As to end times, the DR version of the Bible must have left out the admonition regarding the rise and proliferation of false prophets, but then it must have also omitted: Ephesians 2:7-9
Posted on 07/02/2012 6:30:14 AM PDT by Cronos
Pio, the evangelical treatment of this is no secret. Faith will always, always, always result in some kind of work. If it did not, it would be like talking of a fire that burns but makes no heat.
Unlike some posters, most have read the whole thread, tee, hee, and see the fallacy (sorry for the fancy word meaning error) of other's stated position, the abject knuckleheadedness of the other's position notwithstanding. Good luck with the dictionary. I hope the yeast count is down. Lack of intelligence isn't an excuse, but willful spiritual blindness is to be expected for those who spend their time in the counsel of those who seek to calm the itching ear.
Ain’t it the sad sad truth. I was going to start a blog called “someone on the internet is wrong,” but someone else was already using it. Argh!
Peace,
SR
Only to one who has been 'stoogeified' by the company they keep. One who relies on the 'Fakecy' of a bunch of Baalist priests, then cherry picks verses out of context to support the nonsense, deserves the same thing God delivered via Elijah. Unlike others on this thread who have rightly declined to engage based upon the reliance on latter day loser 'prophets', I will continue, although the thoughts and position of someone proposing the same positions is painful. These truly are the last days of which my Lord spoke. Even Satan knows the basics of the Scriptures, while he doesn't believe, he uses that knowledge to dupe the stupid that rely on their own understanding and don't hold to God's Word. .
“Sure lost track of the original issue in the middle of a protestant/catholic bashfest here.”
~ ~ ~
Hi,
“Issue” with accepting the faith...it’s never been resolved so who cares. There’s an answer.
The disagreements between Protestants and Catholics will go on for another 100 years unless God acts. He’s going to and He keeps letting us know through prophecy.
Protestants are repeatedly protesting, declaring, calling their own prophet false. They don’t like Our Lord’s words to Kevin Barrett. Jesus’ words have been believed and shared for 2000 years.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Really, stpio, when are you going to show any evidence that you actually READ any replies given to you? Now here you are giving ANOTHER dubious "quote" of Luther's with NO source to back it up, as per your usual habit. Do you really think people will just believe something because you said it? Besides that, no one here has said Luther is whom we look for our salvation. He was NOT the only, nor even the first, Reformer and he is a man who sins as we ALL do. He is not our "Pope" nor do any Lutherans consider him to be. We look to the Divinely-inspired Holy Bible for the doctrines we must follow to know God and be saved - just as Luther did and advised ALL to do.
It is sounding like you are striking out in the, "Let's dig up all the dirt we can on Luther...yeah that'll show 'em!" department. Is this such a hard thing to understand that "Protestants" don't look to any other than Jesus Christ for our faith? The only prophets we listen to are the ones already included in the Bible. They spoke for God and we can be confident that what is in Scripture IS God's word. What real proof do you have that the ones you are promoting are genuine? Because they say what you already believe? God already told us how we can know who speaks for Him, and your "guys" do NOT cut it. If they were talking like this in Old Testament times around the faithful Jews, they would NOT have been happy with their treatment...God commanded that false prophets be stoned - and not the "fun" kind of being stoned either.
And one last time...I and others HAVE replied to your badgering about those verses on this as well as other threads but it seems to make no difference. What would be the point if I answered them again? Would it do anything to change your mind? Is your mind already made up and nothing anyone says can affect it? See, that just might be a clue why the reception you are experiencing here is not as you probably expected.
My friend, the current respondent claims word from our Lord, that are of course finished by ‘Love to All, Jesus’. Since I’m not Paul, I would still love to hear or read his words to one such as this. I assume nothing, other than the poster is a ‘fake?’ catholic, that relies upon latter day prophecy that plays to catholic or protestant in turn depending on the audience. That equated such ramblings with the testimony of Daniel and St John. Relies on kooky website for ammo, but might if unchallenged lead a weak brother/sister astray into the darkness in which they reside. Many more erudite and competent Christians have rightfully refused to engage a Minnesota State bird such as this because of the false prophet angle, and I acknowledge and salute their position. But like the purveyors of ‘Royanity’ that post every couple of weeks, these prophets of Baal need to be hammered and mocked.
“Faith Alone” isn’t true and you don’t want to discuss
Gospel verses that shows it is a lie, so the anger.
“Only to one who has been ‘stoogeified’ by the company they keep.”
I won’t accuse you of being a William F. Buckley type.
Brother, you just remarked, these are the “Last days.”
Then please answer the question. Which of thirty thousand plus Protestant sects is Jesus returning to say is the true faith? You have to go further. God is not the author of confusion. He’s coming to bring all people to one belief.
The number, by itself, of non-Catholic Christian sects would make me run to the faith.
“Pio, the evangelical treatment of this is no secret. Faith will always, always, always result in some kind of work. If it did not, it would be like talking of a fire that burns but makes no heat.”
~ ~ ~
“Faith Alone” is not true and Faith doesn’t make you do
anything brother. You have to decide to do a “work” always.
This is why the non-Catholic Christian guys are so insulting and upset. They can’t reconcile a paragraph. It’s full Our Lord stating quite a few Protestant heresies are lies. Jesus doesn’t have to go on, He makes it clear
in a few words.
blessings,
Kevin’s website: http://hearhisheart.wordpress.com/
an excerpt fro the April 1, 2012 message:
Oh hear Me, My people. Why do you listen to the hirelings and false teachers and prophets? Did I not say in My word that not all that say to me ‘Lord’ ‘Lord’ shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, save those that do the will of the Father who is in heaven? Then why do you still go about doing your own will and tell yourselves that you are My bride? My people, you have been lied to by the enemy of your soul. Seek Me in these things. Surely I will reveal My truth to you. I love you, My dear children, and it is My desire that each of you share My throne with Me. But unfortunately only a remnant shall overcome. For too many have listened to the lies told by the FALSE shepherds and prophets. They speak of how you each are already cleansed and adorned in righteousness simply by your BELIEF on My name. These are all lies, My people. For does not My word say that he who DOES righteousness is righteous? Yes, My people, you are made righteous by your faith in Me, but it is FULLFILLED BY YOUR OBEDIENCE to My voice. IT IS NOT IMPUTED TO YOU BY A ONE-TIME CONFESSION OF MY NAME. Oh, My people, you have been lied to. Read My word for yourselves. Why listen to those that fatten themselves by fleecing My sheep? I have not sent many of the shepherds that are out there. They have sent themselves for their own glory and their own profit. Oh, My people, did I not say in My word to judge them by their fruit? Then where is the fruit, My people? Oh, but those that have itching ears care not about the fruit. They want to be told all is well and that they shall PROSPER if they simply believe on My name and My promises. Lies, lies, lies, I tell you.
Some people don't read their reply posts, this has been asked and answered. When the answer didn't fit the Baalist paradigm, I guess it was discarded.
As to end times, the DR version of the Bible must have left out the admonition regarding the rise and proliferation of false prophets, but then it must have also omitted: Ephesians 2:7-9
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
No prob, noob, stick around, you'll see it alot.
If you’re always trying to tack “decided” works onto what you call your faith, friend, then it’s not saving faith. Saving faith moves you, and evangelicals know this.
P.S. Pio: yes of course it is possible to either stifle or grow faith by choices... just as you can feed or smother a fire... but this is not the same thing as calling some dry assertion your faith and then piling up works in your own power to make affairs complete. If the two don’t connect in unity, then it isn’t saving faith. And saving faith always moves to something, just like the smallest fire still smolders.
Look guys, with all due respect, this whole line of reasoning about who’s siding with who on what issue and what malevolence it may or may not reveal is not only childish and slightly paranoid, IMHO, but it may even be a violation of the spirit of 1 Cor 13:
1Cor 13:4-7 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; [5] does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; [6] does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; [7] bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
And ….
Prov 17:9 He who covers a transgression seeks love, But he who repeats a matter separates friends.
So what I see happening, as a relative newcomer to these debates, is Team C looking for reasons, no matter how remote, to trash talk Team P, when in reality every player is just a unique individual who entered and participated in the debate as they saw fit on a given day. Maybe they let one person go because they were so focused on another line of thought they just didn’t want to deal with multiple fronts. That’s not malicious intent, and it’s not “everybody who isn’t us is conspiring against us.” It’s just, what looks good on the menu today, and how much can I spend. That’s it.
So I’d call finding these allegedly nefarious patterns nothing more than selective perception. Some here are, um, so deeply cocooned in their own view of the world that everything on the outside looks the same to them. Sort of like when you visit a foreign country and all the natives “look alike.” That’s because your perceptual apparatus isn’t taking in all the real detail, just selecting things you can handle. And it skews your understanding of what you’re looking at.
And there’s no shame in it. It happens to all of us. It’s human nature. We compulsively filter the world and remake it into something we can handle. And that’s where love comes in. Jesus said we should love each other as we love ourselves. That’s not just a theoretical “I want you to be saved” love. That’s a “how can I make your life better today” love. One thing I like to do is forget about wrongs done to me, because that’s what I’d like others to do for me. And that’s helpful, because it means each next step in a relationship is a potential new beginning, the prospect of something better to come.
No, I’m not going to be stupid and waste my valuable time and effort on people who don’t really want to interact with me. Life is too short for that meaningless little game. But neither am I going to be looking for evil intent where there is none. That is also a complete waste of the vigor of life.
So my aim is this, to speak the truth to the best of my understanding, to speak it in love to the best of my ability, and to trust God and not myself for the outcome.
Well, that’s all I have to say on the matter. Let the food fight resume.
Peace & Love (no I am not a hippie and my hair isn’t that long either.)
SR
I owe you a reply, but have become involved, albeit very slightly, in a nearby food fight. When I have cleaned up, I will return to our envigorating conversation. Probably tomorrow morning or thereabouts. Thank you for your patience.
Peace,
SR
“If you’re always trying to tack “decided” works onto what you call your faith, friend, then it’s not saving faith. Saving faith moves you, and evangelicals know this.”
~ ~ ~
Hi, you’re back to that false “faith alone.” You, me, we’re not robots. Faith doesn’t make you do anything. Plenty of people with faith have fallen and acted terribly, committed mortal sin. It is free will choice with the help of God’s grace to decide to do a “work.”
I am no writer, here is what I said, better explained.
Some Protestants insist that it is the faith that does the work in us not we ourselves. Faith (God’s gift to man through His Word / Eph 2:8; Rom 10: 17) is a necessary motivation for us to obey but it DOES NOT make us obey. Man has a choice to resist or yield, therefore the obedience is our responsibility. It is our OBEDIENCE IN RESPONSE to faith that brings justification (and Eternal Life). Justification then brings “perfect” or “complete” faith, the proof we have that Eternal Life (See John 3:36!). Further, Eternal Life is something we possess in degrees and that corresponds to how close we have grown to Christ. It is Eternal Life we are given not a promise of the eternal possession of that life. That Life, however, is so powerful that nothing in all the universe, but one’s own self will and sin, can remove us from Christ’s hand (Romans 8:35-39).
faith does not guarantee a perfect walk on earth. you have set up a straw man. faith always burns with works of some sort, however, whether they are only small ones that scarcely anyone but God can see, or large ones that are obvious to all men.
it sounds like what you are calling your own, personal faith is generating no works. the love from Christ when accepted will always move in your heart. it will not guarantee a perfect walk, but it will always move.
Yeah, I’ve heard (right here from Episcopalians on another thread) that the Episcopal Church is a groovy place to go now!
p.s. your “obedience in response” is at best ambiguous. is the obedience actually rooted in the faith (in which case we’d be actually talking about the same thing in different words) — or in our own human fallen self-efforts to prove that what we’ve called our faith means something.
it’s not nearly as hard as you are making it out to be. it’s the love from Christ that when accepted ignites faith, from which works come. the Lord gives you some control over the size of the faith in you, but only the Lord can actually effect its presence.
Tell me was it you xone? Someone said Jesus is returning
to say Baptists have the true faith. We’re all going to
become Baptists. And I asked...Southern Baptists? There
are various sects (denominations) of Baptists.
Ephesians 2:7-10
That he might shew in the ages to come the abundant riches of his grace, in his bounty towards us in Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; [9] Not of works, that no man may glory. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.
[9] Not of works: as of our own growth, or from ourselves; but as from the grace of God.
Repeating yourself, sorry, these verses from Ephesians have been explained already. Paul is not talking about Luther’s “Faith Alone”, look at his words in context. He’s speaking of God’s grace, anything you do apart from God’s “grace” will not save you. Paul means our own works, not Luther’s mistaken no works!
The Apostles, the first Christians never taught “faith alone”, it’s from Martin Luther.
“it’s not nearly as hard as you are making it out to be. it’s the love from Christ that when accepted ignites faith, FROM WHICH WORKS COME. the Lord gives you SOME CONTROL over the size of the faith in you, but only the Lord can actually effect its presence.”
~ ~ ~
God does not make you do anything. Any kind of “control”
would not be true love.
There is more than faith required. Your same and not to be mean, vague “from which works come.”
Where does one’s free will come in? You have to choose to act on the faith God has given you. How about the better explanation I just posted and in it, so important to you all, other Scripture verses to confirm.
blessings,
“faith does not guarantee a perfect walk on earth. you have set up a straw man. FAITH always burns WITH WORKS of some sort, however, whether they are only small ones that scarcely anyone but God can see, or large ones that are obvious to all men.”
~ ~ ~
I think you are going to say “yes” at the time of the Great
Warning. You state a Truth, you include two words together “faith and works.” Martin Luther said it is “faith” alone.
You me nothing. I feel like I benefit from the give and take discussions I’ve had and trust the other poster does too.
I only have a short amount of time at any one setting so this works out well for me.
I have deliberately used Luther’s preferred analogy when likening it to a fire. (I’m not a Lutheran.)
But a fire is a unitary phenomenon. That’s what I’m getting at. If you have a fire, it consumes fuel and air, and it brings forth heat and light. Likewise the faith-works duality is a united phenomenon. What evangelicals protest is a sort of false “churchianity” which makes dry assertions then tries in a humanly power to show how good it is. This was a bigger problem with Roman congregations in Luther’s day than it is now.
Another example of not really knowing the truth of what you state.
From http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/Reformation_faith_works.html
“In his Introduction to Romans, Luther stated that saving faith is,
a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever...Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! [http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-faith.txt]
This is what I have often said, if faith be true, it will break forth and bear fruit. If the tree is green and good, it will not cease to blossom forth in leaves and fruit. It does this by nature. I need not first command it and say: Look here, tree, bear apples. For if the tree is there and is good, the fruit will follow unbidden. If faith is present works must follow.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:340-341]
“We must therefore most certainly maintain that where there is no faith there also can be no good works; and conversely, that there is no faith where there are no good works. Therefore faith and good works should be so closely joined together that the essence of the entire Christian life consists in both.” [Martin Luther, as cited by Paul Althaus, The Theology of Martin Luther [Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1963], 246, footnote 99]
What Augustine says is indeed true: He who has created you without yourself will not save you without yourself. Works are necessary for salvation, but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life. For the sake of hypocrites it should be said that good works are necessary for salvation. Works must be done, but it does not follow from this that works save… Works save externally, that is, they testify that we are just and that in a man there is that faith which saves him internally, as Paul says: ‘With the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation’.” [What Luther Says 3: 1509]. [Ewald M. Plass, “What Luther says,” page 1509]
“Thus faith casts itself on God, and breaks forth and becomes certain through its works. When this takes place a person becomes known to me and to other people. For when I thus break forth I spare neither man nor devil, I cast myself down, and will have nothing to do with lofty affairs, and will regard myself as the poorest sinner on earth. This assures me of my, faith. For this is what it says: "This man went down to his house justified." Thus we attribute salvation as the principal thing to faith, and works as the witnesses of faith. They make one so certain that he concludes from the outward life that the faith is genuine.”[Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:341]
“Thus, faith must be exercised, worked and polished; be purified by fire, like gold. Faith, the great gift and treasure from God, must express itself and triumph in the certainty that it is right before God and man, and before angels, devils and the whole world. Just as a jewel is not to be concealed, but to be worn in sight, so also, will and must faith be worn and exhibited, as it is written in 1 Peter 1, 7: "That the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire," etc.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2:245-246]
In those therefore in whom we cannot realize good works, we can immediately say and conclude: they heard of faith, but it did not sink into good soil. For if you continue in pride and lewdness, in greed and anger, and yet talk much of faith, St. Paul will come and say, 1 Cor. 4:20, look here my dear Sir, "the kingdom of God is not in word but in power." It requires life and action, and is not brought about by mere talk.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:341-342]
“All believers are like poor Lazarus; and every believer is a true Lazarus, for he is of the same faith, mind and will, as Lazarus. And whoever will not be a Lazarus, will surely have his portion with the rich glutton in the flames of hell. For we all must like Lazarus trust in God, surrender ourselves to him to work in us according to his own good pleasure, and be ready to serve all men. And although we all do not suffer from such sores and poverty, yet the same mind and will must be in us, that were in Lazarus, cheerfully to bear such things, wherever God wills it.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:25]
“This is why St. Luke and St. James have so much to say about works, so that one says: Yes, I will now believe, and then he goes and fabricates for himself a fictitious delusion, which hovers only on the lips as the foam on the water. No, no; faith is a living and an essential thing, which makes a new creature of man, changes his spirit and wholly and completely converts him. It goes to the foundation and there accomplishes a renewal of the entire man; so, if I have previously seen a sinner, I now see in his changed conduct, manner and life, that he believes. So high and great a thing is faith.”[Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:341]
“Works are a certain sign, like a seal on a letter, which make me certain that my faith is genuine. [cf. 1Jn. 5:13] As a result if I examine my heart and find that my works are done in love, then I am certain that my faith is genuine. If I forgive, then my forgiving makes me certain that my faith is genuine and assures me and demonstrates my faith to me.” [Martin Luther, as cited by Paul Althaus, The Theology of Martin Luther [Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1963], 247, footnote 106]
“Hence the beginning of goodness or Godliness is not in us, but in the Word of God. God must first let his Word sound in our hearts by which we learn to know and to believe him, and afterwards do good works.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:339]
“When works follow it becomes apparent that we have faith…” [Martin Luther, as cited by Paul Althaus, The Theology of Martin Luther [Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1963], 247, footnote 106
“..that alone can be called Christian faith, which believes without wavering that Christ is the Saviour not only to Peter and to the saints but also to you....Such a faith will work in you love for Christ and joy in him, and good works will naturally follow. If they do not, faith is surely not present: for where faith is, there the Holy Ghost is and must work love and good works.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 1:21-22]
“For it is impossible for him who believes in Christ, as a just Savior, not to love and to do good. If, however, he does not do good nor love, it is sure that faith is not present. Therefore man knows by the fruits what kind of a tree it is, and it is proved by love and deed whether Christ is in him and he believes in Christ. As St. Peter says in 2 Pet. 1, 10: "Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure; for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble," that is, if you bravely practice good works you will be sure and cannot doubt that God has called and chosen you.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 1:40]
“But here we must take to heart the good example of Christ in that he appeals to his works, even as the tree is known by its fruits, thus rebuking all false teachers, the pope, bishops, priests and monks to appear in the future and shield themselves by his name, saying, "We are Christians;" just as the pope is boasting that he is the vicar of Christ. Here we have it stated that where the works are absent, there is also no Christ. Christ is a living, active and fruit- bearing character who does not rest, but works unceasingly wherever he is. Therefore, those bishops and teachers that are not doing the works of Christ, we should avoid and consider as wolves.”[Sermons of Martin Luther 1:93]
Christ is the priest, all men are spiritual lepers because of unbelief; but when we come to faith in him he touches us With his hand, gives and lays upon us his merit and we become clean and whole without any merit on our part whatever. We are therefore to show our gratitude to him and acknowledge that we have not become pious by our own works, but through his grace, then our course will be right before God...[Sermons of Luther 1:152]
“For if your heart is in the state of faith that you know your God has revealed himself to you to be so good and merciful, without thy merit, and purely gratuitously, while you were still his enemy and a child of eternal wrath; if you believe this, you cannot refrain from showing yourself so to your neighbor; and do all out of love to God and for the welfare of your neighbor. Therefore, see to it that you make no distinction between friend and foe, the worthy and the unworthy; for you see that all who were here mentioned, have merited from us something different than that we should love and do them good. And the Lord also teaches this, when in Luke 6:35 he says: "But love your enemies, and do good unto them, and lend, never despairing; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be sons of the Most High: for he is kind toward the unthankful and evil." [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:101]
“Therefore we must close our eyes, not look at our works, whether they be great, small, honorable, contemptible, spiritual, temporal or what kind of an appearance and name they may have upon earth; but look to the command and to the obedience in the works. Do they govern you, then the work also is truly right and precious, and completely godly, although it springs forth as insignificant as a straw. However, if obedience and God’s commandments do not dominate you, then the work is not right, but damnable, surely the devil’s own doings, although it were even so great a work as to raise the dead...And St. Peter says, Ye are to be as faithful, good shepherds or administrators of the manifold grace of God; so that each one may serve the other, and be helpful to him by means of what he has received, 1 Peter 4:10. See, here Peter says the grace and gifts of God are not one but manifold, and each is to tend to his own, develop the same and through them be of service to others.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 1:244]
In addition, upon hearing that he was being charged with rejection of the Old Testament moral law, Luther responded,
And truly, I wonder exceedingly, how it came to be imputed to me, that I should reject the Law or ten Commandments, there being extant so many of my own expositions (and those of several sorts) upon the Commandments, which also are daily expounded, and used in our Churches, to say nothing of the Confession and Apology, and other books of ours. Martin Luther, ["A Treatise against Antinomians, written in an Epistolary way", http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_against_the_antinomians.html]
“What you’ve described is God, the Father with His son acting at his behest and direction as his agent.”
I have provided and referred to far more than your minimization of Christ, as the the collective attributions and descriptions of the Son exclude Him from merely being a created agent, but God by nature, who Himself defines what “one” means, as the “US” who made man, and who created all things by Himself, (Is. 44:24) even (in distinguishing Him not angels) the incomparable God (Is. 46:9) who made heaven and earth by His hands, (Heb. 1:8-12; Ps. 102:25-27) the Almighty. (Rv. 1:8)
But as you ignore such and use the hierarchy of order to reduce Christ to a mere angel-type agent, and reject Him as being both your Lord and your God, (Jn. 20:28) and then i leave you to bow before Him as God when He will be uniquely worshiped by all creation, (Rv. 5:11-14) by many as an acknowledgment of fact, not salvific faith.
For about the bazillionth time.....
They are NOT *our own prophets*.
Nobody on this thread, some Catholics included, recognize as valid anything those false prophets have to say or accept what they have to say as from God.
Anyone who does is being deceived and is on the wide road to destruction.
Take note....
We are warning you that you’re listening to lies if you think that what these guys have to say is from God.
What a wonderful and edifying collection of statements on the evangelical understanding of the relationship between faith and works in the life of the believer. Thank you!
Peace,
SR
This is where your and many other Catholics main error is.
We accept CHRIST, not "the faith". There's a world of difference between faith and "the faith".
Putting your faith in your "faith" is not going to save you. Faith is the means by which we are saved, it's the mechanism through which we are saved. We're not saved by our faith in our faith when that is just another word for the church we belong to. We are saved by grace through faith IN CHRIST.
It's Christ who saves us. If your faith is in your faith, you are trusting the wrong thing. You need to trust a person, Christ, not your ability to have faith.
Your false prophet is a liar.
Ephesians 2:1-10 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions —it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Romans 10:6-13 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Amen. So few words, so much said. It sums it up well. Salvation is only found by “looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith,” not the other way around.
May God bless your labor of love in him.
Peace,
SR
err... who exactly is Kevin Barrett? And why is he a prophet?
But it is no such thing to Paul, who wrote under inspiration of that spirit and truthfully said,
“There is us to us one God, the Father, out (ek) of whom all things are, and we for Him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through (dia) whom all things are, and we through him”.
The Father is the origin and the Son is His agent, his channel. The Father is the “one God”, God the Father, not God the Son. (1 Cor. 8:6)
Paul goes on to call Christ “the image (eikon) of the invisible God,” the same word Jesus used when pointing to Caesar’s image on a coin.
(Col. 1:15)
Christ is the “firstborn of all creation” and John records what the Amen says of Christ: “...the beginning (arche) of the creation by God”. (Rev.3:14)
The language is not complicated or esoteric as it uses common terms known to all.
But are not the Father, Son and Spirit One as Jesus said he and his father were one?
Jesus prayed to the one he called “my God” and requested that his followers “may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they may be in union with us...in order that they be one just as we are one” (John 17:21,22)
Then why would Jesus be called all the titles he was, even being called a god? Jesus said all judging had been given him by the Father so that’
“....in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father...”.
The honor of Father and Son was bound together. (John 5:23)
Abraham, Moses, Jacob could speak to representatives or agents of God in the first person as though they were God Himself and properly so if one understands the full significance of agency in the Scriptures.
““What you’ve described is God, the Father with His son acting at his behest and direction as his agent.”
Yes, that is what I said and that cannot be made “mere”.
Would that ONE true faith be Roman Catholic?
Or Ukrainian Catholic?
Or Russian Orthodox?
Or Greek Orthodox?
Pre- Vatican II or post-Vatican II?
Or Byzantine rite?
Or Armenian rite?
Or Benedictine rite?
Or Dominican?
Or Franciscan?
Exactly which flavor of Catholic is the one true faith?
Good questions because I most certainly have never heard of him before and am not going to be accepting any claim of him or anyone else being a prophet just on some anonymous internet poster's say so.
And I do not and will not trust some self-proclaimed prophet based their own claims about themselves. Anyone can say anything and without any credible, outside source validating them, it's all meaningless.
Google “kevin barrett” “openheaven”
Then study the openheaven group. It’s an eye-opener. Good link here:
http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain45.htm
Puts Swedenborg’s supernatural cavorting to shame, a mere piker compared to these guys
Sorry I can’t do more. I have a lousy internet connection today.
Bottom line, looks like someone saw “posted by” and mistook it for “prophet.” That’d never happen to us here of course.
Peace,
SR
“For about the bazillionth time.....
They are NOT *our own prophets*.
Nobody on this thread, some Catholics included, recognize as valid anything those false prophets have to say or accept what they have to say as from God.”
~ ~ ~
Oh metmom,
God prepares, warns and helps strengthen the faithful with prophecy. You choose to reject prophecy. Post a current message from Heaven you approve of then.
You don’t like what Our Lord said to Kevin, he’s not
Catholic, he’s a non-Catholic Christian. He receives teaching messages. It’s so ridiculous, you Martin Luther fans will not touch the message and say why it is false. Christ totally and repeatedly shows you why “Faith Alone” is a lie. Quit believing the heresies.
Sola Fide is not true, the “altar call” does not justify, the “prosperity gospel” is a lie.
Kevin’s website: http://hearhisheart.wordpress.com/
an excerpt fro the April 1, 2012 message:
Oh hear Me, My people. Why do you listen to the hirelings and false teachers and prophets? Did I not say in My word that not all that say to me ‘Lord’ ‘Lord’ shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, save those that do the will of the Father who is in heaven? Then why do you still go about doing your own will and tell yourselves that you are My bride? My people, you have been lied to by the enemy of your soul. Seek Me in these things. Surely I will reveal My truth to you. I love you, My dear children, and it is My desire that each of you share My throne with Me. But unfortunately only a remnant shall overcome. For too many have listened to the lies told by the FALSE shepherds and prophets. They speak of how you each are already cleansed and adorned in righteousness simply by your BELIEF on My name. These are all lies, My people. For does not My word say that he who DOES righteousness is righteous? Yes, My people, you are made righteous by your faith in Me, but it is FULLFILLED BY YOUR OBEDIENCE to My voice. IT IS NOT IMPUTED TO YOU BY A ONE-TIME CONFESSION OF MY NAME. Oh, My people, you have been lied to. Read My word for yourselves. Why listen to those that fatten themselves by fleecing My sheep? I have not sent many of the shepherds that are out there. They have sent themselves for their own glory and their own profit. Oh, My people, did I not say in My word to judge them by their fruit? Then where is the fruit, My people? Oh, but those that have itching ears care not about the fruit. They want to be told all is well and that they shall PROSPER if they simply believe on My name and My promises. Lies, lies, lies, I tell you.
“I have deliberately used Luther’s preferred analogy when likening it to a fire. (I’m not a Lutheran.)
But a fire is a unitary phenomenon. That’s what I’m getting at. If you have a fire, it consumes fuel and air, and it brings forth heat and light. Likewise the faith-works duality is a united phenomenon. What evangelicals protest is a sort of false “churchianity” which makes dry assertions then tries in a humanly power to show how good it is. This was a bigger problem with Roman congregations in Luther’s day than it is now.”
~ ~ ~
Why do you use any example of Martin Luther? The man has
a horrid history, he was not a holy man.
I don’t know if it’s the right word “duality” but if you mean the two are required for Salvation, yes, it’s both faith and works. I agree, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-10, not by our own works which is a false show of being good, rather, it’s deciding to do a work, a genuine work, a good with God’s help, His grace.
Evangelicals and most Protestants protest more than a fake show of works, you all profess works are not required for
Salvation.
You mentioned false acts of goodness in Luther’s time because the true faith existed then, there wasn’t Protestantism yet, it was just beginning. You have your own, one example, the “Toronto blessing”. About “false Churchanity.” Non-Catholics accept some rituals in the Old Testament, God desires certain rituals, the most pleasing to Him, the holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
“My friend, the current respondent claims word from our Lord, that are of course finished by ‘Love to All, Jesus’. Since I’m not Paul, I would still love to hear or read his words to one such as this. I assume nothing, other than the poster is a ‘fake?’ catholic, that relies upon latter day prophecy that plays to catholic or protestant in turn depending on the audience.”
~ ~ ~
Our Lord wants you to become Roman Catholic and is personally going to reveal this to you and all souls in the Great Warning. (Rev 6:15-17).
Your error, it’s kinda funny, you’ll bring up the closing
of the message, Jesus saying love but won’t say a word about what is wrong with the message. I wonder why, no one has yet.
And if you go to the message, Jesus does not end say “Love
to All, Jesus.”
http://hearhisheart.wordpress.com/
Protest as you do, Kevin is a non-Catholic Christian.
Is that all part of what is called the New Apostolic Reformation?
WRONG! He does it through Scripture.
If that's what you really believe, then it goes to show that you also reject the authority of the Catholic church you claim to be part of.
I have already posted a message from heaven of which I approve. It's called Scripture.
I'd go further and say he's not even a Christian.
He's an agent of the Deceiver.
We've been warned about those like him in Scripture. You need to take the warning to heart.
1. About Revelation 3:14.
As for Rev 3:14, you’re right, the meaning of the text is not esoteric. But neither should these words be forced to say things the inspired writer didn’t actually say.
For example, the passage reads:
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Note the last clause. The word “arche” is used. Per the Louw-Nida lexicon, arche can mean any number of things, depending on the semantic context:
a beginning (aspect): 68.1
b beginning (time): 67.65
c first cause: 89.16
d sphere of authority: 37.55
e ruler: 37.56
f supernatural power: 12.44
g elementary aspect: 58.20
h corner: 79.106
You can see that “arche” always has to do with primacy of some sort, but the exact kind of primacy must be determined by context. Given what we learned from John 1:3, that God through John does not want us to consider Jesus a created being (remember, the text explicitly confirms that all created beings without exception are in fact creations of Jesus, and you have not refuted this) we know that the primacy of arche here has to do with either authority or causation (see semantic category 3 above), or even perhaps both.
And so the passage could as easily read:
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the [first cause,source,origin] of the creation of God;
Bottom line, John 1:3 remains your obstacle to any theory of creature-Creator agency relationship. The creature you need to have in place does not exist until Jesus creates him. He is an undocumented creature. You have yet to refute this.
2. On Agency
But you may say, well, what about having some statement somewhere that Jesus and God are indeed the same being? Wouldn’t you need to have that to discredit the idea of agency?
No, because your agency theory breaks down all by itself in the light of Scripture. Agency, when it occurs in the Bible as related to God, has certain properties. The angel in Revelation is a great example. You notice what happens when John gets confused and begins to treat the agent as being fully the principal:
Rev 22:8-9 “And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. [9] Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.”
What are those last two words? Worship God. Any creature who is an agent of God MUST refuse worship, for only God may be worshipped. Or do you wish have it suggested that God has instituted the heinous idolatry of angel worship? God forbid. I believe to a certainty you oppose idolatry.
As did the apostles, who were more than once accounted as gods among the pagans, and who uniformly reacted as did the angel of Revelation, refusing to accept worship that was due only to God. See Acts 10:25-27
This demonstrates an important fact about God. However willing he may be to delegate tasks to his creatures, he is careful that none be worshipped but himself:
>>>>>
Isa 48:11 “For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.”
And in all those creature-Creator agency relationships that the Bible actually documents, that is exactly how it works. But with Jesus there are new rules:
Mat 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
Mat 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. [3] And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
Mat 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live. [19] And Jesus arose, and followed him, and so did his disciples.
Mat 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God. [34] And when they were gone over, they came into the land of Gennesaret.
Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. [26] But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? [36] He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? [37] And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. [38] And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
Luk 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. [52] And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: [53] And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. [28] And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. [29] Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
<<<<<
So here’s your dilemma. If, as you have said, we must follow Scripture wherever it leads, and I agree with you on that, then it is imperative to resolve this apparent breakdown in your theory of agency, because Jesus is righteous and if he were a righteous creature, he would have in every instance above refused to accept the worship due only to God.
To worship less than God is what idolatry is by definition, and a righteous creature, no matter how lofty, could not insult the glory of God by receiving worship. God does not give his glory to another. If Jesus was a mere creature, and accepted worship, he would be a defective agent, acting out of scope to his duties, and not serving the stated purposes of the principal, thus making himself morally inferior to the apostles and the angels, and that is impossible.
3. On John 1:1
Nevertheless, because God knows we are prone to ignore the obvious, he has provided us with an unmistakable way-marker in John 1:1. Of course I agree capitalization is something the translator does. However, the caps chosen for this verse are well within the bounds of reasonable translation practice, as the Logos is clearly Christ by simply reading the passage as a whole.
Furthermore, John makes sure the reader understands that the Logos is not a pure identity of or quality of God, by stating that he was with God:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The personal identity of the Word is made crystal clear in John 1:14, where the Word becomes flesh and dwells among us. This is the same being who was both with God and was God, per John 1:1.
But what about the so-called missing definite article in the third clause? Is the NWT correct to translate it “a god,” as opposed to God? No, it is a patent mistranslation. Ask your expert AT Robertson. Put in short form, the word order plays a big role in the Greek, and confirms the traditional Trinitarian translation. Here’s the clause:
kai theos en ho logos
In literal sequence:
And God he was, the Word.
The comma is supplied because the subject is confirmed to be Logos by the definite article “ho.” Therefore what John has done is emphasize Christ’s deity by pushing it to the front of the clause, what is called the emphatic position. If he were a poster on FR, an equivalent rendering might look like this:
And !!!GOD!!! he was, the Word.
Emphatic indeed.
But why no definite article in front of “theos?” Because if, in Greek, he had said this:
The God is The Word…
He would have been establishing a textual basis for Modalism, where there is an absolute identity between God and Jesus. Basically, by leaving out the definite article on “theos,” he short-circuits the Oneness Pentecostals and all other such groups.
Alright you say, then why isn’t theos an indefinite object, as in one of many gods, as in the NWT? If it lacks the definite article, why can’t we just supply the indefinite article?
Because Greek just doesn’t have an indefinite article. If you want to know whether or not to use one, you have to look at each case one at a time, using the rules of common Greek usage to make your decision. And in this case, it’s not hard to figure out, not esoteric, as you say, but sitting right out there in plain sight.
For a quick demonstration of this, take a quick look at John 1:6, just a few verses below:
John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Now look at the Greek:
Egeneto anthropos apestalmenos para theos, onoma auto Iwannes
Notice “para theos.” It means “from God,” right? Not “from a god.” Else the passage would have to read:
John 1:6 There was a man sent from [a god,] whose name was John.???
So then what’s the rule? To be consistent with the proposed NWT rule that gave us the “a god” translation in John 1:1, that same rule should be applied equally in every case, should it not? But then we end up with a boatload of nonsense. How does John 1:12 read under the NWT rule?:
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of [a god], even to them that believe on his name: ???
Sounds positively Mormon to me. Or verse 13?
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but [a god]???
Or verse 18?
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen [a god] at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.???
Do you get the point? The NWT rule is utter nonsense, perpetrated on well-meaning people who haven’t a clue how Greek works and willing to believe what other people who haven’t a clue about how Greek works tell them how it should be. It’s a Greek tragedy. All the good verses die.
Well what’s left then, if not definite, and not indefinite? Ah, but we are not dealing with a strictly binary system here. This is Greek, home to some of the brightest minds in human history, and it has other possibilities.
In particular, when neither the definite nor the indefinite article applies, we are no longer talking strictly about objects, but have entered the realm of categories or classes of things. Thus, “theos” is metadata about Jesus. It describes the class of things he belongs to. Put another way, it is a qualitative assessment of who he is by his very nature. It asserts that he has the nature of God. That’s the class of beings to which he properly belongs, and as there is only one such being in that class by definition, the conclusion is irresistible. Jesus is God.
This is not rocket science. This is really what John said:
And the Word was !!!GOD!!!.
Conclusion:
Like you said, the word of God sometimes leads us to places we don’t expect and even places we don’t like. Here the word of God leads us to an unsolvable puzzle. How can God be one being, yet really three persons? It seems impossible. Yet there it is. Refute it if you can, but accept it if you cannot. Let God be true, but every man a liar.
Peace,
SR
I’m with you on that one metmom.
No, we actually don’t profess that. We actually agree with Jesus.
“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29
“Is that all part of what is called the New Apostolic Reformation?”
I believe so. I actually live next to a church where they have the so-called five-fold ministry. Basically, they refuse to recognize that the apostolic age is over. Furthermore, they have an eschatology that involves them conquering the political domain via spiritual warfare. Their apostles, so they say, are the eventual supernatural rulers of the new order coming. Latter Rain. Blues versus Grays. Grays are the people who think - gray matter, get it? - the grays are doomed to lose in the new order - not kidding. For neighbors I have this. Oy Vey!
"In July of 2011 the Lord began to give me warnings for His people to shake them awake so that they may prepare themselves (spiritually) for the days ahead and to enter His (spiritual) ark of rest. In response to that charge, I have begun this blog. "
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
There will be no further Revelation
66 "The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."28 Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.
67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called "private" revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ's definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.
Christian faith cannot accept "revelations" that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such "revelations".
Kevin Barrett's revelations do not belong to the deposit of the Faith. Furthermore, they cannot be judged valid until examined by the Church and declared valid. Therefore this Catholic must consider Kevin Barret's blog and writings invalid. I urge both Catholic and non Catholic alike, who are faithful to the Revelation of Christ, to reject this man's writings.
Appreciate the interjection. The convincing factor became the extensive ping list though.
Agreed. I just posted on the subject up a couple of posts.
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