reject the Law or ten Commandments, there being extant so many of my own expositions (and those of several sorts) upon the Commandments, which also are daily expounded, and used in our Churches, to say nothing of the Confession and Apology, and other books of ours. Martin Luther, ["A Treatise against Antinomians, written in an Epistolary way", http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_against_the_antinomians.html]
“What you’ve described is God, the Father with His son acting at his behest and direction as his agent.”
I have provided and referred to far more than your minimization of Christ, as the the collective attributions and descriptions of the Son exclude Him from merely being a created agent, but God by nature, who Himself defines what “one” means, as the “US” who made man, and who created all things by Himself, (Is. 44:24) even (in distinguishing Him not angels) the incomparable God (Is. 46:9) who made heaven and earth by His hands, (Heb. 1:8-12; Ps. 102:25-27) the Almighty. (Rv. 1:8)
But as you ignore such and use the hierarchy of order to reduce Christ to a mere angel-type agent, and reject Him as being both your Lord and your God, (Jn. 20:28) and then i leave you to bow before Him as God when He will be uniquely worshiped by all creation, (Rv. 5:11-14) by many as an acknowledgment of fact, not salvific faith.
For about the bazillionth time.....
They are NOT *our own prophets*.
Nobody on this thread, some Catholics included, recognize as valid anything those false prophets have to say or accept what they have to say as from God.
Anyone who does is being deceived and is on the wide road to destruction.
Take note....
We are warning you that you’re listening to lies if you think that what these guys have to say is from God.
What a wonderful and edifying collection of statements on the evangelical understanding of the relationship between faith and works in the life of the believer. Thank you!
Peace,
SR
This is where your and many other Catholics main error is.
We accept CHRIST, not "the faith". There's a world of difference between faith and "the faith".
Putting your faith in your "faith" is not going to save you. Faith is the means by which we are saved, it's the mechanism through which we are saved. We're not saved by our faith in our faith when that is just another word for the church we belong to. We are saved by grace through faith IN CHRIST.
It's Christ who saves us. If your faith is in your faith, you are trusting the wrong thing. You need to trust a person, Christ, not your ability to have faith.
Your false prophet is a liar.
Ephesians 2:1-10 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions —it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Romans 10:6-13 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Amen. So few words, so much said. It sums it up well. Salvation is only found by “looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith,” not the other way around.
May God bless your labor of love in him.
Peace,
SR
err... who exactly is Kevin Barrett? And why is he a prophet?
But it is no such thing to Paul, who wrote under inspiration of that spirit and truthfully said,
“There is us to us one God, the Father, out (ek) of whom all things are, and we for Him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through (dia) whom all things are, and we through him”.
The Father is the origin and the Son is His agent, his channel. The Father is the “one God”, God the Father, not God the Son. (1 Cor. 8:6)
Paul goes on to call Christ “the image (eikon) of the invisible God,” the same word Jesus used when pointing to Caesar’s image on a coin.
(Col. 1:15)
Christ is the “firstborn of all creation” and John records what the Amen says of Christ: “...the beginning (arche) of the creation by God”. (Rev.3:14)
The language is not complicated or esoteric as it uses common terms known to all.
But are not the Father, Son and Spirit One as Jesus said he and his father were one?
Jesus prayed to the one he called “my God” and requested that his followers “may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they may be in union with us...in order that they be one just as we are one” (John 17:21,22)
Then why would Jesus be called all the titles he was, even being called a god? Jesus said all judging had been given him by the Father so that’
“....in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father...”.
The honor of Father and Son was bound together. (John 5:23)
Abraham, Moses, Jacob could speak to representatives or agents of God in the first person as though they were God Himself and properly so if one understands the full significance of agency in the Scriptures.
““What you’ve described is God, the Father with His son acting at his behest and direction as his agent.”
Yes, that is what I said and that cannot be made “mere”.
Would that ONE true faith be Roman Catholic?
Or Ukrainian Catholic?
Or Russian Orthodox?
Or Greek Orthodox?
Pre- Vatican II or post-Vatican II?
Or Byzantine rite?
Or Armenian rite?
Or Benedictine rite?
Or Dominican?
Or Franciscan?
Exactly which flavor of Catholic is the one true faith?
Good questions because I most certainly have never heard of him before and am not going to be accepting any claim of him or anyone else being a prophet just on some anonymous internet poster's say so.
And I do not and will not trust some self-proclaimed prophet based their own claims about themselves. Anyone can say anything and without any credible, outside source validating them, it's all meaningless.
Google “kevin barrett” “openheaven”
Then study the openheaven group. It’s an eye-opener. Good link here:
http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain45.htm
Puts Swedenborg’s supernatural cavorting to shame, a mere piker compared to these guys
Sorry I can’t do more. I have a lousy internet connection today.
Bottom line, looks like someone saw “posted by” and mistook it for “prophet.” That’d never happen to us here of course.
Peace,
SR
“For about the bazillionth time.....
They are NOT *our own prophets*.
Nobody on this thread, some Catholics included, recognize as valid anything those false prophets have to say or accept what they have to say as from God.”
~ ~ ~
Oh metmom,
God prepares, warns and helps strengthen the faithful with prophecy. You choose to reject prophecy. Post a current message from Heaven you approve of then.
You don’t like what Our Lord said to Kevin, he’s not
Catholic, he’s a non-Catholic Christian. He receives teaching messages. It’s so ridiculous, you Martin Luther fans will not touch the message and say why it is false. Christ totally and repeatedly shows you why “Faith Alone” is a lie. Quit believing the heresies.
Sola Fide is not true, the “altar call” does not justify, the “prosperity gospel” is a lie.
Kevin’s website: http://hearhisheart.wordpress.com/
an excerpt fro the April 1, 2012 message:
Oh hear Me, My people. Why do you listen to the hirelings and false teachers and prophets? Did I not say in My word that not all that say to me ‘Lord’ ‘Lord’ shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, save those that do the will of the Father who is in heaven? Then why do you still go about doing your own will and tell yourselves that you are My bride? My people, you have been lied to by the enemy of your soul. Seek Me in these things. Surely I will reveal My truth to you. I love you, My dear children, and it is My desire that each of you share My throne with Me. But unfortunately only a remnant shall overcome. For too many have listened to the lies told by the FALSE shepherds and prophets. They speak of how you each are already cleansed and adorned in righteousness simply by your BELIEF on My name. These are all lies, My people. For does not My word say that he who DOES righteousness is righteous? Yes, My people, you are made righteous by your faith in Me, but it is FULLFILLED BY YOUR OBEDIENCE to My voice. IT IS NOT IMPUTED TO YOU BY A ONE-TIME CONFESSION OF MY NAME. Oh, My people, you have been lied to. Read My word for yourselves. Why listen to those that fatten themselves by fleecing My sheep? I have not sent many of the shepherds that are out there. They have sent themselves for their own glory and their own profit. Oh, My people, did I not say in My word to judge them by their fruit? Then where is the fruit, My people? Oh, but those that have itching ears care not about the fruit. They want to be told all is well and that they shall PROSPER if they simply believe on My name and My promises. Lies, lies, lies, I tell you.
“I have deliberately used Luther’s preferred analogy when likening it to a fire. (I’m not a Lutheran.)
But a fire is a unitary phenomenon. That’s what I’m getting at. If you have a fire, it consumes fuel and air, and it brings forth heat and light. Likewise the faith-works duality is a united phenomenon. What evangelicals protest is a sort of false “churchianity” which makes dry assertions then tries in a humanly power to show how good it is. This was a bigger problem with Roman congregations in Luther’s day than it is now.”
~ ~ ~
Why do you use any example of Martin Luther? The man has
a horrid history, he was not a holy man.
I don’t know if it’s the right word “duality” but if you mean the two are required for Salvation, yes, it’s both faith and works. I agree, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-10, not by our own works which is a false show of being good, rather, it’s deciding to do a work, a genuine work, a good with God’s help, His grace.
Evangelicals and most Protestants protest more than a fake show of works, you all profess works are not required for
Salvation.
You mentioned false acts of goodness in Luther’s time because the true faith existed then, there wasn’t Protestantism yet, it was just beginning. You have your own, one example, the “Toronto blessing”. About “false Churchanity.” Non-Catholics accept some rituals in the Old Testament, God desires certain rituals, the most pleasing to Him, the holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
“My friend, the current respondent claims word from our Lord, that are of course finished by ‘Love to All, Jesus’. Since I’m not Paul, I would still love to hear or read his words to one such as this. I assume nothing, other than the poster is a ‘fake?’ catholic, that relies upon latter day prophecy that plays to catholic or protestant in turn depending on the audience.”
~ ~ ~
Our Lord wants you to become Roman Catholic and is personally going to reveal this to you and all souls in the Great Warning. (Rev 6:15-17).
Your error, it’s kinda funny, you’ll bring up the closing
of the message, Jesus saying love but won’t say a word about what is wrong with the message. I wonder why, no one has yet.
And if you go to the message, Jesus does not end say “Love
to All, Jesus.”
http://hearhisheart.wordpress.com/
Protest as you do, Kevin is a non-Catholic Christian.
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